wow good graphics?

I rofled off my chair on to the actual floor and was unable to continue reading the rest of the rant.

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by templarga

Originally posted by Goatgod76

IMO...you know why MMO's lately lack anything exciting? It's BECAUSE of WoW.

Do you honestly believe that? So you blame Blizzard because other dev companies are too blind, lazy and too busy trying to copy WOW that they release horrible new games? Oh yes, of course it is Blizzard's fault. I guess Blizzard sent them an order saying "You must try and copy us so you will fail and we will do better!". That sound about right?

It is not Bl;izzard's fault that other gaming companies want to copy WOW and then wind up failing miserably at it. Maybe, just maybe if those companies and those developers and those investors would show a little innovation and create something unique then it might succeed.

 

Yes, I do. Sure, it is those companies fault for trying to copy it and failing...BUT, they wouldn't be making copies of that game if it hadn't been for Blizzard bringing such idiotically easy stuff to the table on the first place and altering the MMO world away from it''s roots and closer to console gaming.

 

Did you read my original post or just that line? Blizzard made it more like an FPS with BG's and stats. Sure, it did really well because it brought in FPS console kiddies in droves due to it's console like content and mass advertisement. And it's great they made a game technologically impaired parents could easily understand to play along with their kids. But that is NOT what MMO's started out as. I'm saying MMO's need to bring itself full circle to it's roots. That is being based on board games and fantasy books. An escape. NOT based more on console games with linear game play, easy gear acquisition, and PvP to draw in every e-peen stroking player from the console world to ruin everyone elses fun. THAT is what console games are for, leave it there. 

I'm not meaning this in a smartass sense in any way when I ask, but I want to ask...Have you played MMO's BEFORE WoW? Mainly, EQ1 or UO? If you did then you should know what I am trying to get at. You'd also see, or understand that since WoW released, the market has changed drastically for the worse. Straying away from fantasy fun with a great community, to a cess pool of immature players that want everything handed to them and everything to be set up so they can be instantly 1337 (Like a console game) with little to no consequences. And, companies hell bent on strictly money instead of an equal stake in worthy content with meaning. Hence, the stale MMO selection available today...sadly.

 

So yes, it's companies faults for trying to copy it, but it's WoW that caused it in the first place.

Wow, great post dude. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Originally posted by Horusra

You will never see another EQ1 or UO because they failed in a business sense.  They have a craptastic design that a majority of the public rejected.  There were not enough basement living jobless people living with their parents to make the games as profitable as WoW.  That age of "Real MMO's" is dead basically because they were not the real MMO's.  I think Massive has a new term....million...not thousands.  The WoW model of casual MMO's is the future.  Stop talking like my grandparents about walking to school in snow....we have cars now and we do not have 2 hours a day to waste walking to school one way.  The age of the grind-fest that people seem to call "hardcore" is done.

Yes maxing out a character in UO did take a long time, so long it took less time then in WoW. Man I hated that UO grind........

As to ripping off...Warhammer in all its forms ripped off GURPS which ripped off DDO which ripped off Cavaliers and Roundheads...and on and on.

Warhammer is just one in a long line that stole stuff....Hell Warhammer 40,000 is based on races in GURPs Star Fontiers and Gamma World combined together.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by templarga

Originally posted by Eben

Originally posted by templarga

 Maybe, just maybe if those companies and those developers and those investors would show a little innovation and create something unique then it might succeed.

 

Funny, Blizzard did neither, and they seem to be succeeding rather well.  What gives?

The issue is that, when WOW came along, the MMO market wasn't in need of major innovation or reform. The market was still growing and its life cycle was climbing through the early adopter/early majority stage. Now, thanks to WOW and other major MMOs, the market is through the Early Majority and into the late majority stage or possibly laggard stage (I am applying Rogers Innovation-Adoption curve to the market and not just a single product).

The point is now innovation is needed. 5 years is a long time (since WOW launched) and the market has stagnated. That is why every MMO is the same now or gives you that same feeling - the same game play, the same type of advancement. etc.... We have all seen it and done it before. 5 years ago, with WOW, it was okay because they took what was offered and made it better (in my opinion). Now that same mantra (copy something and make it better) won't work for a full game. Sure, it works for a system here or a system there (like guild advancement) but not for an entire game.

 

Remember, in mmo development "years"' 5 years isn't a long time. If you were to map out all the games that came out since UO and not take into account the time for development you would steadily see bits of innovation and changes here and there.

It only seems glacial to players because 5 years in a person's life can be huge.

It's sort of like studying the geological aspects of an area. You can have a person live in an area all their lives and they might note changes here and there but the reality is that the area itself has changed drastically over quite a long time.

you are going to get that innovation but it will happen in chunks. over time.

Right, and I think its time for a new chunk to happen. Innovation can be a good thing or a bad thing too. My argument is that, for now, MMO development is stuck in a rut. It is the same rut since the UO or EQ days, we have just found better ways to get through the rut.

It is time for something new. However, unlike many, I will not blame that on Blizzard. I will blame it on investors who are so blinded by the dollar signs that all they want to know is "How can we get 11 million subs paying $15 a month?!?!". The answer is that they would have to out-Blizzard Blizzard and it is difficult.

Development companies need to have the attitude that they are not going to compete with WOW but focus on releasing awesome, unique, completed products. Let me use movies as an example. Two of the BEST movies I have seen all year are District 9 and 500 Days of Summer. Did those movies release trying to get the same $200 earning that movies like Transformers 2, G.I. Joe and Harry Potter were after? Not at all. Those 2 movies were content with making a great little, indie films that were awesome in their own right.

My blame goes to companies that do fail and fail miserably. Personally, I think companies like Aventurine are more to blame for the state of the MMO market than Blizzard. Darkfall was going to be a niche game, that is a given. There are simply not that many people out there who want a hardcore, FFA MMO. Aventurine was content with that. The problem was the game was a buggy, half finished, mess of a game. The game could be doing great had Aventurine bothered to release a great, complete, finished game (and yes I know MMO's are never complete but you know what I mean).

I hope innovation and a game to out-WOW WOW comes soon. Personally, I have my hopes now on "The Secret World" but we will see. The past few major MMO's that promised the world and delivered much less (AOC, WAR, AION for starters) have made me very circumspect and weary and untrusting of any MMO release. To me, its the fault of these failures and not the fault of the biggest MMo success as to why the market is in such stagnant waters right now.

Originally posted by Goatgod76

*NOTICE* Yes, the following WILL tick off the fanboys.

IMO...you know why MMO's lately lack anything exciting? It's BECAUSE of WoW.

Who is at fault for the condition the mmo market is in right now?

1) blizzard for making a well designed, polished game that delivers what is promised. 

2) dozens of companies for rushing unfinished games to market that are in such abysmal condition the overwhelming majority of people to try them leave within a few weeks or months.

I'm sorry, but there is a reason that one game is dominating this market.  Wow is a good game that is surrounded by an ocean of crap with very few exceptions.  Blizzard has no control over how poorly other companies release their mmos.  They cannot dictate that other companies destroy their game by trying to emulate warcraft and even failing at that. 

Imagine what the marketplace would be if SWG, DDO, Vanguard and any other number of games that tried to be different did not suck, get ruined and actually delivered fully functional well designed mmos?  What company in their right mind should invest their money to emulate failure? 

Maybe you should try placing a little responsibility on the companies that are failing to make this a competitive market for a change.  I just don't get the mindset of blaming a successful company for the failures of so many other companies. 

 What people seem to not understand is the state of the MMO market prior to WoW, the best we had coming was Vanguard, WoW may have made developers (for now!) focus on the WoW model to try and get a piece of the pie but it expanded the MMO market (most of WoW Players were actually people who would have never bought an MMO in the first place) and it showed the industry that there was big bucks to be made out of MMORPGs and that millions could be invested in these projects, sure you can say WoW is dumbed down etc... but this big BOOM of MMO's coming out in the next few years only really happened because of WoW.

Sure for now everyone seems to follow the same model , blizzard still holds the biggest stake in the market, but even now you start seeing alot of people who started playing with WoW already looking for other MMOs and other experiences give it more time and this will happen ever more often opening the market and creating oportunities for other sub-genres.

Originally posted by Horusra

You will never see another EQ1 or UO because they failed in a business sense.  They have a craptastic design that a majority of the public rejected.  There were not enough basement living jobless people living with their parents to make the games as profitable as WoW.  That age of "Real MMO's" is dead basically because they were not the real MMO's.  I think Massive has a new term....million...not thousands.  The WoW model of casual MMO's is the future.  Stop talking like my grandparents about walking to school in snow....we have cars now and we do not have 2 hours a day to waste walking to school one way.  The age of the grind-fest that people seem to call "hardcore" is done.

This sounds like something coming from someone who never experienced them and knows gaming time in only WoW. EQ and UO were MASSIVELY popular then. They were the first of their kind. Sorry to burst your bubble, but do you think ANY MMO you play now ISN'T a grindfest? Even your beloved WoW is.

So, thank you for proving that the WoW players are ravenous and ignorant as to the whole history of MMO's. If you spent more time actually dwelving into near as many games as I have (Been playing since before you were born I'm betting), you'd see the good and bad points in all of them, and what combination makes great games, instead of wearing blinders and focusing on one you like.

 At least all of this is helping me study the player market before I graduate and enter the field. Hopefully someday though, I can get together...even a small team, and prove that a big company with a big game that follows the trends isn't the only way to make success. Hell, look at EVE Online. Still going strong after 6 years, and it hasn't conformed to be like Freelancer, etc.

Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by Goatgod76

*NOTICE* Yes, the following WILL tick off the fanboys.

IMO...you know why MMO's lately lack anything exciting? It's BECAUSE of WoW.

 

Who is at fault for the condition the mmo market is in right now?

1) blizzard for making a well designed, polished game that delivers what is promised. 

2) dozens of companies for rushing unfinished games to market that are in such abysmal condition the overwhelming majority of people to try them leave within a few weeks or months.

 

I'm sorry, but there is a reason that one game is dominating this market.  Wow is a good game that is surrounded by an ocean of crap with very few exceptions.  Blizzard has no control over how poorly other companies release their mmos.  They cannot dictate that other companies destroy their game by trying to emulate warcraft and even failing at that. 

Imagine what the marketplace would be if SWG, DDO, Vanguard and any other number of games that tried to be different did not suck, get ruined and actually delivered fully functional well designed mmos?  What company in their right mind should invest their money to emulate failure? 

 

Maybe you should try placing a little responsibility on the companies that are failing to make this a competitive market for a change.  I just don't get the mindset of blaming a successful company for the failures of so many other companies. 

While I agree with some of your points, you, as many others, are still ENTIRELY missing the point of what I am trying to say. But why keep repeating myself to those that only want to see one side of the coin.

The OP sums up what most people feel about this industry.

But I would widen the gap between WOW and the rest even more. WOW 9/10 and the rest around 5-ish.

Everything else simply lacks the resources of a Blizzard game.

Resources as in manpower.

Just one example? Look at the itemisation in the games.

Just one tiny (but important) part of any fantasy mmorpg with gear.

The OP is not telling something new. He just confirmed what we already all knew.

---

Originally posted by Goatgod76
*NOTICE* Yes, the following WILL tick off the fanboys.
IMO...you know why MMO's lately lack anything exciting? It's BECAUSE of WoW.
First off, I played WoW (unfortunately) from release until just before release of LoTK, so this isn't completely one sided. Yes, their were some good things that came from WoW, although few and far between. It was so easy that it wasn't fun. Unless you enjoyed ganking/griefing low levels all day, which was never in short supply in WoW.
Now, almost every company out there tries to mirror WoW to some degree...and fails miserably. They need to STOP trying to be WoW and be original...or at least more creative and look beyond that game. Every company has lost sight of what MMO's were about in the beginning (EQ/UO era). Then, they were about quests with meaning and real story behind them (Not a billion meaningless "Kill/Collect X amount of X" quests), they were about adventure and grouping with meaning...that led to long term friendships and a great community, etc. People were helpful, friendly, and even generous...helping new players with directions (There was no MMO GPS), obtaining gear, etc. Playing those games didn't feel like a console game, they  took you to another world where you could be another person in another time. No, I am not a RP'er, but when I started playing EQ in 99', that is what it made me feel like personally, because I had been a console player to that point. It was a unique and exciting change that I didn't look back from for many years. It was like playing a living,breathing, fantasy book.
 
Now?....I'm mainly back to playing console games. Why? Because almost everything I mentioned above is gone. When WoW made MMO's mainstream and brought massive attention to them, it brought with it a new generation of MMO players that to me shouldn't be here. They are mainly console FPS players (IMO) that are simply looking to whore stats and smack talk/grief/gank everyone and anyone. The communities are greedy and rude for the most part, only thinking of themselves unless their is something in it for them. It's near impossible to find groups, people ninja gear everyone worked hard for, players will leave in the middle of a dungeon if things aren't going well quickly enough for them and leave you stranded, or leave once they get what they want. Don't ask a question...because then you will be called names and mocked. How does that make a new player feel? Does it make them want to stay? I say no.
Quests are bland and meaningless...they give you no real feeling of accomplishment. They consist of mainly the types I mentioned above. And even worse, usually give meaningless rewards. Mobs are too predictable and in most cases easy. WAY TOO GEAR BASED! This was WoW's main flaw IMO. If you didn't have purples, you didn't stand a chance...unless faced with other blue/green wearers, which was rare. Everything is about stats and reputation now...FPS elements. And this doesn't just go for WoW. I can name countless MMO's that now have most of these things.
 
I'm blathering now. Anyway, to sum things up, I feel WoW changed MMO's for the worse personally. Every company does the same cookie cutter technique and stagnates the MMO market with the same boring crap trying to BE WoW. Star Wars: The Old Republic will be my last hope more than likely. IDK, keeping my eye on Everquest Next as well to see where that goes, although I don't hold much hope in Sony anymore either.
 
P.S. Personally I think PvP should of been left in console games. It is another reason communities lack any real bond and sense of actual community. Been playing EVE on and off for a bit over 2 years. It is the ONLY MMO that I have seen exciting PvP, and done right. Long character progression to become decent, hence, small community...but a decent one.

---

I quote this in the hopes that people will read it a second time.

A pox on WoW!

The OP sums up what most people feel about this industry: WOw and the rest in shackles.

The OP is not telling something new. He just confirmed what we already all knew.

Oops.....:))) Those of you in here that still want to vomit on WOW.

You must have really really really bad taste.

What are you even doing in the game industry if a company like Blizzard is spit upon?

OP is giving his opinion and he has every right to, but its just his opinion.

Ive been playing MMO's  over 10Yrs.. I was in Everquest 1 beta for 6months before release. Ive played entirely to many mmo's to list.

While WoW did hold my attention for about 4yrs, they screwed the pooch when they started normalizing the game. By normalizing I mean, making it a Epic slot machine. If you pull the handle enough times you get free epics. I understand that everyone isn't a hardcore player and everyone isn't a casual player. They thing is, you cant please all the people all the time. So why try. Now WoW is simply a joke. Yes it has 5million accounts, so what. How many US accounts is a number I'd like to see.

I would absolutely kill for a new version of Everquest 1. Some of the most fun Ive ever had playing MMO's came during long raids on the Rathe Council or PoHate. I still remember trying to organize 72 people in a raid with no vent or voice comm of any kind. That shit was fun. No one screaming in vent and throwing tantrums.

No Instances, Racing other guilds to boss spawns. Honest to god rivalries between several guilds. Not the current Epeen shit that goes on in WoW today.

I quit wow several months ago and dont see myself going back.

SWToR, Global Agenda or maybe even Aion (just something to kill time)...

@ user above:

Spitting on a game you enjoyed playing for ... 4 years is so dedain.

I saw today - in game - the flying mount a gladiator got from the last season. It was awesome.

These rewards for achieving VERY difficult things and VERY rare things are awesome.

And they are NO longer being expressed in "epic" gear.

The fact you didn't get this new principle: gear is ONLY a means to higher ends, shows you are not  mature enough for the newer generation of mmo's.

Gear is NO longer a sole motivator in WOW. Timeless mounts for example show MUCH more status than a purple colored gear pixel.

And I am very happy for this.

Originally posted by Goatgod76

 

This sounds like something coming from someone who never experienced them and knows gaming time in only WoW. EQ and UO were MASSIVELY popular then. They were the first of their kind. Sorry to burst your bubble, but do you think ANY MMO you play now ISN'T a grindfest? Even your beloved WoW is.

 

So, thank you for proving that the WoW players are ravenous and ignorant as to the whole history of MMO's. If you spent more time actually dwelving into near as many games as I have (Been playing since before you were born I'm betting), you'd see the good and bad points in all of them, and what combination makes great games, instead of wearing blinders and focusing on one you like.

 At least all of this is helping me study the player market before I graduate and enter the field. Hopefully someday though, I can get together...even a small team, and prove that a big company with a big game that follows the trends isn't the only way to make success. Hell, look at EVE Online. Still going strong after 6 years, and it hasn't conformed to be like Freelancer, etc.

 

I bought UO the first day it came out.  I picked AC over EQ and fought the Web board wars.  Live AC or Die EQ.  I then played WoW and EQ2 the first day they came out.  EQ2 failed back then.  Then I played WAR, Anarchy Online, AoC, EQ2 again.  Frankly the grind in UO and AC was a grind of pointlessly killing monsters in an area till you dinged and moved to a new area.  In WoW the "grind" is doing quests and in my opinion multitudes of happiness better in speed, different activites done, and moving around.  Does it effect community...yeah...but in my opinion if you wanted a chat room to do a boring grind so you could just talk go play Second Life.  I want to join a group to accomplish a purpose not just grind mobs and talk.

So if you were playing games before I was born then you must mean games from the pre-pc era...did they have punch card computer games in the 60's?

I am not a crazed fan of WoW, but of the new assertion that grinding mobs is a failed and uninspired game model.  WoW has proven this.  A quest driven game will beat a grind mob driven game any time.

Originally posted by Dubhlaith

 

---

Originally posted by Goatgod76
*NOTICE* Yes, the following WILL tick off the fanboys.
IMO...you know why MMO's lately lack anything exciting? It's BECAUSE of WoW.
First off, I played WoW (unfortunately) from release until just before release of LoTK, so this isn't completely one sided. Yes, their were some good things that came from WoW, although few and far between. It was so easy that it wasn't fun. Unless you enjoyed ganking/griefing low levels all day, which was never in short supply in WoW.
Now, almost every company out there tries to mirror WoW to some degree...and fails miserably. They need to STOP trying to be WoW and be original...or at least more creative and look beyond that game. Every company has lost sight of what MMO's were about in the beginning (EQ/UO era). Then, they were about quests with meaning and real story behind them (Not a billion meaningless "Kill/Collect X amount of X" quests), they were about adventure and grouping with meaning...that led to long term friendships and a great community, etc. People were helpful, friendly, and even generous...helping new players with directions (There was no MMO GPS), obtaining gear, etc. Playing those games didn't feel like a console game, they  took you to another world where you could be another person in another time. No, I am not a RP'er, but when I started playing EQ in 99', that is what it made me feel like personally, because I had been a console player to that point. It was a unique and exciting change that I didn't look back from for many years. It was like playing a living,breathing, fantasy book.
 
Now?....I'm mainly back to playing console games. Why? Because almost everything I mentioned above is gone. When WoW made MMO's mainstream and brought massive attention to them, it brought with it a new generation of MMO players that to me shouldn't be here. They are mainly console FPS players (IMO) that are simply looking to whore stats and smack talk/grief/gank everyone and anyone. The communities are greedy and rude for the most part, only thinking of themselves unless their is something in it for them. It's near impossible to find groups, people ninja gear everyone worked hard for, players will leave in the middle of a dungeon if things aren't going well quickly enough for them and leave you stranded, or leave once they get what they want. Don't ask a question...because then you will be called names and mocked. How does that make a new player feel? Does it make them want to stay? I say no.
Quests are bland and meaningless...they give you no real feeling of accomplishment. They consist of mainly the types I mentioned above. And even worse, usually give meaningless rewards. Mobs are too predictable and in most cases easy. WAY TOO GEAR BASED! This was WoW's main flaw IMO. If you didn't have purples, you didn't stand a chance...unless faced with other blue/green wearers, which was rare. Everything is about stats and reputation now...FPS elements. And this doesn't just go for WoW. I can name countless MMO's that now have most of these things.
 
I'm blathering now. Anyway, to sum things up, I feel WoW changed MMO's for the worse personally. Every company does the same cookie cutter technique and stagnates the MMO market with the same boring crap trying to BE WoW. Star Wars: The Old Republic will be my last hope more than likely. IDK, keeping my eye on Everquest Next as well to see where that goes, although I don't hold much hope in Sony anymore either.
 
P.S. Personally I think PvP should of been left in console games. It is another reason communities lack any real bond and sense of actual community. Been playing EVE on and off for a bit over 2 years. It is the ONLY MMO that I have seen exciting PvP, and done right. Long character progression to become decent, hence, small community...but a decent one.

---

 

I quote this in the hopes that people will read it a second time.

A pox on WoW!

I really agree. The genre has changed quite a bit. I started EQ when i was 10 years old. I was the only person my age for a while. only mt one other. There was so much community in EQ that, I had to act maturely if i wanted to succed. Eventhough i acted maturely dispite NEEDING too. Also I was one of those people who enjoyed camping. Man i was down in Lower Guk for a month fishing and camping a alligator. IT WAS FUN. I also spent a while in Dulak's Harbor soloinfg for gems to vendor so that i could buy a mount. I ENJOYED IT.

If i had to spend a month grinding for something in a mordern MMO, my eyes would bleed. The lack of fun in MMO's (cause by WoW) has caused anything that requires a grind terrible.

Btw in all the countless hours i spent playing EQ, I never refered to any task as Grinding. The word grind (with a neg conotation) and MMO started when WoW effed the market.

Actually your mistaken.

First Off, I didn't spit on WoW, I still have an active account. I just don't log into it.

Secondly, Ive probably got more titles from High end content than you think. So I do understand that gear is only a means to an end. But when your raiding Ulduar and you only have a boss or 2 that you havent beat on hard mode, it gets boring fast. I have all the tiitles and max faction from Wrath that I care to. I have every recipe in Inscription and LW prior to 3.2. There isnt much left. Sad thing is, none of it was hard.  There is absolutely no challenge in wow at this point. Its Boring.. Its for a casual gamer who is there to epeen and dance around dalaran in all his Epic Glory... who gives a f***... I get sick of the tells.. hey, where did that weapon come from, can i have 1g, hey let me link my old world orange sword in trade, let me start making up sentences using the word ANAL so i can get a laugh.... the whole wow experience has become more a giant children's chat room than an MMO game.

Originally posted by Swoogie

I really agree. The genre has changed quite a bit. I started EQ when i was 10 years old. I was the only person my age for a while. only mt one other. There was so much community in EQ that, I had to act maturely if i wanted to succed. Eventhough i acted maturely dispite NEEDING too. Also I was one of those people who enjoyed camping. Man i was down in Lower Guk for a month fishing and camping a alligator. IT WAS FUN. I also spent a while in Dulak's Harbor soloinfg for gems to vendor so that i could buy a mount. I ENJOYED IT.

If i had to spend a month grinding for something in a mordern MMO, my eyes would bleed. The lack of fun in MMO's (cause by WoW) has caused anything that requires a grind terrible.

Btw in all the countless hours i spent playing EQ, I never refered to any task as Grinding. The word grind (with a neg conotation) and MMO started when WoW effed the market.

Finally.. Someone who gets it.  Well Said...

Originally posted by Horusra

Originally posted by Goatgod76

 

This sounds like something coming from someone who never experienced them and knows gaming time in only WoW. EQ and UO were MASSIVELY popular then. They were the first of their kind. Sorry to burst your bubble, but do you think ANY MMO you play now ISN'T a grindfest? Even your beloved WoW is.

 

So, thank you for proving that the WoW players are ravenous and ignorant as to the whole history of MMO's. If you spent more time actually dwelving into near as many games as I have (Been playing since before you were born I'm betting), you'd see the good and bad points in all of them, and what combination makes great games, instead of wearing blinders and focusing on one you like.

 At least all of this is helping me study the player market before I graduate and enter the field. Hopefully someday though, I can get together...even a small team, and prove that a big company with a big game that follows the trends isn't the only way to make success. Hell, look at EVE Online. Still going strong after 6 years, and it hasn't conformed to be like Freelancer, etc.

 

 

I bought UO the first day it came out.  I picked AC over EQ and fought the Web board wars.  Live AC or Die EQ.  I then played WoW and EQ2 the first day they came out.  EQ2 failed back then.  Then I played WAR, Anarchy Online, AoC, EQ2 again.  Frankly the grind in UO and AC was a grind of pointlessly killing monsters in an area till you dinged and moved to a new area.  In WoW the "grind" is doing quests and in my opinion multitudes of happiness better in speed, different activites done, and moving around.  Does it effect community...yeah...but in my opinion if you wanted a chat room to do a boring grind so you could just talk go play Second Life.  I want to join a group to accomplish a purpose not just grind mobs and talk.

So if you were playing games before I was born then you must mean games from the pre-pc era...did they have punch card computer games in the 60's?

I am not a crazed fan of WoW, but of the new assertion that grinding mobs is a failed and uninspired game model.  WoW has proven this.  A quest driven game will beat a grind mob driven game any time.

Well, my apologies if  I offended you. I did come off a bit, er, standoffish. Sadly, I am getting use to that from ravenous WoW fans if you dare bring up a negative fact of the game, or promote ideas outside of it.

As for the last part of your post...I agree...to a point. Some of the most fun of my EQ days was finding a nice quiet area to grind mobs. Simply for the excitement of what could drop off of them next. Mobs didn't always drop the same 3 pieces of gear. I guess it depends on the players preference...but most MMO's now make everything a rush to get to the top. Again, that is what console games are for. MMORPG...the last part is most important...Role Playing Game...meaning "longer story driven game".

WoW was NOT quest driven. Well, it WAS, but NOT in a good way. Most of the quests were "Collect/Kill X amount of X" quests. Lazily done quests to fill up space, not drive an ongoing story. Hopefully, SWTOR will hold true and have it's entire NPC collection voiced over and have truly epic Star Wars story driven quests and break the trend of Korean style collection quests.

Originally posted by todeswulf

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by Eben

Originally posted by templarga

 Maybe, just maybe if those companies and those developers and those investors would show a little innovation and create something unique then it might succeed.

 

Funny, Blizzard did neither, and they seem to be succeeding rather well.  What gives?

 

Mass advertisement. Especially using celebrities who probably never even heard of WoW or knew of online gaming before Blizzard waved cash in their face to say they play it. Which in turn made the kids go "Ew ew! Ozzy plays WoW, it must be cool!"

Ummm Kids aren't exactly huge fans of Ozzy's...Kids maybe in 1979 were. Out of all the people who did the Commericals the only ones who actually play were Mini Me and Ozzy, Mini me has alwasy been a huge gamer I have seen him at Dragon Con, Gen Con and Quake Con and not as a celeb he was there checking out the games and there has been a lot written about Ozzys WoW obsession...he approached Blizzard to do the Commerical after he saw the Shatner one.
 

 

There you have it, the secret to success. Make a game so dumbed down and simplistic that even Ozzy can play it.

Last time i checked no current game on the market is hard to play so i fail to see your point.

Originally posted by Goatgod76

*NOTICE* Yes, the following WILL tick off the fanboys.

IMO...you know why MMO's lately lack anything exciting? It's BECAUSE of WoW.

First off, I played WoW (unfortunately) from release until just before release of LoTK, so this isn't completely one sided. Yes, their were some good things that came from WoW, although few and far between. It was so easy that it wasn't fun. Unless you enjoyed ganking/griefing low levels all day, which was never in short supply in WoW.

Now, almost every company out there tries to mirror WoW to some degree...and fails miserably. They need to STOP trying to be WoW and be original...or at least more creative and look beyond that game. Every company has lost sight of what MMO's were about in the beginning (EQ/UO era). Then, they were about quests with meaning and real story behind them (Not a billion meaningless "Kill/Collect X amount of X" quests), they were about adventure and grouping with meaning...that led to long term friendships and a great community, etc. People were helpful, friendly, and even generous...helping new players with directions (There was no MMO GPS), obtaining gear, etc. Playing those games didn't feel like a console game, they  took you to another world where you could be another person in another time. No, I am not a RP'er, but when I started playing EQ in 99', that is what it made me feel like personally, because I had been a console player to that point. It was a unique and exciting change that I didn't look back from for many years. It was like playing a living,breathing, fantasy book.

 

Now?....I'm mainly back to playing console games. Why? Because almost everything I mentioned above is gone. When WoW made MMO's mainstream and brought massive attention to them, it brought with it a new generation of MMO players that to me shouldn't be here. They are mainly console FPS players (IMO) that are simply looking to whore stats and smack talk/grief/gank everyone and anyone. The communities are greedy and rude for the most part, only thinking of themselves unless their is something in it for them. It's near impossible to find groups, people ninja gear everyone worked hard for, players will leave in the middle of a dungeon if things aren't going well quickly enough for them and leave you stranded, or leave once they get what they want. Don't ask a question...because then you will be called names and mocked. How does that make a new player feel? Does it make them want to stay? I say no.

Quests are bland and meaningless...they give you no real feeling of accomplishment. They consist of mainly the types I mentioned above. And even worse, usually give meaningless rewards. Mobs are too predictable and in most cases easy. WAY TOO GEAR BASED! This was WoW's main flaw IMO. If you didn't have purples, you didn't stand a chance...unless faced with other blue/green wearers, which was rare. Everything is about stats and reputation now...FPS elements. And this doesn't just go for WoW. I can name countless MMO's that now have most of these things.

 

I'm blathering now. Anyway, to sum things up, I feel WoW changed MMO's for the worse personally. Every company does the same cookie cutter technique and stagnates the MMO market with the same boring crap trying to BE WoW. Star Wars: The Old Republic will be my last hope more than likely. IDK, keeping my eye on Everquest Next as well to see where that goes, although I don't hold much hope in Sony anymore either.

 

P.S. Personally I think PvP should of been left in console games. It is another reason communities lack any real bond and sense of actual community. Been playing EVE on and off for a bit over 2 years. It is the ONLY MMO that I have seen exciting PvP, and done right. Long character progression to become decent, hence, small community...but a decent one.

You, my friend, are what I like to call a "True Mmo Player". You, like myself, are sick of the "collect X kill Y" quests. You miss the old quests that had meaning. I once played a game and did a quest that wasnt "Kill X amount of X"...It was "theres a dragon named XXXXX whos slaughtered nearly all of my men. Even my bravest warriors fear his might. I need a hero...I need you to kill the dragon. Kill the dragon and I will reward you. Do not fail...the fate of the kingdom rests in your hands..." - that is a quest with meaning...I am a hero now...I have to kill this dragon or he will continue to ravage the kingdom. I know my duty and my purpose unlike the "kill X" quests. Why am I killing X? what did X ever do to you?

I too miss these games. I miss MMO's as they were. WoW has changed the market of MMO's...and to the guy that was complaining about this post saying that he was blaming it on blizzard...I'm sorry, but it is blizzards fault. If they hadn't brought all the console FPS players then other companies wouldn't have to meet thier expectations. If it was just the hardcore MMO players then companies could make true MMO's...and not have to worry about wether or not they have enough quests to keep the children with attention spans of 5 seconds interested.

This is the main reason that I'm in college studying game design, because I want to start a company to make a true MMO. Not these fluffy meaningless patched up clients that we play. I want to make an MMO that doesn't try to be like WoW and is uniqe. Some thing to bring back the good old days.

Hopefully I wont fail at it.

I love how there is so much shit talking about ones maturity or age in MMOs, especially when people differ from your own opinions.

 Okay, I guess I'll bite the troll's foot. Here's my WoW vs Everything post:

World of Warcraft - Bright graphics that look like a lollipop paradise, although they do fit the game's setting and lore. The music is repeatitive to say the least. Half the continents are only available by purchasing two expansion packs, at 20 dollars a piece, as are 3 of the classes. In other words, it's 60 bucks just to experience the whole game. The game is full of a horrible community, and the assets for guilds, friends, and handling the ignore list (which is going to grow REALLY big... in your first day) are very barebone. The Open World PvP is only available to very well geared 80's (or whatever they jack the level cap to by the time I post this). Battlegrounds are dominated by Twinks, meaning normal players aren't able to go in and have much fun. The game is entirely gear and really just a grind to the max level to inch out any little bit of fun. All in all, 3/10 . It has a decent sized world, quite a nice one if you pay 60 bucks to get the whole game, but the graphics are very blocky and outdated (and yes, they can update their engine, EVE did it, Planet Calypso went from a crappy engine to CryENGINE 2, don't tell me WoW can't) and the community delivers the killing blow. Again I say, 3/10.

Lord of the Rings Online - VERY good graphics, they've taken the time to incorporate DX10 as well. The world is a decent size, enough to keep someone exploring to their max level but you won't be going back to find more at all, as the storyline leads you to most iconic spots and you'll probably end up finding the rest if you explore at all. The PvE really is some of the best, with the book quests. It actually KEEPS everyone pretty on spot with their level, although you can go off and do as you wish. It's always easy to find a group. The PvP is rather medicore, although PvMP is really quite fun, and the teamwork required is very awesome. It's also nice to see such a fleshed out monster side for the mode. All in all, I give this a 8/10 because the PvE content will keep you very entertained to the cap, and the dungeons are fairly well made. There's plenty to keep you entertained, not to mention the solid, friendly userbase and price point of 10 bucks. Again, 8/10

DDO - Fun game, although the dungeons get tiring after a while. No exploration is a downfall. Graphics are fairly medicore, but I love the combat. All in all, 6/10 for combat and the traps and puzzles in dungeons, it keeps you entertained until you hit the level cap of 20, being free helps.

CO - I have not played, I will not judge.

City of Heroes - The best MMORPG character creation to date (excluding CO, which probably steals the title) and a fleshed out universe. The quests are fairly boring, and there's not much for the instance interiors, about 7 - 12 different themes. It doesn't really make you feel like a superhero, although the idea is neat. Flying is fun... :P The city and various areas are fun to explore and offer neat little things. The graphics are really quite nice for an MMO it's age, the physics system is a REALLY nice touch. 7/10

Darkfall - I am buying it soon, but otherwise, have not played, will not judge.

Warhammer Online - I love the game, the PvP is pretty intense, especially the higher level keep taking. The graphics are superb, although the PvE is pretty bad. There's good ideas like the Public Quest system that just isn't used enough. It supports a good bit of land for exploration. It also offers 6 races (it counts it's Goblins and Orcs as "greenskins" so, technically 7) and 18 classes. The character customization lacks depth, on par with a game like WoW's. All in all, it offers great entertainment if you like the PvP, and the art style and graphics are pretty awesome, 8/10.

EVE Online - The graphics are great, and nearly everything is player run. Because of this, I have never seen something more immersive. For some people, it's like a true second life, I am one of those people. I am constantly staying on top of it with things like EVEMON and EFT. Very dynamic game with in-depth.. .well... everything. Tons of skills, great character creation (even if it is just a picture). 9/10 (not 10 for lack of better PvE stuff)

I choose not to list F2P games, as there's quite a number of them and each has it's merits.

Thank You,

 - Eric

Originally posted by Zorndorf

The OP sums up what most people feel about this industry.

But I would widen the gap between WOW and the rest even more. WOW 9/10 and the rest around 5-ish.

Everything else simply lacks the resources of a Blizzard game.

Resources as in manpower.

Just one example? Look at the itemisation in the games.

Just one tiny (but important) part of any fantasy mmorpg with gear.

The OP is not telling something new. He just confirmed what we already all knew.

 

 

First off I love WoW but In trying out other games on the market I've come to respect games that try to be different.

As a WoW player I want other companies to release a different experience. I would totally agree with what you're saying if you didn't rate every other game a 5.  Games like Eve and even Ryzom are different enough that they give a WoW player like myself something else to play while WoW gets a bit tedious (farming gear that wont drop or when queues are slow).

So no not every game on the market is sub par besides WoW.

Is WoW the best? yeah. Is it the only quality MMO? Eve is the other one if I only had to pick two.