I suddenly lost all interest in the game when I saw that trailer..

Its EXACTLY like playing FFXI or atleast that is what the video leads me to believe.

Sorry, I spent 300 days of play time on FFXI, I don't want to play that game again... I'd rather play something new instead of something old and rehashed. 

Jumping may not be game breaking for some people but hey every game I've played since Super Mario has let me jump, I've grown accustomed to it and I will not play a game without it.

The Combat looks slow and dull and very similar to FFXI, in all the wrong ways.  You don't even get to see the "Ranger" or the "taru" "black mage" do anything at all.

It seems very disapointing imo.

Originally posted by MustaphaMond

The sticking point in your example is that the "realism" they want ALLOWS them to do something, while the "realism" you are talking about LIMITS what they can do.  Gamers want access to as many features as they can have, the closer to reality and the more abilities it gives them, the better.  Realistic limitations?  Not so much...

It's realism either way. I can get up, go outside and jump up and down. Yes, that's realistic. However, I cannot jump at full height, repeatedly at length, non-stop for very long before I have to stop to get my breath back. It's a realistic action married with a realistic physical limitation. You can't say "I want realism" in favor of jumping, but then say "I don't want realism" in response of being limited by stamina. If so, then you (you in general, not you specifically, Mustapha) don't really want realism.

Again, I have no problem with jumping for a sense of "immersion" or,  moreso, an added gameplay dynamic (ie. jumping is necessary to aspects of the game, exploration, etc). However, when there are people jumping all over the place, non-stop, when there's no reason to, or it's inappropriate under the circumstances, it's very annoying, it's very distracting and yes... it's very unrealistic. 

People in favor of jumping for a sense of realism have a right to their opinion. I believe it would be more realistic for jumping to be limited to some kind of endurance bar or something. That's my opinion.

 

Originally posted by Laughing-man

I suddenly lost all interest in the game when I saw that trailer..

Its EXACTLY like playing FFXI or atleast that is what the video leads me to believe.

Sorry, I spent 300 days of play time on FFXI, I don't want to play that game again... I'd rather play something new instead of something old and rehashed. 

Jumping may not be game breaking for some people but hey every game I've played since Super Mario has let me jump, I've grown accustomed to it and I will not play a game without it.

The Combat looks slow and dull and very similar to FFXI, in all the wrong ways.  You don't even get to see the "Ranger" or the "taru" "black mage" do anything at all.

It seems very disapointing imo.

It's not a trailer... its a video of sh*tty players testing a game that is still in early alpha. 

Does it surprise you that this kind of video maybe isn't the right one to make you feel impressed? 

Aside from graphics I saw nothing that made it seem like FFXI, except the fact that there's a TP bar. 

I don't really get you.

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by MustaphaMond

The sticking point in your example is that the "realism" they want ALLOWS them to do something, while the "realism" you are talking about LIMITS what they can do.  Gamers want access to as many features as they can have, the closer to reality and the more abilities it gives them, the better.  Realistic limitations?  Not so much...

It's realism either way. I can get up, go outside and jump up and down. Yes, that's realistic. However, I cannot jump at full height, repeatedly at length, non-stop for very long before I have to stop to get my breath back. It's a realistic action married with a realistic physical limitation. You can't say "I want realism" in favor of jumping, but then say "I don't want realism" in response of being limited by stamina. If so, then you (you in general, not you specifically, Mustapha) don't really want realism.

Again, I have no problem with jumping for a sense of "immersion" or,  moreso, an added gameplay dynamic (ie. jumping is necessary to aspects of the game, exploration, etc). However, when there are people jumping all over the place, non-stop, when there's no reason to, or it's inappropriate under the circumstances, it's very annoying, it's very distracting and yes... it's very unrealistic. 

People in favor of jumping for a sense of realism have a right to their opinion. I believe it would be more realistic for jumping to be limited to some kind of endurance bar or something. That's my opinion.

 

Yeah, I can accept that and it doesn't really matter to me one way or another.  However, I did want to present the case that jumping is just one of those things some people expect in game.  I find it outrageous how those who want jumping are condescended to in this thread ("DUMB MASSES"), but I know you didn't say that (at least I think so).

I frankly don't care, I would enjoy the game fine both ways (would prefer non-jumping, actually), but I think it's a bit much when some of you who favor non-jumping insult other people and call them dumb just for wanting what is pretty standard in a lot of games.

Okay, maybe that makes them the "dumb masses" because they are basing their preference on their experiences with a broader field of games vs. some of the smugness found in this thread.  People can want something in a game and it doesn't automatically make them dumb, despite how superior and all-knowing some of you believe yourselves to be.

I find the "dumb masses" generalization just... well, dumb.  I'm sorry to WSIMike since you didn't make that comment.  Still, I'm sure there are plenty of people who wouldn't mind seeing some sort of jumping in a FF game, even if they've played the series from its NES origins.  I know FF is not a "jumping" game, but that doesn't mean a player who thinks "why not?" is a freaking moron and its insulting that some of you discredit a person's opinion and right to think because you have it "all figured out."

It does not make a person "dumb" to think, "why not?"  When they overexaggerate and write a thread about a *major* concern like no jumping (which is pretty unimportant in the grand scheme of what can go right/wrong in a game), then that is dumb.  But, if people just say "I would like jumping because a lot of games have jumping" it doesn't automatically make them part of the "dumb masses."  Maybe they are longtime, diehard FF players and have just decided jumping would fit.  How do you know that they are dumb, hyanmen?

Whatever, I'm caring entirely too much about something that I don't even really support.  Still, I can be "against jumping in XIV" and still see the other side's point without calling them dumb or likening them to little more than human cattle/sheep...

I personally think that they're dumb, because they want jumping to a game that doesn't even benefit from it in the first place. 

Maybe they're too simple to understand it though, which makes them just ignorant- then it's understandable.

It's like wanting RTS elements in Halo... and not just wanting it the "yeah that'd be a cool feature"-way but "WITHOUT IT THE GAME FAILS IT'S TEH STANDARD IN TODAY'S GAEMS"-way. Doesn't that sound a bit stupid to you too? Yeah.

Originally posted by Hyanmen

I personally think that they're dumb, because they want jumping to a game that doesn't even benefit from it in the first place. 

Maybe they're too simple to understand it though, which makes them just ignorant- then it's understandable.

It's like wanting RTS elements in Halo... and not just wanting it the "yeah that'd be a cool feature"-way but "WITHOUT IT THE GAME FAILS IT'S TEH STANDARD IN TODAY'S GAEMS"-way. Doesn't that sound a bit stupid to you too? Yeah.

what sounds stupid/dumb to me is a random person on the internet setting the boundaries and parameters for a video game and speaking with a voice of authority that they know, for sure, what benefits a feature can and cannot bring to a game.

Considering many of us play games because we like to see how they push the envelope, change, and evolve... just because YOU have determined that the game doesn't benefit from jumping doesn't mean there's no chance that it MIGHT. Just because YOU can't conceive of any possible benefit that jumping could bring to the gameplay or the experience doesn't mean that it MIGHT actually make the game better (and could take the series, and SE in a new direction of sorts in the same way a lot of the other innovations we've seen in the series throughout the past).

I don't know how you are so certain that jumping brings nothing to the game.  The argument could be "it is the industry standard" but, it's deeper than that.  Considering they are planning something new for the battle system, maybe jumping could have a place in that.  Who knows?

Still, what BENEFITS does non-jumping bring to the game?  I will grant the "no bunnies hopping all around the screen" or exploits by jumping into spots where mobs can't access... but, you talk about jumping bringing no benefits to the gameplay, what benefit does "non-jumping" really bring?
 

Originally posted by MustaphaMond

 what sounds stupid/dumb to me is a random person on the internet setting the boundaries and parameters for a video game and speaking with a voice of authority that they know, for sure, what benefits a feature can and cannot bring to a game.

Considering many of us play games because we like to see how they push the envelope, change, and evolve... just because YOU have determined that the game doesn't benefit from jumping doesn't mean there's no chance that it MIGHT. Just because YOU can't conceive of any possible benefit that jumping could bring to the gameplay or the experience doesn't mean that it MIGHT actually make the game better (and could take the series, and SE in a new direction of sorts in the same way a lot of the other innovations we've seen in the series throughout the past).

I don't know how you are so certain that jumping brings nothing to the game.  The argument could be "it is the industry standard" but, it's deeper than that.  Considering they are planning something new for the battle system, maybe jumping could have a place in that.  Who knows?

Still, what BENEFITS does non-jumping bring to the game?  I will grant the "no bunnies hopping all around the screen" or exploits by jumping into spots where mobs can't access... but, you talk about jumping bringing no benefits to the gameplay, what benefit does "non-jumping" really bring?
 

Even if I don't, the developers sure do. But we can't trust them in this case, nono, we need jumping although SE has already figured out that this game does not need jumping. We know better.

The developers came to a same conclusion as I did... sure, I may not know better than you do, but the developers? I'll make an outrageous claim and say that they might actually know.

You can make Halo a better FPS without implementing RTS features to it- same goes for XIV. They can make the battle system better without having to mix Action elements to it. 

Say, what benefits does no RTS features in Halo bring? The company could actually focus the important features instead of sidetracking to a whole different genre altogether, that's a benefit I guess.

Yes, I know that there are Kingdom Hearts' Oblivions WoW's and whatever Action-RPG's around, but FFXIV is an RPG, not an Action-RPG. RTS to Halo is the same as Jumping to an RPG... cool I guess, but worth the hassle? I doubt it.

Originally posted by Hyanmen

The developers came to a same conclusion as I did... sure, I may not know better than you do, but the developers? I'll make an outrageous claim and say that they might actually know.

Okay...?

Originally posted by Albos

At gamescom the square enix devs noted that they are thinking about adding jumping in the game. Don't think the game is ready yet there is a lot of work still being done I'm sure jumpin will be added.

So, I guess if they add it to the game you will suddenly see the light then, 'cause they know better even if we don't.  My point remains, there are two sides to the coin and just because it hasn't always been in the series and doesn't fit your conception of what the series is doesn't mean that things can't change.

Your Halo analogy is a stretch, because RTS features relative to a game like Halo is a pretty big deviation from what the game is about.  Jumping in an MMO, FF game or not, is a bit more commonplace and might actually be part of the game, not just a side feature or add-on.

Originally posted by MustaphaMond

 

So, I guess if they add it to the game you will suddenly see the light then, 'cause they know better if even if you don't.  My point remains, there are two sides to the coin and just because it hasn't always been in the series and doesn't fit your conception of what the series is doesn't mean that things can't change.

Your Halo analogy is a stretch, because RTS features relative to a game like Halo is a pretty big deviation from what the game is about.  Jumping in an MMO, FF game or not, is a bit more commonplace and might actually be part of the game, not just a side feature or add-on.

SE: "Okay, considering we are making an RPG we need not implement jumping. Let's tell it to the fans."

Fans: "WTF SE NO JUMPING YOU F*CKING SUK STOOPID GAME I WANNA SPAM JUMP"

SE: "Ooookay, we did promise to listen to our intelligent fans... I guess we'll be the new Blizzard and implement Jumping just to please our potential customers, although it gives no real benefit whatsoever..."

Of course SE can start making FF's Action-RPG's, but FFXIV isn't one and implementing jumping won't change anything in that respect. Halo will still be FPS even if there is some fun RTS minigame included.

MMO's are more often Action-RPG's than not, so yes it is a commonplace. That doesn't mean that there can't be any RPG MMO's however, and it also doesn't mean that just because everyone does it the RPG MMO should try to mimic the Action-RPG's and be something it really isn't.

Hey, you are the one who said the devs know best.  Now you want to say if they put jumping in the game, then they did so just to please dumb gamers because their "intelligent gamers" obviously can see no real benefit to jumping so why else would they put it in the game! More power to you.

Still, it's not consistent that when they agree with your viewpoint, they are wise sages.  But, if they just so happen to put jumping into the game, your faith is replaced by cynicism.  Thinking like... Clearly, the only reason they would do such a thing is to cater to gamers other than the "intelligent" gamers.  They couldn't possibly have any other reasons to put jumping into the game.  That's lunacy!

How sad that if they do put jumping into the game, and they do it for a very cool reason (like to use it in some combat situation or whatever), it seems that all a person like you will think is "stupid devs putting stupid features into the game for stupid players."

You set yourself apart from other gamers over and over again, placing yourself in the "intelligent" group while implying that anybody who disagrees with you is obviously in a very different group.  Isn't it POSSIBLE that both groups can have valid points and neither is more or less intelligent for feeling the way they do?  Is that not even remotely achievable in your world?
 

Originally posted by MustaphaMond

Hey, you are the one who said the devs know best.  Now you want to say if they put jumping in the game, then they did so just to please dumb gamers because their "intelligent gamers" obviously can see no real benefit to jumping so why else would they put it in the game! More power to you.

Still, it's not consistent that when they agree with your viewpoint, they are wise sages.  But, if they just so happen to put jumping into the game, your faith is replaced by cynicism.  Clearly, the only reason they would do such a thing is to cater to gamers other than the "intelligent" gamers.  They couldn't possibly have any other reasons to put jumping into the game.  That's lunacy.

How sad that if they do put jumping into the game, and they do it for a very cool reason (like to use it in some combat situation or whatever) and all a person like you thinks is "stupid devs putting stupid features into the game for stupid players."  You set yourself apart from other gamers over and over again, placing yourself in the "intelligent" group while anybody who disagrees with you is obviously in a very different group.  Isn't it POSSIBLE that both groups can have valid points and neither is more or less intelligent for feeling the way they do?  Is that not even remotely achievable in your world?
 

If the devs want to create an Action-RPG, I've nothing against that. But when it's quite apparent that this is not the case and only fan pressure makes SE to implement the said feature, then yes, my faith is replaced by cynicism.

Yeah maybe they're making an RPG and at the last moment think "wow cool let's make this into an Action-RPG instead, yeah awesome!" After the whole game is set up to be a normal RPG... That's how you make games!

Of course if they can pull it off and becomes actually meaningful feature, then that's good. But making a nigh-useless feature just because players demand it? Yes, that's stupid.

It is very easy to make me change my views. You just have to win me in an argument. Don't worry, I will accept loss if it comes down to it- being right isn't important, knowing the truth is. But evidence is needed... simply saying "u wrong", "both group haev valid points but I don't have any examples to show you" just isn't quite enough.

This thread proves that people will complain about everything and anything, just so  they can complain.

You cant jump in diablo but everyone seems to love that game. All old school rpg have no press spacebar to jump action.

Originally posted by MustaphaMond

Originally posted by WSIMike

 

Yeah, I can accept that and it doesn't really matter to me one way or another.  However, I did want to present the case that jumping is just one of those things some people expect in game.  I find it outrageous how those who want jumping are condescended to in this thread ("DUMB MASSES"), but I know you didn't say that (at least I think so).

I frankly don't care, I would enjoy the game fine both ways (would prefer non-jumping, actually), but I think it's a bit much when some of you who favor non-jumping insult other people and call them dumb just for wanting what is pretty standard in a lot of games.

Okay, maybe that makes them the "dumb masses" because they are basing their preference on their experiences with a broader field of games vs. some of the smugness found in this thread.  People can want something in a game and it doesn't automatically make them dumb, despite how superior and all-knowing some of you believe yourselves to be.

I find the "dumb masses" generalization just... well, dumb.  I'm sorry to WSIMike since you didn't make that comment.  Still, I'm sure there are plenty of people who wouldn't mind seeing some sort of jumping in a FF game, even if they've played the series from its NES origins.  I know FF is not a "jumping" game, but that doesn't mean a player who thinks "why not?" is a freaking moron and its insulting that some of you discredit a person's opinion and right to think because you have it "all figured out."

It does not make a person "dumb" to think, "why not?"  When they overexaggerate and write a thread about a *major* concern like no jumping (which is pretty unimportant in the grand scheme of what can go right/wrong in a game), then that is dumb.  But, if people just say "I would like jumping because a lot of games have jumping" it doesn't automatically make them part of the "dumb masses."  Maybe they are longtime, diehard FF players and have just decided jumping would fit.  How do you know that they are dumb, hyanmen?

Whatever, I'm caring entirely too much about something that I don't even really support.  Still, I can be "against jumping in XIV" and still see the other side's point without calling them dumb or likening them to little more than human cattle/sheep...

I don't condescend to refer to those who want jumping as the "dumb masses".

Now... some of the people who would have such a feature at their restless finger-tips? Hmmm... Well... Let's just say that I place those who can't seem to keep their fingers off the jump button for more than 2 seconds in a game in the same category as the type who won't shut up during a movie in a theater, or the kid who keeps kicking the back of your seat on an airplane. It's an annoyance and a distraction to me and I can do quite well without it.

However... I recognize that jumping can be a valuable, even useful feature in a game... but that it's not necessarily "mandatory" in order for the game to be fun. I've played several, FFXI among them, that didn't have jumping and were none the worse off for it.

So... if there's going to be jumping, I would like it to be implemented in some fashion, such as an endurance bar, where I'm not having to deal with people jumping up and down non-stop. Seems like a fair compromise to me. They get their jumping, I don't have to see everyone jumping around non-stop.

Originally posted by MustaphaMond

Still, what BENEFITS does non-jumping bring to the game?  I will grant the "no bunnies hopping all around the screen" or exploits by jumping into spots where mobs can't access... but, you talk about jumping bringing no benefits to the gameplay, what benefit does "non-jumping" really bring?
 

You just answered your own question.

It's like saying "What's wrong with giving my loaded handgun to my 2 year old?  Okay, I will grant the 'He might blow his brains out' but besides that what is the problem?"

Jumping in Final Fantasy is BIG NO-NO!

Originally posted by KupoKupopo

Originally posted by MustaphaMond

Still, what BENEFITS does non-jumping bring to the game?  I will grant the "no bunnies hopping all around the screen" or exploits by jumping into spots where mobs can't access... but, you talk about jumping bringing no benefits to the gameplay, what benefit does "non-jumping" really bring?
 

 

You just answered your own question.

It's like saying "What's wrong with giving my loaded handgun to my 2 year old?  Okay, I will grant the 'He might blow his brains out' but besides that what is the problem?"

LOL! Kind of a morbid example...

... but very well put lol.

We need new FF14 info, we're beginning to canibalize each other.  hehe Its FF14 survivor.

How long before there is only one true FF fan? :P 

Will it be WSIMIke? Maybe Bellarion, or maybe some newcomer who knows better then to favour jumping in FF14. Say tuned! Same bat time! Same Bat Channel!

You guys keep saying how the FF playerbase is so mature but yet you think that if there is jumping it will be abused.  Sounds like what you really think is that FF playerbase is just as immature as wow's.

Originally posted by Bellarion

We need new FF14 info, we're beginning to canibalize each other.  hehe Its FF14 survivor.

How long before there is only one true FF fan? :P 

Will it be WSIMIke? Maybe Bellarion, or maybe some newcomer who knows better then to favour jumping in FF14. Say tuned! Same bat time! Same Bat Channel!

 

 

Pfft... nah... I enjoy a good debate. When things get 'annoying' to me, I just take a break for a couple days and then I'm back at it :-p

Originally posted by svann

You guys keep saying how the FF playerbase is so mature but yet you think that if there is jumping it will be abused.  Sounds like what you really think is that FF playerbase is just as immature as wow's.

Actually, its things like "no jumping" that keeps the FF playerbase mature.  Because it will eliminate people who will choose not to play solely because you can't jump (i.e. immature people).

Lol, there is a 15 page thread debating this same issue on FFXIVCore.com as well.  Apparently everyone has an opinion on the matter lol.

I didn't feel strongly about it either way until Tanaka said "We are about 40-50% done with the game" and "We currently do not plan to have jumping in the game".  That's when I started arguing against having it in.

If the devs have designed a good portion of the game world without players having the ability to jump in mind, it would be a complete waste of resources for them to go back and revise the work they've done to make sure players can't access areas they weren't supposed to.  I'd much rather they spend that time finishing up and getting the game to beta that much sooner.  It ultimately comes down to a cosmetic feature, which is in no way important enough to delay all the content in the game.

If they choose to add it down the road for some reason, I don't think they'd add an AoC-style stamina bar, so I'd like to see it be more Zelda-style where it happens automatically in certain areas.  Either that or just a longer animation that makes your character slow down, gather strength in his legs, leap in a direction (not 5 feet in the air or able to change direction in mid-air), then take a moment to absorb the impact , like a realistic jump.

Originally posted by KupoKupopo

Originally posted by svann

You guys keep saying how the FF playerbase is so mature but yet you think that if there is jumping it will be abused.  Sounds like what you really think is that FF playerbase is just as immature as wow's.

 

Actually, its things like "no jumping" that keeps the FF playerbase mature.  Because it will eliminate people who will choose not to play solely because you can't jump (i.e. immature people).

I was kind of thinking the same thing... with the amount of new players to the series XIV may bring in that didn't play XI, it might weed out people that only care about those meaningless things. example. "grafix r not guud so this game sux" kind of attitude.

There is more to a game than jumping, the same concept can be applied to other forms of art and entertainment as well.

Having said that, I wouldn't care if they added it or not, its FF and I am going to give it a chance either way since I am usually not disappointed by an FF/Square game.

^ I agree...

In most games it's pointless to be able to jump. Sure it's easier to get around but that's because the areas are designed with jumping in mind. If you can't jump, the game is designed with that in mind.. so it'll still be easy to get around. Really it doesn't matter one way or another.

Originally posted by KupoKupopo

Originally posted by svann

You guys keep saying how the FF playerbase is so mature but yet you think that if there is jumping it will be abused.  Sounds like what you really think is that FF playerbase is just as immature as wow's.

 

Actually, its things like "no jumping" that keeps the FF playerbase mature.  Because it will eliminate people who will choose not to play solely because you can't jump (i.e. immature people).

Yeah... I'd have to agree with that. I mean, it rings a *bit* of generalization... but it has a lot of truth to it, as well. The reason you don't see a lot of the more "immature" type in FFXI is because FFXI doesn't cater to those types very well... the slower pace, the lack of jumping, the lack of open world PvP... and so forth.  Just so happens that those people not being in the game tends to have resulted in a more mature community overall (albeit with its share of idiots in other respects).

Does that say anything necessarily about those who like jumping, faster leveling and less grouping? No. But, that just happens to be how it's worked out in FFXI, so one could come to that conclusion.

It's kinda like the whole "forced grouping" thing. People complain about it in FFXI. Yet, "forced grouping" is widely recognized to be a major contributor to the sense of community FFXI has developed... that reliance on other players, where every player isn't an island unto themself, except for raid encounters or difficult quests.

If groups were fleeting or unnecessary as they are in other MMOs, players wouldn't be "forced" to group together, they wouldn't communicate as much, they wouldn't become friends and you wouldn't see the kind of community and long-term friendships develop that you do. I can say this from hands-on experience in myriad other MMOs where grouping was played down... the community was nothing even close to that of FFXI's.

And seriously... I will say this... Jumping is neat, yes. And it's nice to have that "freedom", yes. But for those who say that it's so important that they won't play a game without it... I mean... seriously? If it's a great game, has tons to do, great environments... awesome storyline... great character development, etc. etc.... but doesn't require nor have jumping... They won't play it? I dunno.. that just seems to be a bit melodramatic to me.