Originally posted by Scot

Utter Drivel:

“Many people have remarked that this also feels like a great fit for the D&D IP. After all, when D&D got started this was the model: you bought the base rule book and then you would buy incremental content and miniatures and other ways to enhance your game play when you were ready.”

This is a MMO, not a table top game, you can’t compare it to buying books and miniatures, how ridiculous. Oh and roleplayers widely felt that the never ending new supplements, figures and editions were a con, does he mention that comparison?

Supposedly we hesitate at a monthly fee which is why the MMO industry needs to change to a RMT or a hybrid subscription/RMT revenue model. But it is acknowledged that RMT’s are not liked in the west. This is not about giving the customer what they want, it is about milking them for as much as possible.

AAA Premium does not equate with RMT’s. It shows the rot has set in no matter how they try to sell it.

I think DDOs buisness model is great and hope its the future of the industry (instead of what SOE and Cryptic are doing).

This is about flexibility, pay for what you play. How come MMOs have 0 flexibilty for paying when people have so differnt play styles? Why should someone playing 20 hours /month pay the same as someone playing 200 hours? This gives the customers options on what they want to play and when to get it. Its great for casual players and the hardcore players can stil get  a monthly sub which includes points for the store..

Turbine is giving away 1/3 of their game without cost, then you pay if you want more. I cant understand why people dont think that is great for the players! Seems like Turbine is the only company moving in the right direction in this industry...

I want to like this game, I really do.

I did like the way it is basically structured, a sort of wagon wheel with a central hub (Eberron) and an array of dungeon adventures branching off like spokes.
I did like the dungeons themselves.

But...

I tried out the 10-day free trial a couple of weeks ago and was sadly unimpressed and disappointed by the awkward UI, combat, overly complex stat system and feats, etc. Granted, I didn't get that far into the game--just through the starter area and a few dungeons after that. But still, it was not a very positive first impression.

I will still probably give this game another go once DDO:U goes online, but I think this would be a better F2P game if they sold Guild Wars-style heroes in the online store as account-wide unlocks. The hirelings are SO much lamer than Heroes (or even the henches in Guild Wars) that I hardly can compare the two. This game desperately needs AI that has at least a moderate amount of "I" ("intelligence") and that are customizable skillwise and that level up with your character. I'd be willing to pay actual dollars at the Online Store for a feature like this. Do you hear that, Turbine?

One of the things that was really nice about Guild Wars was its AI and the fact that you could just PLAY and not spend inordinate amounts of time building/finding a balanced party of human players. Any game that's to be played casually needs something comparable to what Guild Wars offers, imo. DDO, from what I could tell, needs improvement in this area.

Originally posted by AkumaDaimyo

Forget DDO, put a bullet in its head. Do something with 4th ed. I mean it's already like an MMO anyway isnt it? That's what all the crybabies were saying. So make an MMO of it and use a different setting, dont screw it up either. Eberron could have been cool but they screwed it up massively with DDO.

The 4th edition of D&D is a huge joke on the gaming population.  About the only thing you would see with a MMO based on that structure is heaps of ridicule.  Supposedly Cryptic has been secretly working on such a project.  If such is the case I will be ready with the skeptical comments on such an effort.

Trying to fit a D&D ruleset into a MMO setting is like putting sugar in your gas tank.   Attempting to put something into a environment it was never intended for is questionable at best.  Forcing a square peg in a round hole just shows lack of brain activity.

Turbine's failure was taking on this project to begin with.  I don't think anyone could have done much better with this game.

---

But...

I tried out the 10-day free trial a couple of weeks ago and was sadly unimpressed and disappointed by the awkward UI, combat, overly complex stat system and feats, etc. Granted, I didn't get that far into the game--just through the starter area and a few dungeons after that. But still, it was not a very positive first impression.

---

This is the way D&D is, and by extension, DDO. It's a very complex system. Very complex combat mechanics. I don't say this in any way as an elitist statement, just as a matter of factly. DDO has gone to great lengths to lower the learning curve so that people new to the D&D lore can get a good head start. However, unless you follow their predefined, cookie-cutter builds, as a new player you have so many options (and many pitfalls) that is *VERY* easy to gimp your toon permanently -- that is, until they introduce re-spec.

Godspeed.

If you didn't like the game before there is still no reason to like it now just because of the no monthly fee. Turbine still uses the same old crappy game engine and combat is still horrible. 

Originally posted by Bleakmage

Originally posted by tro44_1 

That wasnt my point. For many people, using a credit card online (If You have one, which a lot of kids wont) is a no no.

I was pointing out that most youth dont have a way to pay for online games without prepaid cards (X-box Live, WoW Cards, War Cards, ext)

 

I dunno, I've always felt that I've HAD to play a subscription game to get my money's worth. Some games I've played for multiple months before, but most I've played for about a month and quit because I did not think I was getting my money's worth.

 

With this new model, D&D IS like, in many ways, the old-school Pen and Paper days, but not only that, I wouldn't feel like I HAD to play. I feel like going further in the game? I just buy a module. They will make plenty of money that way, and I will not feel RUSHED. Not everybody has money to burn on something they can't dedicate their time to like their were living in mommy's garage. :D

Bleakmage that's the kind of thoughts that baffle me. Assuming you have cable or sat tv, do you feel like you're cheating yourself if you don't watch enough tv each month since you're paying for it? Or that you have to use each cell phone minute each month?

To me it doesn't matter how much I play if it's something I do for fun and as a hobby. If I go out drinking one friday night I guarantee I spend more then the monthly subscription fee for an MMO, and that's just a few hours of one night. So if I only got around to playing that MMO for a few hours over the whole month it seems to cover the cost pretty easy. $15 is cheap for just about anything in my mind so I've never in all my years of playing MMOs (since before UO on through current times) felt that I had to play a certain amount or I had to cancel. If I enjoy a game I keep it subbed and play here and there and have fun.

Of course throwing in the cliche of the parent's garage isn't necessary. Especially since the average MMO player is well past that age and isn't struggling to pay $15 a month.

As to tro44 the funny thing I picked out of your quote was to some people paying online with a credit card is a no no, well those people are going to be screwed in a few more years. More and more businesses are focusing at the online component and closing retail stores because it's cheaper and easier for everyone involved. So if a person really feels that they can't use a credit card online, well they are going to be in a world of hurt.

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

The part that always gets me is the statement of how a sub fee is a large barrier to players. I know it's true but it always baffles me. People buy $60 console and $50 computer games non stop, but when the concept of $15 a month comes in they freak out and don't want to do it. I can't think of a cheaper hobby to be honest, every other hobby is far more expensive then $15 a month so why are there so many people who get all wrapped up in that aspect of MMOs?

 

I guess I'll just never get it, I do prefer sub games and I think it was smart of DDO to offer a sub model along side of the store model. Will be interesting to see the number of players this pulls in.

Also, with a monthly subscription, many people feel compelled to play more often to get their money's worth. If you are only playing the game 3-4 times a month, then it is not really worth $15 for most sane people. If you spend $60 on a brand new single player title, you have the rest of your life to play it as often or as seldom as you like and it only costed you the $60. Same with multiplayer shooter games. They are free to play once you buy the game.

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

Originally posted by Bleakmage

Originally posted by tro44_1 

That wasnt my point. For many people, using a credit card online (If You have one, which a lot of kids wont) is a no no.

I was pointing out that most youth dont have a way to pay for online games without prepaid cards (X-box Live, WoW Cards, War Cards, ext)

 

I dunno, I've always felt that I've HAD to play a subscription game to get my money's worth. Some games I've played for multiple months before, but most I've played for about a month and quit because I did not think I was getting my money's worth.

 

With this new model, D&D IS like, in many ways, the old-school Pen and Paper days, but not only that, I wouldn't feel like I HAD to play. I feel like going further in the game? I just buy a module. They will make plenty of money that way, and I will not feel RUSHED. Not everybody has money to burn on something they can't dedicate their time to like their were living in mommy's garage. :D

 

Bleakmage that's the kind of thoughts that baffle me. Assuming you have cable or sat tv, do you feel like you're cheating yourself if you don't watch enough tv each month since you're paying for it? Or that you have to use each cell phone minute each month?

 

To me it doesn't matter how much I play if it's something I do for fun and as a hobby. If I go out drinking one friday night I guarantee I spend more then the monthly subscription fee for an MMO, and that's just a few hours of one night. So if I only got around to playing that MMO for a few hours over the whole month it seems to cover the cost pretty easy. $15 is cheap for just about anything in my mind so I've never in all my years of playing MMOs (since before UO on through current times) felt that I had to play a certain amount or I had to cancel. If I enjoy a game I keep it subbed and play here and there and have fun.

 

Of course throwing in the cliche of the parent's garage isn't necessary. Especially since the average MMO player is well past that age and isn't struggling to pay $15 a month.

 

As to tro44 the funny thing I picked out of your quote was to some people paying online with a credit card is a no no, well those people are going to be screwed in a few more years. More and more businesses are focusing at the online component and closing retail stores because it's cheaper and easier for everyone involved. So if a person really feels that they can't use a credit card online, well they are going to be in a world of hurt.

Good point, but these MMOs these days really aren't offering much more than the single player or F2P RPGs and FPS offer. Server maintainance and data storage is about the only difference. Nothing I would consider an actual service. You are basically paying for the privelage, something that many video gamers feel should be free.

Originally posted by SaintViktor

and combat is still horrible. 

Big words from a Guild Wars fan where the combat is absolutely passive and mindless.

Honestly,

I do not like F2P games because of the Fact that MMORPG's tend to be addictive, not unlike a virtual drug, and F2P, are not really free, as depending on the game there is items and elements of the game that you will have to buy in order to be able to be as successfull as other players. So it becomes like if the Company that owns the F2P game plays the Role of the Pusher for the Virtual Drug, if you pay you get a dose...if you do not you are invaded by symptoms of withdrawal as you see everyone around you enjoying themselves in the bliss... (Peer pressure kinda plays a more important role in the F2P formula also in my opinion)...

As for those that will say, F2P is about giving the choice to the player, I would argue that the choice is the same as when you go out for a Casino night with friends and family...when everyone else is playing you can't just sit around and look at them... really there is not choice under that circumstance.

That being said...

D&D having gone F2P, actually made me want to give it a try, and will probably end up playing it for a long time, I think the F2P approach just fits with this game...and any microtransactions involved would be the same as investing in a new rulebook or a new figurine or some type of materials for use as a map etc in the Tabletop.

You can play it with your friends once or twice a week gathering every week end and going on an adventure, it is not like the other MMORPG's, and that is why I think it fits with the F2P approach,  (if you are wondering how I know some of its aspects it is because I have friends who did play it when it launched the first time, and they are equally happy that it is going F2P).

So, I am going to have my first long term F2P introduction with this one...and looking forward to it :)

Originally posted by toord

Originally posted by SaintViktor

and combat is still horrible. 

 

Big words from a Guild Wars fan where the combat is absolutely passive and mindless.

Guild Wars is a quality f2p game. It has won a bazilion types of awards, sold over 6 mill copies and has argueably one of the best pvp systems. DDO on the other hand is suffering will all sorts of bad issues. So to save face, Turbine thinks by making it f2p is a better alternative rather than making the gameplay alot better for its players. Typical company who only thinks about squeezing the last dime from its players wish a cash shop rather than giving them a quality game to be proud of.

In regards to being F2P: I've looked on the site but couldn't find a definitive answer and I was hoping for some clarification.

For new players, will the free content be absolutely free or will we still be required to purchase the base game? If the base game must be "bought" then how much will it be?

Any insight is highly appreciated. Thank you.

Originally posted by FlaFringe

In regards to being F2P: I've looked on the site but couldn't find a definitive answer and I was hoping for some clarification.

For new players, will the free content be absolutely free or will we still be required to purchase the base game? If the base game must be "bought" then how much will it be?

Any insight is highly appreciated. Thank you.

The game download is completely free and you'll be able to play entirely for free until you hit level 4. At that point you either were fortunate enough to have looted a leveling sigil or buy one at the RMT store in order to advance levels. After that it gets really dicey with respect to free content -- this is a hotly debated subject in their forums. In essence, IMO, it boils down to: at level 4 you'll have to decide whether you like the game and go VIP or be nickel and dimed for content packages and leveling sigils.

Peace.

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Originally posted by toord

Originally posted by SaintViktor

and combat is still horrible. 

 

Big words from a Guild Wars fan where the combat is absolutely passive and mindless.

 

Guild Wars is a quality f2p game. It has won a bazilion types of awards, sold over 6 mill copies and has argueably one of the best pvp systems. DDO on the other hand is suffering will all sorts of bad issues. So to save face, Turbine thinks by making it f2p is a better alternative rather than making the gameplay alot better for its players. Typical company who only thinks about squeezing the last dime from its players wish a cash shop rather than giving them a quality game to be proud of.

That is humorous coming from a Guildwars fan.  Sorry to break your bubble but Guildwars is not and never will be a MMO  to most of us.  Since the majority of us here don't pvp much, DDO is a far better game than Guildwars will ever be.  

I am glad you have found a game to enjoy, but demeaning a genre you have a lack of understanding is beneath you.

Originally posted by Ozmodan

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Originally posted by toord

Originally posted by SaintViktor

and combat is still horrible. 

 

Big words from a Guild Wars fan where the combat is absolutely passive and mindless.

 

Guild Wars is a quality f2p game. It has won a bazilion types of awards, sold over 6 mill copies and has argueably one of the best pvp systems. DDO on the other hand is suffering will all sorts of bad issues. So to save face, Turbine thinks by making it f2p is a better alternative rather than making the gameplay alot better for its players. Typical company who only thinks about squeezing the last dime from its players wish a cash shop rather than giving them a quality game to be proud of.

That is humorous coming from a Guildwars fan.  Sorry to break your bubble but Guildwars is not and never will be a MMO  to most of us.  Since the majority of us here don't pvp much, DDO is a far better game than Guildwars will ever be.  

I am glad you have found a game to enjoy, but demeaning a genre you have a lack of understanding is beneath you.

The funny part is that I actually played and finished GW Trilogy and Hard Mode in about 3 months or so. And it's not a bad game, it's just not up to par with most MMOs in terms of grouping, mail system, auction house (and no jump/falling lol). However, whatever redeeming qualities that game might have combat system sure as heck is NOT one of them. So, yes, bashing DDO (or any other MMO with active combat system) coming from a Guild Wars background is rather unfit.

Peace.

This whole 'f2p' stuff is a whole lot of false advertising.

It is NOT free(You need to purchase the game, set up an account, etc) which, makes it not free. There's nothing about this until you get to the point where u want to play, then u get a whole lot of info about how the game is free - 'click here' - set up account, insert activation key 'here' (clicks) - to get activation key, buy product 'click here' (clicks) back to the first page. Just keeps kicking back to previous pages u have viewed before, no actual way to 'play' unless u bought the game and HAVE played(IE have/had subscription) before.

Kinda sad, cuz even crooked asian mmo's let you actually PLAY the games they state are free, before u realize just how much u need to 'pay' :P

Originally posted by AtmaDarkwolf

This whole 'f2p' stuff is a whole lot of false advertising.

 

It is NOT free(You need to purchase the game, set up an account, etc) which, makes it not free. There's nothing about this until you get to the point where u want to play, then u get a whole lot of info about how the game is free - 'click here' - set up account, insert activation key 'here' (clicks) - to get activation key, buy product 'click here' (clicks) back to the first page. Just keeps kicking back to previous pages u have viewed before, no actual way to 'play' unless u bought the game and HAVE played(IE have/had subscription) before.

 

Kinda sad, cuz even crooked asian mmo's let you actually PLAY the games they state are free, before u realize just how much u need to 'pay' :P

Eh no you dont have to purchase the game, it will be completly free on September 9th and you cant create a Free account untill then. Now its only the headstart for bold players and beta testers.

Originally posted by AtmaDarkwolf

This whole 'f2p' stuff is a whole lot of false advertising.

 

It is NOT free(You need to purchase the game, set up an account, etc) which, makes it not free. There's nothing about this until you get to the point where u want to play, then u get a whole lot of info about how the game is free - 'click here' - set up account, insert activation key 'here' (clicks) - to get activation key, buy product 'click here' (clicks) back to the first page. Just keeps kicking back to previous pages u have viewed before, no actual way to 'play' unless u bought the game and HAVE played(IE have/had subscription) before.

 

Kinda sad, cuz even crooked asian mmo's let you actually PLAY the games they state are free, before u realize just how much u need to 'pay' :P

Dude, you realize that F2P is not open yet, right? September 9th, 2009.

ah my bad, no i did not. Sorry.(must have zzzz'ed over that part of the article.

:P Sorry :D

AWESONE. THIS  DDO Vet is excited.  We need more people to quest with. if this brings them in, bring it on

DDO is one MMO I never got the chance to try.

If its going to be free, I might as well check it out then :)

Originally posted by toord 

snip..............you'll be able to play entirely for free until you hit level 4. At that point you either were fortunate enough to have looted a leveling sigil or buy one at the RMT store in order to advance levels. After that it gets really dicey with respect to free content -- this is a hotly debated subject in their forums. In essence, IMO, it boils down to: at level 4 you'll have to decide whether you like the game and go VIP or be nickel and dimed for content packages and leveling sigils.

Peace.

This sounds like it could be more than a shot in the foot .....more a potential headshot.
 

I just got an invite back to this game after leaving the terrible preorder Beta because it was so bad. This game is even worse than I remember. the Animation is terrible with all the characters lloking like they slide across the ground when they run, the controls are sluggish, the combat is terrible and the new starter quest is extremely lame. I swear this game got even worse than it was when it came out.

I've returned!  Really the only thing that still makes me mad is the turning.  It's hard to control your character when you tap the left arrow and you turn 45 degrees or more :(

Still one of the best mmos imo.  I'll probably play this until GW2 comes out :)

When is this commeing to europe