No, I'm not going to make comparisons to real life. I don't have to.

For something to be "hardcore" it has to go above and beyond what is considered the standard within a particular human activity. Hardcore martial artists will try to perform greater feats of strength and skill than their peers. Hardcore motor heads will try to build cars that are ridiculously overpowered, even in the realm of street racing. Hardcore motocross trials riders will constantly attempt to perform more outrageous and seemingly impossible stunts. And so on and so forth.

In the realm of videogames, "hardcore" is used to mean any game, or game related activity, that is unreasonably difficult or frustrating to the average gamer. Bullet hell shooters like Perfect Cherry Blossom or rRootage, as well as retro platform games like Mighty Jill Off and I Wanna Be The Guy could all be considered hardcore. In fact, these games all fall into a new catagory of games that are collectively refered to as masocore. RPGs are not, in general, "hardcore." There are exceptions however, in the subgenre known as roguelikes.

Roguelikes are something of a contradiction. On the one hand they have steep learning curves and death is permanent. That's permanent as in: you have to role an entirely new character and start all over. What's more, much of any good roguelike design is randomly generated making it impossible to know what to expect from one session to the next, let alone make a walkthrough. On the other hand, most roguelikes move at the players pace (they're mostly turn based), can be played in very short sessions, and can be completed in eight hours or less (provided you don't die and have to start over). In modern terms, these games would be considered casual if it wasn't for the learning curve and harsh death penalty.

My personal definition of a "hardcore" game is one that is difficult and requires player skill. You cannot simply grind your way through a "hardcore" game. A hardcore game demands something of the player besides time. In fact, a harcore game takes less time for a skillful or dedicated player than it does for an inept or lazy gamer. The emphasis is less on time and more on challenging the player. For an RPG, this means challenging a player's tactical and logistical abilities. Forcing the player to plan ahead but still think on his / her feet when something comes up that wasn't anticipated. Right now, no MMORPG fits that bill.

So can we please stop babbling on about how such and such MMORPG is not hardcore enough or too harcore? You can grind through every one of these games and that disqualifies them from the hardcore club.

i disagree.  In my personal opinion games are either hardcore, casual or moderate.  All 3 can have varied levels of skill and the hardcore one doesn't always mean more skill.  I would say time is the biggest factor to making a game hardcore as we have precious little of it (as opposed to skill) and it can be quite daunting to try and complete hardcore games due to the huge time commitments most have.

So yeah, you raise some good points but i don't think it should be based soley on Skill.

 I would have to say hardcore just means time sink in MMORPGs.... you can tell when playing an MMO which players have all the time in the world and which ones don't.

People complain about things not being hard enough or 'taking skill' but that is just a load of bs...

If you have two sets of mobs, one set being easy, and the other set pulling off extremely annoying spells or whatever making them more difficult to kill. Those difficult mobs will never be fought, everyone will flock to the easy mobs and avoid the others all together. I've seen this in many MMOs over the years... so people really don't want a challenge but they do like the sound of the word challenge. It makes them feel better than other people, or like they are in some special group of good players, or 'leet' or whatever you would like to call it.

I think I'd have to disagree with you as well.

You say you won't make RL comparisons and then do just that, so lets touch on that briefly. In all those instances, the person is putting more time and effort into their chosen field than the average person in that field does. I would argue that MMOs by their nature are "hardcore" compared to the average gamer, who may only play halo 3 and madden on the weekends where we play probably far more than them. (But this isn't about them so lets skip past that)

I would say that within any MMO there are certain "hardcore" people and average people. If you spend more than 20-30 hours a week playing your game, I would say you're a candidate for being "hardcore". Above that though, you have raiding guilds. Some spend upwards of 5 hours a night every night throughout the week doing their raiding. In many games, raiding isn't just about putting the time in either. You need to have people who know the fight mechanics as well as their class mechanics, and can work together in a team. You would be surprised how many average MMO players don't have the skills to avoid moving walls of lava or know not to stand in flashing circles that will kill you.

There is always endgame content or "hard modes" or new content that only a small percentage of the population will be able to complete within a game. That, if anything, is hardcore simply for the fact that they have the skill to do it when so few other people can. Often without knowing exactly what they're up against either.

I do agree with the spirit of your final message though. Far too many complain about this or that game being not "hardcore" enough when basically they are just saying "I'm so great, I'm better than that game and I need something harder which you probably couldn't do".

Well it's your definition, and I partially agree with it. You start doing a dungeon and it's very challenging. Then after a month with  better gear / level / skill (not player skill) it becomes trivial, no sense of accomplishing much really. But there is also some player skill improvement mixed in, and sometimes it can mean a lot so still think an MMO *can* be harcore.

In my experience, in MMO's 'hardcore' usually referrs to people acting like assholes.

"For something to be "hardcore" it has to go above and beyond what is considered the standard within a particular human activity."

I agree with the definition but disagree that only player skill fits within the definition. Anything extreme can be hardcore imo.

I think "A Tale in the Desert" and "Wurm Online" are "hardcore" crafting games, for example.

It's relative to the activity. I'd certainy describe a 15 hour Shadowbane siege as hardcore for a MMO. Hell even WoW could be hardcore back in the day. 8 Hours in a single  dungeon instance is certainly more  hardcore than I ever want to be.

Hardcore can be many ways of playing, but if you dedicate yourself to a game and play alot every day and know all ins and outs of that game its seems your hardcore, well thats how i see it.

It dont matter what kind of game it is as long your dedication to that game is extreme, in my book your hardcore,  sandbox or themepark you can be both hardcore.

Oh and hardcore your not when you macro/exploit visit sites for walkthroughs DBsites thats for casuals/carebears people who can't firgure it out for themselfs.

And many claim to be hardcore but macro/exploit and visit those sites lol what a joke they are:P

This topic is much better than I thought it was going to be. Good all the way around. The "people acting like assholes" reply made me laugh, and is a good point as well for the overall topic.

I don't think I can really disagree with anyone here. It's all subjective in a way, for this genre.

I think its just a fact of life that adolescents love to pigeon-hole and compartmentalise (look at the first post straight after the OP for a classic example).  Words and concepts like "hardcore" are pretty meaningless but if the kids do want to debate about meanings of meaningless words then there is no real harm I suppose.

Hardcore is a word nerds use to put down other nerds gaming preferences, nothing more.

Hardcore is a playstyle a person can have. So any game regardless what genre can be played hardcore.

For example to me I felt I was playing WOW hardcore, reason I challenged myself, didn't go to get purple's to have better gear but went into raids/dungeons/quests, with self crafting cloth armor as to me using and type of other armor made the game far to easy., but understand those who might go after the high end gear can also have a hardcore playstyle so please understand I am not saying that one lpaystyle is more hardcore then mine or the other way around but understand that what I am saying is what hardcore means to me and what I do to make it feel hardcore. Could I compete with those who whore high end gear..... of course I could not, but the game was so much more challenging for me and since I was and am not a pvp player in MMORPG's (like my pvp in other genre of games) I saw no real reason to have high end gear. But still hold ground when going into battlegrounds. That way I could use far more tactics then to just rely on what I was wearing or carrying. And still not saying my way is the hardcore way , just this is how I feel hardcore is for ME. But also notice a trend in seeing that inpatient people will often label a game hardcore as for some reason people put a time frame on what to achieve in a game and if they are not able to do something asap and it might take some time it is often labeled as hardcore, where I still will say hardcore is a playstyle.

I also do not know any Hardcore games as all games can be played casual......atleast I feel I can do so due to how I can change my playstyle to fit a challenge.

I think MMORPGs are hardcore in the sort of time investment that they require.  I play most SP games in a week or two.  Maybe a month, if it's so great that I play through it more than once.  Putting the same amount of time into an MMO, I barely make it through a fraction of the content, before becoming bored out of my mind.  Due to the repetition of simplistic gameplay elements that have lost all semblance of fun, most MMO's require something akin to hardcore autism or OCD.

I think this clip sums up my feelings on hardcore.

(Replace the word extreme with hardcore)

Hardcore

Definition of hardcore player in MMO = he that has no life

"hardcore game" or "hardcore players"? because those are two way different things. You can have a hardcore player in a care bear game.

Only mmo that can qualify for being hardcore is those with permadeath. Allthough you hardly see them nowadays unless you go to some obscure indiedeveloper noone heard of, solo-developing his dream mmo, total amout of players 50, tops

If all it take to reach endgame is time then that game aint hardcore at all. If even a blind retard can complete it given enough time, what's so hardcore about it? Nah, mmo's aint hardcore today. None of them are.

Extreme hardcore gaming is like those bullethell games you linked. I personally love them to bits. Found two really good flash shmups following the bullethell formula. Not that hard though, either of them. Frantic 1 and the sequel. Second harder than the first but none of them too hard.

Originally posted by jimsmith08

Hardcore is a word nerds use to put down other nerds gaming preferences, nothing more.

Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

No, I'm not going to make comparisons to real life. I don't have to.

For something to be "hardcore" it has to go above and beyond what is considered the standard within a particular human activity. Hardcore martial artists will try to perform greater feats of strength and skill than their peers. Hardcore motor heads will try to build cars that are ridiculously overpowered, even in the realm of street racing. Hardcore motocross trials riders will constantly attempt to perform more outrageous and seemingly impossible stunts. And so on and so forth.

In the realm of videogames, "hardcore" is used to mean any game, or game related activity, that is unreasonably difficult or frustrating to the average gamer. Bullet hell shooters like Perfect Cherry Blossom or rRootage, as well as retro platform games like Mighty Jill Off and I Wanna Be The Guy could all be considered hardcore. In fact, these games all fall into a new catagory of games that are collectively refered to as masocore. RPGs are not, in general, "hardcore." There are exceptions however, in the subgenre known as roguelikes.

Roguelikes are something of a contradiction. On the one hand they have steep learning curves and death is permanent. That's permanent as in: you have to role an entirely new character and start all over. What's more, much of any good roguelike design is randomly generated making it impossible to know what to expect from one session to the next, let alone make a walkthrough. On the other hand, most roguelikes move at the players pace (they're mostly turn based), can be played in very short sessions, and can be completed in eight hours or less (provided you don't die and have to start over). In modern terms, these games would be considered casual if it wasn't for the learning curve and harsh death penalty.

My personal definition of a "hardcore" game is one that is difficult and requires player skill. You cannot simply grind your way through a "hardcore" game. A hardcore game demands something of the player besides time. In fact, a harcore game takes less time for a skillful or dedicated player than it does for an inept or lazy gamer. The emphasis is less on time and more on challenging the player. For an RPG, this means challenging a player's tactical and logistical abilities. Forcing the player to plan ahead but still think on his / her feet when something comes up that wasn't anticipated. Right now, no MMORPG fits that bill.

So can we please stop babbling on about how such and such MMORPG is not hardcore enough or too harcore? You can grind through every one of these games and that disqualifies them from the hardcore club.

{ Mod Edit } You are not the person who gets to decide what is hardcore. 

Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

For something to be "hardcore" it has to go above and beyond what is considered the standard within a particular human activity.

 In the realm of videogames, "hardcore" is used to mean any game, or game related activity, that is unreasonably difficult or frustrating to the average gamer. Bullet hell shooters like Perfect Cherry Blossom or rRootage, as well as retro platform games like Mighty Jill Off and I Wanna Be The Guy could all be considered hardcore. RPGs are not, in general, "hardcore."

My personal definition of a "hardcore" game is one that is difficult and requires player skill. You cannot simply grind your way through a "hardcore" game. A hardcore game demands something of the player besides time. In fact, a harcore game takes less time for a skillful or dedicated player than it does for an inept or lazy gamer. The emphasis is less on time and more on challenging the player. For an RPG, this means challenging a player's tactical and logistical abilities. Forcing the player to plan ahead but still think on his / her feet when something comes up that wasn't anticipated. Right now, no MMORPG fits that bill.

So can we please stop babbling on about how such and such MMORPG is not hardcore enough or too harcore? You can grind through every one of these games and that disqualifies them from the hardcore club.

To start this, no, although I love grouping, I don't raid, and no, I don't consider myself a 'hardcore' MMORPG player. Nothing you have said here has personally offended me, but I do find myself questioning a lot of what you written.

Jimmy, the combative tone of your post aside, are you suggesting that playing MMORPGs at the top level has never had nothing to do with learnt skills or knowledge? That anyone could log on and successfully lead a raid? or even know their role in the main group without being coached every step of the way? That these games have always been easy? Or are you just saying that games now are?

You say that RPGs are not 'in general' hardcore in one sentence, and then you go on to seemingly dismiss all MMORPGs as unable to be 'hardcore' by their very nature... Thats confusing.

To me,  'In general' would suggest that indeed some of these games are infact able to be 'hardcore', and so is your point actually about certain games, or is it about MMORPGs as a genre?
 

If these games have never been challenging, which seems what you might  be saying underneath it all, then why is the newbie, and indeed 'n00b', so hated and feared? The fact they are would suggest that there is a skill differentation between different players of different experience and ability yes? This in turn would suggest that there is indeed skills and knowledge to be learned as we play surely? That some are better at these games then others?

Or is the n00b insult  just a hangover from when DPs made knowing your group role and the environment you were in essential? Are you just saying that games now don't ask this of us and thats the problem? Thats what stops some players from being able to claim being 'hardcore'?

If you are, then I agree. Challange needs to make a return in these games for sure, but this OP by you seems confused and muddy. It reads like you have the right notion at the core of what you want to say, but are just having trouble expressing it clearly.

Originally posted by jimsmith08

Hardcore is a word nerds use to put down other nerds gaming preferences, nothing more.

Yeah, and so are "carebear" and "casual" and some others.  Or at least they can be used that way.  There is nothing wrong with this terminology to give a general sense of what a person is talking about but I usually try to avoid using any of it as insults or ego boosters.

I may decry the lack of risk and so forth in popular games today but I don't think I've ever described myself as hardcore because I feel that way and I don't think I've ever used "casual" or "carebear" as an insult to someone else.  The reason for this is because although I may argue heatedly about this stuff I do realize how silly it is to try to imply that there is any inherent right or wrong involved in gaming preferences.

I have, on occassion, used some of these terms as self-mocking insults.

Originally posted by FreddyNoNose

Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

No, I'm not going to make comparisons to real life. I don't have to.

For something to be "hardcore" it has to go above and beyond what is considered the standard within a particular human activity. Hardcore martial artists will try to perform greater feats of strength and skill than their peers. Hardcore motor heads will try to build cars that are ridiculously overpowered, even in the realm of street racing. Hardcore motocross trials riders will constantly attempt to perform more outrageous and seemingly impossible stunts. And so on and so forth.

In the realm of videogames, "hardcore" is used to mean any game, or game related activity, that is unreasonably difficult or frustrating to the average gamer. Bullet hell shooters like Perfect Cherry Blossom or rRootage, as well as retro platform games like Mighty Jill Off and I Wanna Be The Guy could all be considered hardcore. In fact, these games all fall into a new catagory of games that are collectively refered to as masocore. RPGs are not, in general, "hardcore." There are exceptions however, in the subgenre known as roguelikes.

Roguelikes are something of a contradiction. On the one hand they have steep learning curves and death is permanent. That's permanent as in: you have to role an entirely new character and start all over. What's more, much of any good roguelike design is randomly generated making it impossible to know what to expect from one session to the next, let alone make a walkthrough. On the other hand, most roguelikes move at the players pace (they're mostly turn based), can be played in very short sessions, and can be completed in eight hours or less (provided you don't die and have to start over). In modern terms, these games would be considered casual if it wasn't for the learning curve and harsh death penalty.

My personal definition of a "hardcore" game is one that is difficult and requires player skill. You cannot simply grind your way through a "hardcore" game. A hardcore game demands something of the player besides time. In fact, a harcore game takes less time for a skillful or dedicated player than it does for an inept or lazy gamer. The emphasis is less on time and more on challenging the player. For an RPG, this means challenging a player's tactical and logistical abilities. Forcing the player to plan ahead but still think on his / her feet when something comes up that wasn't anticipated. Right now, no MMORPG fits that bill.

So can we please stop babbling on about how such and such MMORPG is not hardcore enough or too harcore? You can grind through every one of these games and that disqualifies them from the hardcore club.

 

{ Mod Edit }  You are not the person who gets to decide what is hardcore. 

I highlighted the part you missed. Thanks for playing.

Originally posted by vesavius

Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

 

To start this, no, although I love grouping, I don't raid, and no, I don't consider myself a 'hardcore' MMORPG player. Nothing you have said here has personally offended me, but I do find myself questioning a lot of what you written.

Jimmy, the combative tone of your post aside, are you suggesting that playing MMORPGs at the top level has never had nothing to do with learnt skills or knowledge? That anyone could log on and successfully lead a raid? or even know their role in the main group without being coached every step of the way?

Every game requires a certain level of learning. No one is going to pick up the original Mega Man, for instance, and blast through all eight levels with one life on their first go... Unless they're the mortal incarnation of an obscure platforming god or some freakish genetic cross between a human and a fly....

The bottom line is that the time needed to get better will be different for everyone. MMORPGs create artificial barriers of stats rather than skill. MMORPGs notoriously remove elements that promote skillful play and replace them with mechanics that reward time. Some people learn fast while others learn slow, but MMORPGs ration out the options at a predetermined rate so that everyone arives at the endgame after a certain amount of money has been milked from the player. I understand why they do this, but it isn't hardcore to require a player to sit for months in front of the computer repeating actions that they had the hang of after the first ten minutes.

That these games have always been easy? Or are you just saying that games now are?

I would say that Ultima Online was difficult as hell. The problem was that you could still get over the difficulty curve by grinding. Anyone that played UO remembers making millions of skull caps / iron ingots / arrows and selling them just to get the training and equipment needed in order to not be killed by a rabbit. A FUCKING RABBIT!!

Games like UO, Asheron's Call and Eve Online all have hardcore elements, but they provide mechanics that let you opt out of the difficulty curve by grinding. Spaming your mining skill or one hitting low level mobs is not difficult and thus not hardcore. Then again, a person can be a hardcore catass. That isn't the same as a hardcore gamer though.

You say that RPGs are not 'in general' hardcore in one sentence, and then you go on to seemingly dismiss all MMORPGs as unable to be 'hardcore' by their very nature... Thats confusing.

I think it would be a little dishonest to treat MMORPGs the same as plain old RPGs. While the core concepts are the same between the two, the execution is very different. The most promenent difference is the use of pseudo real-time combat in MMORPGs. I say pseudo becuase actions are based on time increments and occasional simultanious actions. The result plays out like turn based combat, but automates the process so that combat becomes a largely hands off experience for the player. This approach is unfortunate since it reduces the tactical element to simply watching the HP and MP bars deteriorate and then spaming a skill / item to bring those stats back up to an acceptable level. Much of the tactical considerations of a traditional RPG are lost in this transition.

And yes, many single player RPGs are moving toward real-time combat, but you'll notice that they are also borrowing heavily from old school beat em up games for their combo systems and leaving most of the player's party under AI control. MMORPGs are stuck in a limbo that leans to close to turn based combat and reduces tactics to rote hotkey sequences.

Next up is the way that death is treated. While I'll admit that the early MMOs were very harsh in comparison to modern MMOs, they still had mechanics that let you bypass that difficulty to some degree. Namely, they had warehousing systems. If you were patient enough, you could stockpile replacement gear for the event of your character's death. You could literally grind the death penalty into triviality. Again, there's nothing hardcore about grinding low level mobs or crafting skills. Rather than reward the player that stayed alive, we reduce the penalty of death to nothing.

To me,  'In general' would suggest that indeed some of these games are infact able to be 'hardcore', and so is your point actually about certain games, or is it about MMORPGs as a genre?

All games have the potential of being hardcore. MMORPGs are not harcore due to design issues that have, unfortunately, become cannon to what is considered "good" MMORPG design. No genre, in games or otherwise, can evolve unless someone challenges and violates the assumptions that are linked to that genre.
 

If these games have never been challenging, which seems what you might  be saying underneath it all, then why is the newbie, and indeed 'n00b', so hated and feared?

Feared? I don't think I've ever heard anyone express fear of "t3h n00bz." The term "newbie" is just a way for one gamer to slight another. The unwritten rule of video games is that you are always a n00b. It doesn't matter if you've played the same game for over ten years. Someone, somewhere will call you a n00b.

The fact they are would suggest that there is a skill differentation between different players of different experience and ability yes?

Nope. With MMORPGs the only difference is time invested. Player skill doesn't even factor. You are your stats, you are your gear. If this wasn't the case, then a level 3 could pwn a level 20. This simply doesn't happen.

This in turn would suggest that there is indeed skills and knowledge to be learned as we play surely? That some are better at these games then others?

Yes, some know the game better than others, but it doesn't matter. Again, you are your stats, you are your gear. Time trumps skill in MMORPGs.

Or is the n00b insult  just a hangover from when DPs made knowing your group role and the environment you were in essential?

When was this again?...

Are you just saying that games now don't ask this of us and thats the problem?

I'm saying that there needs to be a fundamental shift in the design of MMORPGs before anyone can claim to be harcore in an MMORPG.

Thats what stops some players from being able to claim being 'hardcore'?

The fact that they're playing an MMORPG.

If you are, then I agree. Challange needs to make a return in these games for sure, but this OP by you seems confused and muddy. It reads like you have the right notion at the core of what you want to say, but are just having trouble expressing it clearly.