I just can't understand how having a massive amount of names and twisted body models(since I doubt you'd see more than that at that number of players), bound together by a horrible server lag(not even master engines like L2's one can hold an exaggerated amount of players without ability/movement lag) and people running around doing random abilities(just spam w/e does damage, since most of the time it doesn't matter) make people happy?

I'm not against large-scale combat(which should be a normal number like 50-75) , but it's pretty retarded when people demand a huge amount of players zerging each other in(no matter how big the place is)a crowded lagfest. It removes any kind of personal skill. Hell, if you're versus personal skill(by playing the "MMO ain't FPS, dude" card, which is another lame thing, because there's much more to a RPG than numbers of players),then you'll realise it removes any tactics, like targetting certain players or moving to certain places to use certain things, because you'll simply can't.

It also seems like a masochistic type of gameplay, since I don't see how you can have fun by running around, spamming skills and hoping you zerg faster the other side(that, plus your entire screen being full of character models, instead of the landscape and other elements, like a RPG should be).

because some of us dont lag?

Well i love the idea of massive battles.. if the server is up for 600 players with no lag it should be a blast imo....

Originally posted by steamtank

because some of us dont lag?

Computer specs and sometimes, even connection speed can do nothing when the server is just, let's say "overloaded". There are some korean games out there than can easily support 500v500 battles, although with (max) 6 abilities and simplistic gameplay, I wouldn't call them RPGs.

Edit: There's also the problam of making those battles look decent instead of seeing the same characters over your entire screen, and the health bar being the only different thing from the dude-near-you's screen.

Originally posted by Thenarius

I just can't understand how having a massive amount of names and twisted body models(since I doubt you'd see more than that at that number of players), bound together by a horrible server lag(not even master engines like L2's one can hold an exaggerated amount of players without ability/movement lag) and people running around doing random abilities(just spam w/e does damage, since most of the time it doesn't matter) make people happy?

I'm not against large-scale combat(which should be a normal number like 50-75) , but it's pretty retarded when people demand a huge amount of players zerging each other in(no matter how big the place is)a crowded lagfest. It removes any kind of personal skill. Hell, if you're versus personal skill(by playing the "MMO ain't FPS, dude" card, which is another lame thing, because there's much more to a RPG than numbers of players),then you'll realise it removes any tactics, like targetting certain players or moving to certain places to use certain things, because you'll simply can't.

It also seems like a masochistic type of gameplay, since I don't see how you can have fun by running around, spamming skills and hoping you zerg faster the other side(that, plus your entire screen being full of character models, instead of the landscape and other elements, like a RPG should be).

Most people turn their graphics down to bare minimum for large pvp fights.  Most guilds will remind you in vent or whatever internet voice chat program you are using to do so, prior to a large fight.  Most games even have a hard coded hotkey set up to minimize the settings so you don't have to go to a set up screen to do it.  PvPers are not interested in pretty bushes and trees and grass.  They want to fight against each other and will use the most basic settings on the most intense gaming systems to get an edge if they can.

Originally posted by Aramath

Originally posted by Thenarius

I just can't understand how having a massive amount of names and twisted body models(since I doubt you'd see more than that at that number of players), bound together by a horrible server lag(not even master engines like L2's one can hold an exaggerated amount of players without ability/movement lag) and people running around doing random abilities(just spam w/e does damage, since most of the time it doesn't matter) make people happy?

I'm not against large-scale combat(which should be a normal number like 50-75) , but it's pretty retarded when people demand a huge amount of players zerging each other in(no matter how big the place is)a crowded lagfest. It removes any kind of personal skill. Hell, if you're versus personal skill(by playing the "MMO ain't FPS, dude" card, which is another lame thing, because there's much more to a RPG than numbers of players),then you'll realise it removes any tactics, like targetting certain players or moving to certain places to use certain things, because you'll simply can't.

It also seems like a masochistic type of gameplay, since I don't see how you can have fun by running around, spamming skills and hoping you zerg faster the other side(that, plus your entire screen being full of character models, instead of the landscape and other elements, like a RPG should be).

 

Most people turn their graphics down to bare minimum for large pvp fights.  Most guilds will remind you in vent or whatever internet voice chat program you are using to do so, prior to a large fight.  Most games even have a hard coded hotkey set up to minimize the settings so you don't have to go to a set up screen to do it.  PvPers are not interested in pretty bushes and trees and grass.  They want to fight against each other and will use the most basic settings on the most intense gaming systems to get an edge if they can.

But, is targetting and getting targetted by random people, with no actual way to show any kind of actual skill other than yelling who to target than focusfiring him(and I doubt someone can ever heal that).
In a 12v12 battle, you can call for CCs, heals, use the landscape around you as a weapon or use gameplay elements around you to succedd, which calls for a lot more coordonation and reaction required to win instead of "May RNG be with us".

you asked why some of us like huge battles.

I gave my answer.

unless the server is at fault, i dont lag in massive battles.  Without lag you can find the fun in massive army vs army battles where one side simply outlasts the other through cunning, tenacity, and teamwork.

I play competitve mmo's for the "whatif" factor battle sizes can become. sure 5v5 can be alot of fun. But i prefer a bit more spice in my mmo meal.

what if: my team kills the other 5 and they are in a large guild

what if: another guild not allied with either side shows up on the field

so on and so forth.

not liking epic sized battles is fine. Its not for everyone, the same can be said for not liking small team warfare, its not for everyone.  i like both, so i play games that offer both. This can only be obtained in a rvr /pvp/ or sandbox type mmo so those are what i play.

Because 301 vs. 301 is just too many.

Not a big fan of RvR, myself. Even less so when such high numbers are involved.

Nothing to do with the concept; I like the idea of faction vs faction combat .. but the implementation in all of the games that I've seen amount to huge spammy zergfest where everyone just AOEs the crap out of the opposing side. The nearest approximation of tactical thinking amounts to:

"We're winning! CHARGE!" or "We're losing! RUN AWAY!"

Utterly bereft of enjoyment as far as I'm concerned.

Having to reduce your graphcis down to 1998 quality, plus all the horrid latnecy isn't worth the trade off.  I just love playing a game that has to look like crap to allow that many players to interact.  Not worth it to me.  After about a minute the coolness factor is over anyway.  Besides, like everyone knows, theres no skill invovled when that many players bump heads.   8 vs 8 or 20 vs 20 requires real skill and coordination.  After that, communication breaks down except in the most ideal of situations.  A zerg is just a zerg.  Mindless. 

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Not a big fan of RvR, myself. Even less so when such high numbers are involved.

Nothing to do with the concept; I like the idea of faction vs faction combat .. but the implementation in all of the games that I've seen amount to huge spammy zergfest where everyone just AOEs the crap out of the opposing side. The nearest approximation of tactical thinking amounts to:

"We're winning! CHARGE!" or "We're losing! RUN AWAY!"

Utterly bereft of enjoyment as far as I'm concerned.

i've always gotten in with guilds that play tactics over anything else. Usually these guilds are more "hardcore" i think of them as simply being less lienent towards asshattery.

Alot of people are not willing to sacrifice the "i want to do this" to be part of a team exersize, if you get in with a large guild that has fun by functioning as a large unit the beauty of epic battles unfolds.

Thats when you see flanking, ambushing, proper terrain use, proper seige and seige defenses, chokepoints used the right way, ect.

pug battles are the ones that result in the senerio you posted, i refuse to fight in those, its guild or nothing.

I totally understand not liking the huge scale battles though, since i have seen the senerio you posted, i just learned to avoid those groups of players, not the size of the fight.

ps to everyone being negative:

read the thread.... its asking why people LIKE massive battles, not why they DONT.

I'm in the minority of players that likes 1v1 - 5v5 battles.  Anything over that I tend to not participate in it, I'll gladly stroll on by and it's not because of lag etc.  It's just not my thing, I've tried it plenty of times with guilds, solo, etc.  I just don't care for it.  I'll be off in the distance with a friend looking for 2v2's and 2vX fights. 

I can see how people like them though.  That epic feeling, the feeling of being in a war etc.   For leaders and guilds it's a great feeling to conquer something like that.  For others it's easy, you don't have know the ins and outs of your class and every other class, just as long as you know the macro side of things (the big picture).  Anyone can participate in large scale battles, from complete scrubs to really good players and have lots of fun doing it.

I LOVE large scale multicombat pvp!! I love the unpredictability, anything can happen, anything goes chaos atmosphere. I don't lag, am on headset during them and it is a hellofalot less boring than small scale battles.

  I disagree that it removes  personal skill, it is more of a challenge and  takes more endurance than the smaller battles.  When you see your name spammed across the screen and know you have 300 people trying to kill you at once, it is awesome to survive that .. Knowing their entire team is trying to kill you, but you outwitted them, makes you feel like you actually accomplished something.. you know when you just have a few people trying to pk you , not a big deal to survive, but when you can completely seeing them spam your name and you manage to survive while your team wipes out the majority of their team it really is entertaining.

I particularly enjoy anything goes battles, where you can be fighting one  guild 200 vs 200 and another guild ambushes you and suddenly your fighting 2 guilds at once, while looters are anyone shows up in the process.. to me that brings excitement into what would otherwise be predictable combat.  If you are a war leader, you have to have on the spot strategy that changes  during the course of the battle,  you  have to  gain control over the battlefield and  and be able to make sure your forces are strong enough and well trained enough to be able to implement the gameplans.  Even if you are not a leader in these type of battles, you must make sure you know what to do and can pull your own weight as well, and be able to react at a much higher rate than regular small scale battles. There is a huge difference between having 300 people trying to kill you than having a smaller group and it ups the risks and skill it takes to survive that.  There is not much room for error in that situation, so you better be prepared.

If you are playing those type of battles without tactics and strategy, you are going about it all wrong ..  There should always be teams within teams, and the teams must work together.  We had command chains,  warlords were on headset with each other and with captains only, captains that ran the smaller 12 person ops were on headset with their teams as well as theie designated warlords.  If your team isn't organized it will be wiped.  I can see if your playing it like you described  why you wouldn;t like it, but if you are in an organized group  that actually know what they are doing, it is an entirely different  expierance.

You can't see that many toons on screen anyway.

When it gets up to 50 vs 50 .. adding more makes no real improvement. In a WOW WG battle, it is often 40-60 vs 40-60 ... the WHOLE SCREEN is full of people .. adding another 200 won't make a difference.

Sure there is a difference between 5 vs 5 and 50 vs 50 .. but diminishing returns set in real fast.

I'm really not a huge fan of zerg vs zerg pvp.  I don't mind it, and it could be fun once in a while, but there is much less skill involved.  Now, I'm not saying I'm incredibly skilled at PvP, but I like knowing that I tried my best to win.  In zerg vs zerg I never feel a sense of accomplishment.  I like random fights between  2 parties or raids much more than zerg vs zerg. 

I thought I would love the huge battles when I first heard of WAR.  I did like it a lot for a short period, but it got boring quickly.  If you're winning you had the bigger zerg, if you lost your zerg didn't have enough.  Rarely did any sort of skill come in to play. 

True, most large scale pvp demoralizes into zerg vs zerg.  However, I have been a part of some pretty large groups that made zerg killing a lot of fun.  The important issue here is how command handles squad combat.  In a zerg community, one person calls the targets and everyone jumps him.  In a military style community, each squad leader calls a target and his group focus fires on that target.  Military beats zerg.  Why?  Because in the same time it took the zerg to kill one person, the military style unit has killed 4.  The only problem lies in overwhelming numbers.  General tactics calls for a 3 to 1 numerical superiority in order to assault and invade an enemy strong point.  Combat effectiveness of each squad starts to deteriorate as losses occur.  If the zerg has sufficient numbers to soak up the win/loss factor, they win.

50 vs 50 in a wow arena is fun not in a place like wintergrasp

Originally posted by Aramath

True, most large scale pvp demoralizes into zerg vs zerg.  However, I have been a part of some pretty large groups that made zerg killing a lot of fun.  The important issue here is how command handles squad combat.  In a zerg community, one person calls the targets and everyone jumps him.  In a military style community, each squad leader calls a target and his group focus fires on that target.  Military beats zerg.  Why?  Because in the same time it took the zerg to kill one person, the military style unit has killed 4.  The only problem lies in overwhelming numbers.  General tactics calls for a 3 to 1 numerical superiority in order to assault and invade an enemy strong point.  Combat effectiveness of each squad starts to deteriorate as losses occur.  If the zerg has sufficient numbers to soak up the win/loss factor, they win.

I agree the military style gameplay  is a completely different expierance.  It has everything to do with the leadership. planning and strategy. If you take a group of people that have never played together and throw them together randomnly .. it would be quite a mess, but  massive guilds started by groups such as  Guilds on large university campuses  where they actually know hundreds of members , practice together,  and toss around strategies are much more effective and organized.

The chain of command is important to keeping even a large guild tight, and can be done effectively regardless of the sheer numbers of members.  Our smaller teams  within the guild all had their own roles to play in the overall battle and had their own objectives. Being able to have many different objectives accomplished simultaneously allowed us to make ground much faster and take complete control over the battlefield from the start. Being able to accomplish that from the go gives you an advantage over sheer numbers every time. Now of course it is when the other guild you are fighting is just as organized it becomes a real challenge, and that is what I really enjoy about massive battles.

In EvE its quite normall nowadays to ahve 1000+ Vs 1000+ battles with virtually no lag. Of course you have to inform the GM's a big battle is taking place so they can move server resources to you but it can be done and its fun. When its a non announced fight tho the battles are typically 200 Vs 200 between 2 or more corperations.

 problem with massive battles in todays MMOs is that battles are mindless, like the OP mentioned it doesnt matter what skill you use and where you go, there is yet to be produced a game where large scale battles can exist in their pure form, and that is where battlefield strategies and movements matter, where formations give the advantage, positioning ranged, infantry and mounted units at the right place and striking at the right time matters, no MMO as of today can provide these mechanics, and the few that can actually support it certain skills and gimmicks simply destroy this type of gameplay such as knockbacks and aoe spells.

When we can have a low fantasy MMO that can provide these type of battles then I really want to play with these high numbers, atm tho having 10 v 10 or 300 v 300 the only difference is the game performance everything else is the same, people running around just randomly using skills on anything they can target.

Large scale 300v300 battles are just excuses for ranged type character to pwn anyone who comes in the gap between the 2 zergs, it happened in DAoC, and it's fun if you were a bolt caster or a archer type. 400+ mids at alb APK 24/7 on merlin server, and ~200-300 albs trying to get out, anyone who goes in the gap between the 2 zergs = dead.

how can you not like them?

you watch braveheart and for the most partt you cannot wait to see the huge battles, or in troy, or any movie/tv show with large battles doesn't matter what grenre the show is

they are exciting and feel epic (when it works and is not laggy)

ahh, the zerg vs zerg war... always a thrill.

Lag... sometimes, but not really.

A real battle is always thrilling, win or loose, if your guild actually knows how to manuver as a whole. Flank left, get those catapults up, mind the wizards/archers on the walls, move your stealth team in from the south and take them off the walls... ect ect... its like living a war out of the history books, or one for the history books...

Cause in major chaos there thrives small well coordinated groups.

Originally posted by Airphel

ahh, the zerg vs zerg war... always a thrill.

 

Lag... sometimes, but not really.

 

A real battle is always thrilling, win or loose, if your guild actually knows how to manuver as a whole. Flank left, get those catapults up, mind the wizards/archers on the walls, move your stealth team in from the south and take them off the walls... ect ect... its like living a war out of the history books, or one for the history books...

You mean shadowbane had large scale battles that wern't completely rained out by hackers randomly spawning 100's of mobs on them?