I don't really see it as that big of a deal. sure after playing many different games that have jump in them it is weird logging into FFXI, hitting space bar, and not jumping.

But I get used to it pretty quick(like 5-10mins?), it just isn't that big of a deal. What is great about it, is it doesn't look like im playing halo with all the spazzes jumping around the map.

nitpick more?

Originally posted by Varny

http://www.gametrailers.com/video/gc-09-final-fantasy/54744

I'm seeing this guy not have any jump and getting stuck on invisible walls. I mean this would be a killer for me because trying to walk around the landscape and not being able to walk or jump down somewhere and being stopped by an artificial invisible wall. I mean it looks really hard to tell where you can or can't go.

Skip to 1:13 and you see what I mean it looks like a maze of where you can or can't go and it's really hard to tell.

That really puts me off right there.

I understand your concern as someone who was in that boat in FFXI when it first came out. I was exactly like you thought for thought. Honestly even today when i play it...at times i'll be honest it does bother me, but not as much as you would think. It doesnt do it to the point of ruining emerrsion. What i can tell you is they have "talked" about adding jumping and such in if there is a great desire to have it by the playerbase. As far as I go...after seeing people make a mockery of Jump in Conan and WoW durring duels and PvP i dont mind not having it, i'm not saying people dont jump in a fight...but not like that. It just kills immersion for me whe i see someone jumping around like an idiot on tose games. Perhps if they just locked the jump command durring combat and made it available when out of combat. Anyway i hope this helps. ^^

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by weblinkz2002

Don't you just love it when people complain you can't jump.

I understand it becomes a problem when the map isn't designed well, but I do not think that jumping is a necessity when its not needed.

I kinda wonder the same thing... Why is jumping *so* big a deal? If nothing in the game design warrants or requires it, then why is it such an utter requirement in order for some to be able to enjoy the rest of the game? I mean, I've seen a significant number of people consider it a "deal breaker" to not have a jump button... Doesn't matter what game it is, how much there is to do or how much they'd enjoy it otherwise... No jump button, and they're not playing it.

I mean, I play these games, too... I've played a number of them with jumping, and a number of them without it. I've never felt it was missing from those that didn't have it. Sure it takes getting used to going from one to the other... but it's not "game breaking". 

I read some of the reasons people give for needing to have jumping for it to feel more "realistic" to them. They argue that since they can jump in real life, they should be able to jump in a game. To this I say okay... have jumping.. but if we're looking for realism, then let's have an endurance bar that drains every time you jump, so you can't jump more than, say, 3 times in rapid succession before having to let it refill. Not surprisingly, many I've said that to didn't like it... Suddenly "realism" isn't so important to them.

It's a rhetorical question, but I have to wonder why they'd oppose that? I mean, it's "realistic" to be able to jump, sure. But it's also realistic to wear yourself out by jumping repeatedly. Why would they welcome the former, but not the latter, when both are in the name of "realism"? Again, to me the reason is obvious...

Still on the "realism" kick... If you're going through a dangerous area in real life... some forest known to have wolves and other predators... Are you going to be jumping through the underbrush every 3 seconds, surely to attract unwanted attention? Wouldn't be very "realistic" would it? Yet, I can't begin to count how many MMOs I've played where people do just that. "Hey.. we're in the lair of the ultimate demon in this game world... There's creatures here who can kill us in 2 hits. We better be careful..." -hop-hop-hop-hop...  See, to me *that's* extremely unrealistic, not to mention distracting.

 

Jumpers always duck away from this argument.

If jumping is in game there need to be a type of stamina bar. That stamina bar should also be associated with running and combat. Jumping should drain the ever loving hell out of that bar too. Realism is the only convenient argument they use but the majority do not want realistic jumping. They just want spam jumping which is the exact oppisite of realism.

I still have a hard time understanding how people can be so simple minded that jumping makes any difference in a game.

The sticking point in your example is that the "realism" they want ALLOWS them to do something, while the "realism" you are talking about LIMITS what they can do.  Gamers want access to as many features as they can have, the closer to reality and the more abilities it gives them, the better.  Realistic limitations?  Not so much...

And, I can't say it surprises me.  Yes, I play a game and I want to jump.  Ever since the days of Super Mario Bros., jumping has been an important part of gaming for me.  And no, when I play the same game that I can jump in, I don't want a stamina bar LIMITING how often I can jump (now, mobs who could hear me jumping around in the forest... I'd actually like that).  But, in general, limitations don't fly because I play games to DO things beyond what I can do in RL, not face the same limitations that I do here.

That's the difference.

(BTW, it's not a deal-breaker for me, either... but, it does feel strange not being able to jump, in almost any game).

*edit: and I say all of this to play devil's advocate.  I'm actually a fan of Aion's flight timer because it's more realistic than just endless flight.  Still, jumping is a common element of gaming, but the "realistic" stamina bar isn't.  When you can't jump in a game, it feels like something standard is not included.  When you can jump, but there's a stamina bar, you feel like something standard has been needlessly nerfed ....

It doesn't bother me. Like I've said before, going into cities with everyone bouncing off the walls can make a game look really bad. Plus not being able to jump can add to interesting level designs. It's actually more realistic too... because in most MMOs when a character jumps it's like they're Luigi from Mario Brother 2. We won't be able to jump up anything more than hill and wouldn't risk jumping down anything more than a couple of feet.

Still I can understand people not liking it but I actually prefer it. Both of my favorite MMOs didn't have jumping. (Guild Wars an Final Fantasy XI.)

Originally posted by kamenwati

Please name another Final Fantasy game that had jumping.

FFVII - DoC

Originally posted by MustaphaMond

The sticking point in your example is that the "realism" they want ALLOWS them to do something, while the "realism" you are talking about LIMITS what they can do.  Gamers want access to as many features as they can have, the closer to reality and the more abilities it gives them, the better.  Realistic limitations?  Not so much...

And, I can't say it surprises me.  Yes, I play a game and I want to jump.  Ever since the days of Super Mario Bros., jumping has been an important part of gaming for me.  And no, when I play the same game that I can jump in, I don't want a stamina bar LIMITING how often I can jump (now, mobs who could hear me jumping around in the forest... I'd actually like that).  But, in general, limitations don't fly because I play games to DO things beyond what I can do in RL, not face the same limitations that I do here.

That's the difference.

(BTW, it's not a deal-breaker for me, either... but, it does feel strange not being able to jump, in almost any game).

Super mario has jumping obstacle. You miss you die. MMO's dont. Well the majority of them. How will you like miss jumping and fall to your death? Having to eat a big xp loss cause no one can raise you?

Sure put jumping obsticals in an MMO I am not aginst that. Atm there no real need to jump in an MMO. Other than to be "cute" and try jumping places you dont belong. Most map exploits invole jumping anyways so unless its needed just leave it out.

I wouldn't mind jumping in games if it weren't for the abuse.  Do you really want people standing on top of the mailbox or auction house counter while you're using them?  Seriously?  Do we really need to see a bunch of bunnies jumping around while they fight?  If SE wants you to transverse a particular part of the terrain, then they'll design the landscape to facilitate that.  They don't need to add jumping to accomplish that.

If people need jumping to make it more realistic or add to the immersion factor, then how about they add it strictly as animation and not for gaining any sort of vertical movement?  So you hit spacebar and you see your character jump but they don't actually leave the ground.  In fact, have it only show the jumping animation for the player and no one else... no more bunnies.

A game without a decent Z axis really lacks in immersion and doesn't feel realistic to me. 

I'm not looking for bunny hopping mechanics, but when I come to a low hillside, I want to be able to jump off of it, (even if it results in falling damage) and I should also be able to climb reasonable hills as a shortcut.

I dislike the concept of "map design" and pathing limitations, and that's just a preference of mine.  I can see where other folks might not care, or even enjoy trying to wend their way through a map (a la Guildwars) but its just not for me.

The only time not being able to jump in FFXI ever bothered me was when I was in front of a ledge that was like 3 feet high and I had to go all the way around the other side of the obstacle just to get on top of that area.

I don't mind not having a jump button, but a way to climb on top / hop off of obstacles realistically would be nice.

Originally posted by toddze

Originally posted by MustaphaMond

The sticking point in your example is that the "realism" they want ALLOWS them to do something, while the "realism" you are talking about LIMITS what they can do.  Gamers want access to as many features as they can have, the closer to reality and the more abilities it gives them, the better.  Realistic limitations?  Not so much...

And, I can't say it surprises me.  Yes, I play a game and I want to jump.  Ever since the days of Super Mario Bros., jumping has been an important part of gaming for me.  And no, when I play the same game that I can jump in, I don't want a stamina bar LIMITING how often I can jump (now, mobs who could hear me jumping around in the forest... I'd actually like that).  But, in general, limitations don't fly because I play games to DO things beyond what I can do in RL, not face the same limitations that I do here.

That's the difference.

(BTW, it's not a deal-breaker for me, either... but, it does feel strange not being able to jump, in almost any game).

 

Super mario has jumping obstacle. You miss you die. MMO's dont. Well the majority of them. How will you like miss jumping and fall to your death? Having to eat a big xp loss cause no one can raise you?

Sure put jumping obsticals in an MMO I am not aginst that. Atm there no real need to jump in an MMO. Other than to be "cute" and try jumping places you dont belong. Most map exploits invole jumping anyways so unless its needed just leave it out.

Like I said, I'm playing Devil's Advocate.  XI was actually one of my favorite games of all time, and I know Mario is of a very different genre than an MMO (and especially an MMORPG like FFXI or FFXIV).

Still, I was just trying to point out that jumping in a game is pretty normal.  Yes, in early RPG's it was rare...  But, things have changed a lot in recent years.

Does that change the fact that the people who hop-hop-hop around like bunnies aren't annoying?  No.  Does it make it truly "realistic" that they can jump over and over again without getting tired?  Not really.

All I was saying is that it's not really about "realism" for people who miss jumping in a game.  It's something that they are feeling is almost a "standard feature" of games, and when a game doesn't have it they just feel like it's incomplete.

Kinda like buying a new car, but it's a stick.  Even though there was a time when "automatic transmission" was optional and you had to pay extra for it, over the years it has become pretty much standard (though you can still get vehicles with a stick shift).  If you walked into a dealership today to look at a new(er) car, as soon as you sat in it you would see the stick shift and remark "whoa, it's doesn't have automatic transmission?  Sorry, that's a deal breaker..."

That's not a good example because some people can't drive a stick, while all gamers can play a game where you can't jump.  Still, my point remains that jumping, or swimming, or whatever other feature some people cling to are becoming industry standards.

I know that the FF games don't really feature these abilities, but c'mon... It's one of the most innovative series in gaming.  They change things from game to game, they add new stuff, and they tweak the gameplay continually.  It's not unthinkable to wonder why the game doesn't have jumping.

Now, the OP's "major concern" is a bit much, but it's alarming how some of you deride those who want jumping just because it's not in the game that you love.  I was just trying to point out that it's all but "standard", even if there are still games around that don't have jumping in them (i.e., those games are the rare stick shift you will encounter and marvel about).

It's not as extreme as the car comparison, but the point I'm making is valid.  If some of you would just rather argue about it than genuinely try to see it from the other side, fine.  I was just trying to help a few of you see that it's not unreasonable to want jumping in a game, final fantasy game or not.

As games change and people get used to certain features that were once optional becoming more and more common, long-standing series either change or hold onto their past practices.  In many ways, I'm glad SE stays true to the IP (most of the time...), but that doesn't mean things can't ever change.  I've just never been a fan of orthodoxy/dogmatic thinking, I guess.

Originally posted by Dameonk

The only time not being able to jump in FFXI ever bothered me was when I was in front of a ledge that was like 3 feet high and I had to go all the way around the other side of the obstacle just to get on top of that area.

I don't mind not having a jump button, but a way to climb on top / hop off of obstacles realistically would be nice.

You obviously weren't a taru... <(;-_-)>

We couldn't see over half the stuff right in front of us (short walls, rails, a small rock)... Your three foot ledge = Mt. Everest to us.

If there was a /climb command in XI, the Taru's would've busted out climbing gear and started repelling down short little drops (or climbing up them using pickaxes and whatnot).... XD

I kinda hope they leave out jumping in FFXIV as they did in FFXI, i dont really see the point of jumping in an MMO, unless they do a Tomb Raider MMO!

No, i would rather like see some sort of climping/jumping mechanisme, sorta like Zeldas, where its only avalible once you come to a ledge/ladder/other obsticals. You can either drop down, or climp up, that would be pretty cool IMO.

Me no want no PC bunnies jumping around monsters as they swing their sword :<

Originally posted by MustaphaMond 

You obviously weren't a taru... <(;-_-)>

We couldn't see over half the stuff right in front of us (short walls, rails, a small rock)... Your three foot ledge = Mt. Everest to us.

If there was a /climb command in XI, the Taru's would've busted out climbing gear and started repelling down short little drops (or climbing up them using pickaxes and whatnot).... XD

LOL, you got me there.  I was Hume.  Just picturing the Taru's trying to scale the 3 foot ledge gave me a good laugh.

Originally posted by MustaphaMond 

Like I said, I'm playing Devil's Advocate.  XI was actually one of my favorite games of all time, and I know Mario is of a very different genre than an MMO (and especially an MMORPG like FFXI or FFXIV).

Still, I was just trying to point out that jumping in a game is pretty normal.  Yes, in early RPG's it was rare...  But, things have changed a lot in recent years.

Does that change the fact that the people who hop-hop-hop around like bunnies aren't annoying?  No.  Does it make it truly "realistic" that they can jump over and over again without getting tired?  Not really.

All I was saying is that it's not really about "realism" for people who miss jumping in a game.  It's something that they are feeling is almost a "standard feature" of games, and when a game doesn't have it they just feel like it's incomplete.

Kinda like buying a new car, but it's a stick.  Even though there was a time when "automatic transmission" was optional and you had to pay extra for it, over the years it has become pretty much standard (though you can still get vehicles with a stick shift).  If you walked into a dealership today to look at a new(er) car, as soon as you sat in it you would see the stick shift and remark "whoa, it's doesn't have automatic transmission?  Sorry, that's a deal breaker..."

That's not a good example because some people can't drive a stick, while all gamers can play a game where you can't jump.  Still, my point remains that jumping, or swimming, or whatever other feature some people cling to are becoming industry standards.

I know that the FF games don't really feature these abilities, but c'mon... It's one of the most innovative series in gaming.  They change things from game to game, they add new stuff, and they tweak the gameplay continually.  It's not unthinkable to wonder why the game doesn't have jumping.

Now, the OP's "major concern" is a bit much, but it's alarming how some of you deride those who want jumping just because it's not in the game that you love.  I was just trying to point out that it's all but "standard", even if there are still games around that don't have jumping in them (i.e., those games are the rare stick shift you will encounter and marvel about).

It's not as extreme as the car comparison, but the point I'm making is valid.  If some of you would just rather argue about it than genuinely try to see it from the other side, fine.  I was just trying to help a few of you see that it's not unreasonable to want jumping in a game, final fantasy game or not.

As games change and people get used to certain features that were once optional becoming more and more common, long-standing series either change or hold onto their past practices.  In many ways, I'm glad SE stays true to the IP (most of the time...), but that doesn't mean things can't ever change.  I've just never been a fan of orthodoxy/dogmatic thinking, I guess.

The problem with your car analogy is that most people want automatic and, as this thread shows, I am not so sure most people want jumping. 

To continue on your car analogy, I could say the industry standard is to have gas powered vehicles so why should my car company ever make a hybrid or electric vehicle even though some people may like a hybrid or electric vehicle? 

I can see advantages to gas engines and hybrid engines just like I can see advantages to games with jumping and games without jumping.

Anyway, jumping has been around since EQ1 (at least) so its not like it is some amazing new feature to MMOs.  Sometimes the status quo isn't always a good thing.

I personally feel S-E is being innovative by not automatically including jumping like every other MMO.  And if you want that in car talk, then, yeah, I feel some car companies who are making hybrids and electric vehicles are being innovative for not sticking to the "industry standard" gas engine.

---

Originally posted by Kyleran

 

A game without a decent Z axis really lacks in immersion and doesn't feel realistic to me. 

---

I'm not sure what you mean by that. FFXI had a Z axis.

---

Originally posted by Kyleran

 

I'm not looking for bunny hopping mechanics, but when I come to a low hillside, I want to be able to jump off of it, (even if it results in falling damage) and I should also be able to climb reasonable hills as a shortcut.

I dislike the concept of "map design" and pathing limitations, and that's just a preference of mine. I can see where other folks might not care, or even enjoy trying to wend their way through a map (a la Guildwars) but its just not for me.

---

Again, if they intend you to fall off that cliff or get up that hill, the landscape will be designed to allow it. There were plenty of ledges and whatnot in FFXI that you could drop down, but only in places SE wanted that to happen. If they did add jumping, you still wouldn't be able to go places they don't want you to go by putting up invisible walls or making the hill just a bit bigger. So you wouldn't gain anything except the ability to exploit flaws in the terrain and get on top of things you're not supposed to.

Originally posted by Kyleran

A game without a decent Z axis really lacks in immersion and doesn't feel realistic to me. 

I'm not looking for bunny hopping mechanics, but when I come to a low hillside, I want to be able to jump off of it, (even if it results in falling damage) and I should also be able to climb reasonable hills as a shortcut.

I dislike the concept of "map design" and pathing limitations, and that's just a preference of mine.  I can see where other folks might not care, or even enjoy trying to wend their way through a map (a la Guildwars) but its just not for me.

 

Ummm, how do you have a game rendered in 3D without a z-axis?....

So no "map design" huh?  Well, good luck finding a game without maps.... but path limitation is meaningful. 

Rebel without a cause.

In all other MMORPG's I played, jumping annoyed me a lot.

If people just use it only at times when it is really needed... But people won't play like that.

So I prefer no jumping.

I do hope they will insert swimming, but only if they make the waterworld somewhat interesting.

And climbing, I don't really care. I don't find it important.

I don't mind swimming and climbing I can go either on that but please no jumping.  Jumping would allow exploits in the game just like in AoC.  Then you will have those people who constantly have to jump everywhere they go instead of walking.  Like someone else said if they include jumping they have go through the maps and look for places where people can exploit and then right a code so no one can go through that spot.  The time they use looking for jumping exploits they could spend it finishing up the game or anything else.  I would be pissed if someone was soloing Fafnir because he jumped on a ledge and Faffy can't hit him because he is out of range like the first raid bosses in AoC at launch.

Jumping in an action-RPG is good. Jumping in RPG isn't.

WoW is an action-RPG. Jumping in WoW is good.

FFXIV is an RPG. Jumping in FFXIV is nigh-useless.

So, why implement jumping? Only reason would be to please the dumb masses, and I hope in this case SE won't listen to their potential players since they have no clue (Surprise? Not really.)

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Jumping in an action-RPG is good. Jumping in RPG isn't.

WoW is an action-RPG. Jumping in WoW is good.

FFXIV is an RPG. Jumping in FFXIV is nigh-useless.

So, why implement jumping? Only reason would be to please the dumb masses, and I hope in this case SE won't listen to their potential players since they have no clue (Surprise? Not really.)

Maybe because there's obstacles to clear?

Originally posted by arctarus

 

Maybe because there's obstacles to clear?

Nigh-useless, like I said.

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by arctarus

 

Maybe because there's obstacles to clear?

Nigh-useless, like I said.

Here and there you will have things to go through, like obstacles so you need jumping, water, so you need swimming...

Sort of like in real life...

Originally posted by arctarus

 

Here and there you will have things to go through, like obstacles so you need jumping, water, so you need swimming...

Sort of like in real life...

Of course the world is designed in such a way that  unability to jump won't be a hindrance.

Originally posted by arctarus

 

Maybe because there's obstacles to clear?

 

Like sixpax said If SE intends an obstacle to be there jumping wont help you. Thats not a hard concept to understand. I fail to see how more people do not realize this.

Edit: Re-Read his post, its the first on this page. I could not have said it better myself.