Warhammer piqued my interest for a few months, until I found out that the devs were intentionally overpowering two of my LEAST favorite classes just to get people to play them.  Thus,  they made everyone else miserable at our expense.  When I play a game, i expect balance and fairness all across the board.   I got in on Aion beta, and got to say, I love it.  It is balanced, fun, and has a decent enough selection of classes to make it variable.  

The end game of warhammer got  very dull quickly too with all pvp only and many day long lockouts of the instances, all three of them.  So we were stuck playing alts or just pvp grinding all day long.  I like the idea of Aion which adds PVPVE.  When you are pvping,  you get attacked by monsters and sometimes forces are temporarily joined to thwart their onslaught.  It's fun.  Not to mention beautiful and very fluid. 

Originally posted by alderdale

Originally posted by MrPhire

Originally posted by Soto

Looking over the description of the game and watching some videos nothing looked inspiring. Even Aions classes are the same ones in most fantasy MMOPRGs. Are people intereseted in this mainly because it is new and you can fly????  Aions character models look like Linage II and what is with those OVERSIZED WEAPONS!  Why, would anyone pick this game over Warhammer online?

 

thx

 

OMG SO MANY QUESTION MARKS!!!!!!!!!!! AWWW RUN AWAY!!!!

 

No in all seriousness. Warhammer Online has very little to no end-game and the pvp is mainly instance, because people are too lazy or just don't want to do Open PvP. Warhammer Online has already been thrown in the can by the majority. Aion is the next PvP heavy MMO releasing. Suppose to make what warhammer failed at better. Without instanced PvP. So pretty much thats what the majority say. My opinion, Warhammer Online had a really cool PQ system, but they kept patching and then started planning for more pvp content and they didn't improve any other thing. Its like this. They bought one house, Then planned on buying another house before completely moving in. Then they didn't sell the other house. So it had no end. Thats my opinion.

 

So Many Exclamation points, run even further...........

 

So Many Full Stops, run as far as you can

Originally posted by Fkinglinux

beautiful article here that basically sums it all up for you

 

http://aionicthoughts.wordpress.com/2009/07/09/why-aion-will-work-while-war-did-not/

Linked fixed. 

aionicthoughts.wordpress.com/2009/07/09/why-aion-will-work-while-war-did-not/

 There are many reasons, but I have 1 that is big enough it doesnt need the rest.

Every skill in the game hits when its supposed to. Unlike Warhammers long ass delay because of the bad coding.

That's good enough for me.

I'll take just one small aspect of Aion to counter OP.

POLISH.  Just that alone is enough if it is about Warhammr.

Below are what happened the other day while browsing forum with my sister.

"they are just using the same class", "been there done that", "there is nothing new", etc. 

My 5 year old sister saw the above types of comment the other day on a forum, and she asked me "This person want to play a game or just want something new?"

I don't know if she is a smart for her age, but if even a 5 year old know to ask this question....

Before the open-beta events started half of my guild declared they will play Aion. Now only 3 ppl out of 30 want to continue. This game is same shit as any other fantasy-based  WoW clone on the market. Well, you have wings, that is it.

I don't know :p

WAR could be a pretty good game if they made a few tweaks to RvR.

Well, I don't know what the Aion developers are considering a success for their own game. They claimed the 2nd place in western MMOs, that would put them in the 300-500k region as far as expectations go. From a gamers perspective, 100-150k is also awesome, just not hype material as far as e-peen is concerned. I'd say Aion should be happy if they manage to retain what DAoC had at its best.

LOTRO is also doing great, Turbine has been pumping updates constantly. Polish and frequent updates is what keeps both LOTRO and EVE subscriptions on a steady/increasing path. Hopefully, Aion will receive an equal number of frequent updates.

Time will tell.

[Btw, both WAR and Aion are supposed to offer something that WoW doesn't, open war PvP. WAR implementation was not very successful, ranging from the game engine to the general design philosophy. Aion's implementation seem more on the spot as far as design philosophy is concerned, remains to be seen in action in the western hemisphere.

I doubt Aion will attract anything near WoW's number, WoW is covering almost all the bases except for world PvP. And I think that the people interested in world PvP are just a small fraction of WoW's playerbase.]

Originally posted by Zorndorf

I wonder what excuse the MMORPG hoppers will have in 6 months time when Aion will be at around 100 - 150 K subs, just like War is now....

-----

For those searching for some lame excuses ----> scroll back in these forums to around 2005/2007 (Lotro is a good excuse for those talking about "polish", Lineage 2 too is also an excellent source and a lot of other elements can be found in open world pvp in dozens of other mmo's).

Just to give some ideas if you'd need justifications.

 

I'll just see you eat your words in 6 months.  You know the figure of 100-150k after 6 months is rather easy to beat for a game like Aion, I'll take that bet.

Unlike you, I can't predict the future.  If you want to call it educated guess, then ROFL.

Edit:  Saw your edit and I would like to respond, did you ever even play any mmo before WoW?  People that actually look outside of their window in their gaming life knows WoW was a copy of other mmo that came before it.  Using WoW copy/clone itself is the same lame excuse you accuse of others having.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by linren

Originally posted by Zorndorf

I wonder what excuse the MMORPG hoppers will have in 6 months time when Aion will be at around 100 - 150 K subs, just like War is now....

-----

For those searching for some lame excuses ----> scroll back in these forums to around 2005/2007 (Lotro is a good excuse for those talking about "polish", Lineage 2 too is also an excellent source and a lot of other elements can be found in open world pvp in dozens of other mmo's).

Just to give some ideas if you'd need justifications.

 

 

I'll just see you eat your words in 6 months.  You know the figure of 100-150k after 6 months is rather easy to beat for a game like Aion, I'll take that bet.

Unlike you, I can't predict the future.  If you want to call it educated guess, then ROFL.

 

Bet taken. the problem for Aion is that it will not even have the same 800 K initial sales of AOC and WAR had in their first 3 weeks.

So it will be quite an uphill battle.

This is not free internet China country remember. This is the hard 180 dollar yearly subs contest.

Just so we are clear, we are just talking about western market right?  You are not going to tell me Europe or Oceanic don't count 6 months later are you? I mean cuz if just count Eastern sales I would have won the bet a few times over already, but of course we are talking about western release which is US + EU + Oceanics that play on US server.  Condition is 100-150k sub after 6 months, and based on that only right?  I did NOT bet about the 800k in 3weeks since it is something you added later.

Anyways, only time will tell.

Originally posted by RamzaBehoulv

Aion is a finished, polished, perfectly working game and astounding 3D engine.

Basically everything Warhammer is not. And that's coming from someone with 2 max lvl characters in WAR.

I think a lot of hardcore forum posters overlook this - we get so used to half finished broken games, we gloss over it and go on and on about nuances of gameplay that many players hardly notice. WAR was an unpolished unfinished mismanaged mess, and that probably cost it more players than anything that was wrong with the gameplay dynamics.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by linren

Originally posted by Zorndorf

I wonder what excuse the MMORPG hoppers will have in 6 months time when Aion will be at around 100 - 150 K subs, just like War is now....

-----

For those searching for some lame excuses ----> scroll back in these forums to around 2005/2007 (Lotro is a good excuse for those talking about "polish", Lineage 2 too is also an excellent source and a lot of other elements can be found in open world pvp in dozens of other mmo's).

Just to give some ideas if you'd need justifications.

 

 

I'll just see you eat your words in 6 months.  You know the figure of 100-150k after 6 months is rather easy to beat for a game like Aion, I'll take that bet.

Unlike you, I can't predict the future.  If you want to call it educated guess, then ROFL.

 

Bet taken. the problem for Aion is that it will not even have the same 800 K initial sales of AOC and WAR had in their first 3 weeks.

So it will be quite an uphill battle.

This is not free internet China country remember. This is the hard 180 dollar yearly subs contest or as I would say ... the post 3 months launch syndrome.

Edit: in MMO land you can pretty much predict the future by looking at the past years. And of course some sampled data help too.

Zorn you are forgetting that Aion is, and im using another poster's term here, a polished, finished, and working game.  The game is a big success in Asia.  I have played the game and it is fun and compelling.  I do not wish to throw insults out, but the biggest problem this game is facing is overcoming the asian-mmo prejudice that so many Western players have.

Originally posted by Vhaln

Originally posted by RamzaBehoulv

Aion is a finished, polished, perfectly working game and astounding 3D engine.

Basically everything Warhammer is not. And that's coming from someone with 2 max lvl characters in WAR.

 

I think a lot of hardcore forum posters overlook this - we get so used to half finished broken games, we gloss over it and go on and on about nuances of gameplay that many players hardly notice. WAR was an unpolished unfinished mismanaged mess, and that probably cost it more players than anything that was wrong with the gameplay dynamics.

Very true, the first thing players look for when they enter a game is whether it is working properly or not.  Which polish becomes the first thing people see.  Some players won't go into gameplay if the polish is not enough or not there at all, which really does cost game companies a large number of players.  Many games would have been able to keep a bit more players if the launch actually have a game that feels polished enough to get into game play.

Basically polish is meant to be ignored eventually, since polish is just there to greet the players, then be forgotten.

180€ / [365(days per year) x 1(hr per day)] = 0.5€ per day

180€ / [365(days per year) x 2(hr per day)] = 0.25€ per day

180€ / [365(days per year) x 4(hr per day)] = 0.12€ per day

Is it just me or the 180€ per year is a laughable amount of money compared to the hours of entertainment offered?

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by linren

Originally posted by Zorndorf

 

Bet taken. the problem for Aion is that it will not even have the same 800 K initial sales of AOC and WAR had in their first 3 weeks.

So it will be quite an uphill battle.

This is not free internet China country remember. This is the hard 180 dollar yearly subs contest.

 

Just so we are clear, we are just talking about western market right?  You are not going to tell me Europe or Oceanic don't count 6 months later are you? I mean cuz if just count Eastern sales I would have won the bet a few times over already, but of course we are talking about western release which is US + EU + Oceanics that play on US server.  Condition is 100-150k sub after 6 months, and based on that only right?  I did NOT bet about the 800k in 3weeks since it is something you added later.

Anyways, only time will tell.

 

You don't have to wait.

Here let me help you: http://www.amazon.com/s/qid=1252053542/ref=sr_pg_1?ie=UTF8&rs=229575&bbn=229575&rh=n%3A468642%2Cn%3A%2111846801%2Cn%3A229575&page=1

See the charts? Now take CO: third place.

I guess Aion could outperform CO with a factor of 3 to 1 (in EU (mainly to Germany but they always react first and cool down first) but certainly not in the US).

CO is being played at launch by about the same amount as current War players (not time played that doesn't count). So that means CO is targeted for an audiance of around 150 K western subs at launch.

With these figures (and the former known Beta weekends of Aion)...  you come close to 400K/450K/ Aion players at launch, perhaps even less.

ALL past MMO's launched after WOW had a retention rate in traceable players of 20 to 30% after the 3 months launch period.

What's 30% (best possible) of 400K + ?

It's all there on the web ...

Why do you think financial analysts predicted War would have around 250K/300K  subs 3 months after launch? It was even here  posted as a reference.

Like I said: bet taken.

Right, but War and AoC, and from what a lot of people are saying, CO are not that great of games.  Aion is.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by linren

Originally posted by Zorndorf

 

Bet taken. the problem for Aion is that it will not even have the same 800 K initial sales of AOC and WAR had in their first 3 weeks.

So it will be quite an uphill battle.

This is not free internet China country remember. This is the hard 180 dollar yearly subs contest.

 

Just so we are clear, we are just talking about western market right?  You are not going to tell me Europe or Oceanic don't count 6 months later are you? I mean cuz if just count Eastern sales I would have won the bet a few times over already, but of course we are talking about western release which is US + EU + Oceanics that play on US server.  Condition is 100-150k sub after 6 months, and based on that only right?  I did NOT bet about the 800k in 3weeks since it is something you added later.

Anyways, only time will tell.

 

You don't have to wait.

Here let me help you: http://www.amazon.com/s/qid=1252053542/ref=sr_pg_1?ie=UTF8&rs=229575&bbn=229575&rh=n%3A468642%2Cn%3A%2111846801%2Cn%3A229575&page=1

See the charts? Now take CO: third place.

I guess Aion could outperform CO with a factor of 3 to 1 (in EU (mainly to Germany but they always react first and cool down first) but certainly not in the US).

CO is being played at launch by about the same amount as current War players (not time played that doesn't count). So that means CO is targeted for an audiance of around 150 K western subs at launch.

With these figures (and the former known Beta weekends of Aion)...  you come close to 400K/450K/ Aion players at launch, perhaps even less.

ALL past MMO's launched after WOW had a retention rate in traceable players of 20 to 30% after the 3 months launch period.

What's 30% (best possible) of 400K + ?

It's all there on the web ...

Why do you think financial analysts predicted War would have around 250K/300K  subs 3 months after launch? It was even here  posted as a reference.

Like I said: bet taken.

Bet was 100-150k players after 6 months, but since most reports are based on progression of Five, it would have to say 200k+ sub after 6 months for me to win it.  I already gave you a 50k sub margin unless we want to base it on a more accurate sub count which I would have more advantage, but I don't care.

Yes we do have to wait 6 months you psycho.  Bets are based on what happens in reality and not prediction.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

I wonder what excuse the MMORPG hoppers will have in 6 months time when Aion will be at around 100 - 150 K subs, just like War is now....

-----

For those searching for some lame excuses ----> scroll back in these forums to around 2005/2007 (Lotro is a good excuse for those talking about "polish", Lineage 2 too is also an excellent source and a lot of other elements can be found in open world pvp in dozens of other mmo's).

Just to give some ideas if you'd need justifications why the world will be empty.

 I see people here who spit on WOW (while they didn't even play it for years) and are making themselves wet to play a featureless WOW copy.

How long does that last you think .... playing a copy to forget a game.

I guess one free month and to some the added subscription card.

End of story.

Wow has it's hooks into you is all I know.  You like wow and that is fine by me, it's a good game for an old product.  But  we / I really don't give a dam about projected sub numbers.

Warhammer is a PVP game , Aion is PVE  and PVP .

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by Xasapis

180€ / [365(days per year) x 1(hr per day)] = 0.5€ per day

180€ / [365(days per year) x 2(hr per day)] = 0.25€ per day

180€ / [365(days per year) x 4(hr per day)] = 0.12€ per day

Is it just me or the 180€ per year is a laughable amount of money compared to the hours of entertainment offered?

 

It is the deciding factor why Guild Wars is the second played MMO on Xfire.

And the reason of the post 3 months launch depression. (free month + sub card).

This has been confirmed over and over and over again in these past 4 years.

Could this mechanic never be breached ? Of course some day it can - like Blizzard did it - , but you'll need a complete other product than "the usual one".

That's why I used the present WAR subs. That game just followed the same logic like all others.

The difference is between the 15 or 30% retention rate of the launch period. That's all.

The rest is an excuse to hop from game to game. Excuses enough on these forums: just scroll 3 years back.

Guild wars is not an MMO even by their own developers admission.

Besides, I think you're trying to make a point but your arguments don't validate it. Are you seriously arguing that people leave AoC and WAR because the cumulative expenses over a period of months are too big? Because seriously, any P2P MMO you pick has pretty much the same cost per month. The difference is in the game itself. Are you arguing that a player may stay in a game he doesn't really like for 15€ per month, but when the amount becomes bigger than XX€ he leaves? That doesn't seem to be the truth either.

WoW (or any other MMO) retention rate has nothing to do with the 15€ per month. I'd like to think that people who play P2P games, are interested in the quality of the gameplay offered, since the monthly fee is a flat rate anyway. And even if it wasn't so, a superior game could ask for a bigger subscription and I wouldn't mind it.

What is the point you're trying to make when you mention the yearly cost of MMOs? Because as far as entertainment cost, it's among the cheapest you can find.

Originally posted by Ztekan

Warhammer is a PVP game , Aion is PVE  and PVP .

 

 

The PVPVE is one of the big things that Aion has going for it for me, I've seen PVP and PVE before but putting the two together with that NPC faction is good stuff.

---- to the OP

Aion has a few things over WAR, as much as I love the Warhammer Universe, I've been immersed in the lore of Warhammer for a long time. The Blood God, the Orcs, the Chaos races and even old old Warhammer legends like Kaleb Daark, it's time for something a little different than Elves, Orcs, Chaos and so forth.

Warhammer is cool, don't get me wrong but there isn't a real comparison to AIon, apart from the fact they're both MMOs.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

I wonder what excuse the MMORPG hoppers will have in 6 months time when Aion will be at around 100 - 150 K subs, just like War is now....

-----

For those searching for some lame excuses ----> scroll back in these forums to around 2005/2007 (Lotro is a good excuse for those talking about "polish", Lineage 2 too is also an excellent source and a lot of other elements can be found in open world pvp in dozens of other mmo's).

Just to give some ideas if you'd need justifications why the world will be empty.

 I see people here who spit on WOW (while they didn't even play it for years) and are making themselves wet to play a featureless WOW copy.

How long does that last you think .... playing a copy to forget a game.

I guess one free month and to some the added subscription card.

End of story.

If AION fails , like WAR or AoC It wont be because of WoW. It will be because of itself. If the game is bad it fails. Stop living in your WoW-centric world.

The fact that a huge portion of WoWs player base leaves when a new MMO gets released and after it fails they get back means something.

It means that people are actually bored / tired of WoW and they are looking for something else, something new. If the new thing is Bad they get back to WoW simply because they are "addicted" to MMOs and WoW is a decent MMO with lots of content and their friends and high lvl chars are there too. But when then next big MMO gets out and they leave woW again for it.

There wont be a MMO to kill wow, mainly because people are cautious after the failures of recent MMOs. But when a good MMO gets released (maybe its Aion, maybe not) WoWs playerbase will get significantly reduced over time.

As for the wow copy comment:

1) WoW is a copy itself, but that doesnt make you not enjoy it right?

2) Aion is PvP centric with outdoor PvP, something that WoW doesnt offer.

Games fail because THEY are bad, not because WoW is good!!

ps. Lotro and Lineage. Both have a decent playerbase. But if they are not scoring huge numbers its cause of their faults.

Lotros animations, in my oponion, sucks and there was a few things to do at the end-game.

Lineage 2 PvP was fun, but it was a huge grinder. Im sure you are about to say "but AION is  grinder too" ,well if Aion is a grinder L2 was a hundred times more. 

Originally posted by Zorndorf

At X,

Why do you think that the only sub based game in that overall top 10 on Xfire (and even if you would question it ... it shows what Xfire players play) is just ONE game. The most popular MMO's on that list are ... freebies.

Often terrible free MMO games, but simply played more because they have NO subs.

BTW the problem is NOT the 180 dollars yearly subs alone. It is an added element to a more complex combined cost structure - both in time investment and money - mostly involving the MMO "hoppers", who just jump from game to game and ... leave after 2 months to put the names in their signatures on forums.

EVE is complementary to a fantasy game. That's why it is out there.

The rest is VERY under 250K after 6 months launch, because people simply don't pay, unless it is original.

And we both know what we mean about "original". WOW for 95% of ALL present MMO players is original, simply by the fact the first generation had hardly 3% of WOW's market in players.

So yes, those sub cards are a very hard fact .... just to play one game.

 It is the constant factor of the past 5 years of MMO launches.

So what you are saying is, over 90% mmo population never played another mmo before so they found WoW original?  This is pure gold, I wish I can post this on WoW forum, but I hate flames so I'll suppress my urges.  I mean, if you did not mean it that way I apologize, but it is hard to interpret it any other way.

Your analysis is based on so much assumptions i don't even know where to begin.  I also thought someone got flamed a while back for saying the exact same thing in a WoW forum, I'll try to see if I can find it.

Well, the question of this thread was whether Aion will fare better than Warhammer. There are two ways you can look at it, one is the financial aspect, the other is the gameplay aspect. From a financial standpoint, the game quality is higher than Warhammer, so I suppose it's natural that it is expected to have more subscriptions. From the gameplay standpoint, the design seems more solid, but it will take some maturity time in order to give a definite answer.

Overall, I'd say that regardless of the initial sales, the retention rate will probably be bigger than Warhammer. It's just a feeling, I have no hard data to back this feeling. Now, the real trick is after the box month is over and the dust settles down, for the game to have a steady/increasing subscription rate. The hight of it doesn't really matter.

The mention of WoW in this particular thread is somewhat irrelevant. Only some deluded fans think that Aion can compete with WoW. The developers are standing firmly on the earth and their optimistic prediction was a 2nd place in the western market.

The mention of F2P MMOs is even more irrelevant. Even if F2P games have more subsciption than WoW or other MMOs, the financial aspect is different. If I remember correctly, the Mapple story developer mentioned that the financial gain of 6M F2P accounts was the equivalent of 250k P2P accounts. That basically means that 1 subscriber in a P2P game is roughly equal with 24 subscribers of a F2P game. Or if WoW was a F2P game, it will have 264M subscribers.

 if you find why aaion is better the war or aoc tell us i shure liked more war then aion or aoc

Originally posted by linren

Originally posted by Zorndorf

At X,

Why do you think that the only sub based game in that overall top 10 on Xfire (and even if you would question it ... it shows what Xfire players play) is just ONE game. The most popular MMO's on that list are ... freebies.

Often terrible free MMO games, but simply played more because they have NO subs.

BTW the problem is NOT the 180 dollars yearly subs alone. It is an added element to a more complex combined cost structure - both in time investment and money - mostly involving the MMO "hoppers", who just jump from game to game and ... leave after 2 months to put the names in their signatures on forums.

EVE is complementary to a fantasy game. That's why it is out there.

The rest is VERY under 250K after 6 months launch, because people simply don't pay, unless it is original.

And we both know what we mean about "original". WOW for 95% of ALL present MMO players is original, simply by the fact the first generation had hardly 3% of WOW's market in players.

So yes, those sub cards are a very hard fact .... just to play one game.

 It is the constant factor of the past 5 years of MMO launches.

 

So what you are saying is, over 90% mmo population never played another mmo before so they found WoW original?  This is pure gold, I wish I can post this on WoW forum, but I hate flames so I'll suppress my urges.  I mean, if you did not mean it that way I apologize, but it is hard to interpret it any other way.

Your analysis is based on so much assumptions i don't even know where to begin.  I also thought someone got flamed a while back for saying the exact same thing in a WoW forum, I'll try to see if I can find it.

 

But that is actually true :p

We can argue about the percentage of new players WoW introduced, but it was certainly alot. There are still truckloads of WoW players that never tried any other mmorpg.

That is the sole reason why we use the term "WoW n00b" ;)