Originally posted by Dafong

Originally posted by Torik

I think you might need to clarify these statements a bit since they seem to go against what you were arguing for in the rest of this thread.

Using your criteria, if a Naxx raid takes about 4 hours spread out over a week then a solo player who plays for that same amount of time (or more) over a week should get the equivalent to what a single raider can expect to get as loot from a single Naxx clear?

 

 You can do PuG Naxx raids spread out over 4 hours of a week and get the rewards from Naxx already.

 

I don't have any issue with people doing that.  The truth is though, that it is RARE that a single PuG raid group is only going to spend 4 hours in Naxx.  The truth is that while a GUILD can do this, PuGs generally take much much longer.  Which is the complaint that most of the people have here, they can't spend that time, but they want the same rewards.

The truth is that the time requirement is difficult for them to commit to, but they want the same rewards, which is silly, they admit there is difficulty here, but deny that anyone should earn for matching that level of difficulty.

A Naxx PuG that does not wipe should be able to complete the raid in about 5-6 hours.  If you need to split it over two days then 3 hours per day should do it.  A person who does not like Naxx could easily spend two 3 hour sessions doing single or 5man content.  So if your only metric for 'effort' and 'challenge' is the time spent continuously then he should be getting the same rewards as the Naxx raiders.

Originally posted by Torik

 A Naxx PuG that does not wipe should be able to complete the raid in about 5-6 hours.  If you need to split it over two days then 3 hours per day should do it.  A person who does not like Naxx could easily spend two 3 hour sessions doing single or 5man content.  So if your only metric for 'effort' and 'challenge' is the time spent continuously then he should be getting the same rewards as the Naxx raiders.

Thing is this, I am happy for people to commit 3 hours to go towards earning the same rewards, however, if you were too look at it as MAN HOURS, rather then just hours, then it isn't 3 hours.

What it is, is 3 hours by 25 people.  Which is 75 man hours.  This is how you are billed, when you get your car repaired, you are not billed by the hour, you are billed by worker by the hour.  For an example, this is how you are billed for 70 man hours, even though you only took your car in yesterday and there are only 24 hours in a day.

Also bear in mind that over the course of a Naxx raid there is only 2 items per person dropped AND you have a random chance that no item you want will drop AND you have a random chance that the item you do want will be won by someone else.

So bear in mind that a person doing solo content will not ONLY have to do 3 hours per session, to a total of about 15 hours they will ALSO face the chance that they get an item they cannot use or sell OR get repeat items that are of no use to them OR get items that are not as good as what they already have.

This to me would equal out the time spent vs the items rewarded to mean that solo and group players could earn what raiders earn.

Originally posted by Jairoe03

No, the complaint is that Raiding is the only thing defining what end-game content is.

That is not in argument and I can't understand why you ramble on and on so much.

I, and others, have already conceeded that if you work as hard, in real terms, then you should earn the same rewards.

The TRUTH is that most of the people making this argument don't really want to work as hard at all, they actually want to work FAR less and still get the same items.

Originally posted by Dafong

Originally posted by Torik

 A Naxx PuG that does not wipe should be able to complete the raid in about 5-6 hours.  If you need to split it over two days then 3 hours per day should do it.  A person who does not like Naxx could easily spend two 3 hour sessions doing single or 5man content.  So if your only metric for 'effort' and 'challenge' is the time spent continuously then he should be getting the same rewards as the Naxx raiders.

 

Thing is this, I am happy for people to commit 3 hours to go towards earning the same rewards, however, if you were too look at it as MAN HOURS, rather then just hours, then it isn't 3 hours.

What it is, is 3 hours by 25 people.  Which is 75 man hours.  This is how you are billed, when you get your car repaired, you are not billed by the hour, you are billed by worker by the hour.  For an example, this is how you are billed for 70 man hours, even though you only took your car in yesterday and there are only 24 hours in a day.

 

Also bear in mind that over the course of a Naxx raid there is only 2 items per person dropped AND you have a random chance that no item you want will drop AND you have a random chance that the item you do want will be won by someone else.

 

So bear in mind that a person doing solo content will not ONLY have to do 3 hours per session, to a total of about 15 hours they will ALSO face the chance that they get an item they cannot use or sell OR get repeat items that are of no use to them OR get items that are not as good as what they already have.

 

This to me would equal out the time spent vs the items rewarded to mean that solo and group players could earn what raiders earn.

I think your math is a bit off.

6 hours for a full clear of 25man Naxx = 150 man hours. 

Naxx has 15 bosses and each boss drops 2 items = 30 epics per clear.

150 man hours / 30 epics = 5 man hours / epic.

So a solo player should get one Naxx25 quality epic per 5hours and a 5man group should get an epic per 1 hour. 

Now we get into the problem of what the epic should be.  With 30+ epics per run there is a pretty good chance that a raider will get a chance at 2-4 items per run.  So the solo player should get an epic chosen at random that matches that probability whatever statistics say it is. 

Originally posted by Torik

 

I think your math is a bit off.

6 hours for a full clear of 25man Naxx = 150 man hours. 

Naxx has 15 bosses and each boss drops 2 items = 30 epics per clear.

150 man hours / 30 epics = 5 man hours / epic.

So a solo player should get one Naxx25 quality epic per 5hours and a 5man group should get an epic per 1 hour. 

Now we get into the problem of what the epic should be.  With 30+ epics per run there is a pretty good chance that a raider will get a chance at 2-4 items per run.  So the solo player should get an epic chosen at random that matches that probability whatever statistics say it is. 

 

I
 

Yeah it wasn't meant to be accurate, which is why it shifted from 25 to 15, it was meant to make the point that it isn't a straight correalation.

Your math looks ok, but it should be 2.5 hours per epic, not 5.  I am happy that a solo player puts in 2.5 consecutive hours of play for a 25% chance of a raid reward.  With a scaling level included.  So that once you done it once, for 2.5 hours, it then becomes 3 hours, then 3.5 hours, then 4 hours and so on, with the requirement being still only 2.5 hours of consecutive play.  So that it becomes 2.5 hours + 1 hour consecutive to 2 hours consecutive and so on.

This would reflect the fact that the more a person raids the same place, the less chance there is that items will drop that they want.

Originally posted by Dafong

 

That is not in argument and I can't understand why you ramble on and on so much.

 

I, and others, have already conceeded that if you work as hard, in real terms, then you should earn the same rewards.

The TRUTH is that most of the people making this argument don't really want to work as hard at all, they actually want to work FAR less and still get the same items.

That isn't true for all. I "ramble" because the whole debate has been about raiding and end-game as per thread topic. Your posts are up for criticism every time and you state these so called "facts" when they are merely "opinions" based on your experiences and perceptions. I'm just pointing out that your view of this "complaint" is off, its not necessarily fact, its your own opinion of what you think most people want. In my opinion, I think its for more variety and not the same rewards and hence there is the argument. Just because you dismiss the argument doesn't necessarily mean its over, it just appears your lost for words or more focused on your horrible example comparing how rewards should be in an MMO to how mechanics get paid in a Car Repair shop. Even putting those two together in the same sentence just looks ridiculous, players aren't putting themselves to work playing an MMORPG, they are trying to find a way to pass time and enjoy themselves.

Originally posted by Dafong

I
 

Yeah it wasn't meant to be accurate, which is why it shifted from 25 to 15, it was meant to make the point that it isn't a straight correalation.

 

Your math looks ok, but it should be 2.5 hours per epic, not 5.  I am happy that a solo player puts in 2.5 consecutive hours of play for a 25% chance of a raid reward.  With a scaling level included.  So that once you done it once, for 2.5 hours, it then becomes 3 hours, then 3.5 hours, then 4 hours and so on, with the requirement being still only 2.5 hours of consecutive play.  So that it becomes 2.5 hours + 1 hour consecutive to 2 hours consecutive and so on.

This would reflect the fact that the more a person raids the same place, the less chance there is that items will drop that they want.

I would hazard to add that I think other factors should be included....such as the fact that guild raiders raid places when there is a 0% chance of a drop for THEM and they are raiding those places/bosses for the benefit of their guild.

So I would like to break down the 25%  in reducing amounts, so that the first time you do it, its 25% but then after that, it takes you an extra 30 mins and the chance is reduced to 20%, then after that another 30 mins and a 15% chance etc down to a 5% chance to win a raid level item.

This would reflect the work that raiders put in far more realistically then any automatic reward for work system.

Originally posted by Jairoe03

 

That isn't true for all. I "ramble" because the whole debate has been about raiding and end-game as per thread topic. Your posts are up for criticism every time and you state these so called "facts" when they are merely "opinions" based on your experiences and perceptions. I'm just pointing out that your view of this "complaint" is off, its not necessarily fact, its your own opinion of what you think most people want. In my opinion, I think its for more variety and not the same rewards and hence there is the argument. Just because you dismiss the argument doesn't necessarily mean its over, it just appears your lost for words or more focused on your horrible example comparing how rewards should be in an MMO to how mechanics get paid in a Car Repair shop. Even putting those two together in the same sentence just looks ridiculous, players aren't putting themselves to work playing an MMORPG, they are trying to find a way to pass time and enjoy themselves.

yes but your one line said that, the rest of hte post was you rambling.

It is not ridiculous to make the comparison, you are billed that way by a car workshop because that is how long it would take YOU to do it alone.

Why shouldn't the same idea be used in MMORPGs, that is how long it should take oyu to do it alone.

But as I said....this is the truth, you don't want to put in the same work, you just want the same rewards and this excuse of saying I want them in solo or group content is merely that, an excuse.

Originally posted by Dafong

Originally posted by Jairoe03

 

That isn't true for all. I "ramble" because the whole debate has been about raiding and end-game as per thread topic. Your posts are up for criticism every time and you state these so called "facts" when they are merely "opinions" based on your experiences and perceptions. I'm just pointing out that your view of this "complaint" is off, its not necessarily fact, its your own opinion of what you think most people want. In my opinion, I think its for more variety and not the same rewards and hence there is the argument. Just because you dismiss the argument doesn't necessarily mean its over, it just appears your lost for words or more focused on your horrible example comparing how rewards should be in an MMO to how mechanics get paid in a Car Repair shop. Even putting those two together in the same sentence just looks ridiculous, players aren't putting themselves to work playing an MMORPG, they are trying to find a way to pass time and enjoy themselves.

 

yes but your one line said that, the rest of hte post was you rambling.

It is not ridiculous to make the comparison, you are billed that way by a car workshop because that is how long it would take YOU to do it alone.

Why shouldn't the same idea be used in MMORPGs, that is how long it should take oyu to do it alone.

But as I said....this is the truth, you don't want to put in the same work, you just want the same rewards and this excuse of saying I want them in solo or group content is merely that, an excuse.

I think I have advocated for more work for the same (even slightly less reward) obviously, you must have bad memory or maybe haven't even read/comprehended it at all. I don't see how anything in my posts even suggested that and you act like Raiding is the only way to legitimately reward people for something difficult (not time consuming).

Your example is used in such bad context, its amazing how you, yourself cannot even catch it unless you don't reread/proofread your own writing even from time to time. Like I need to be billed for items through gameplay efforts or just find a way to get 10/25 people on the same schedule to get it done. I would hope developers rewards can go beyond something as simple as "billing the players" for their items via collective set of gameplay hours. This is a game, didn't your parents teach you to separate work from play? This is a lazy way of justifying why Raids SHOULD be the End-game rather than consider other options for it. And btw, this example lacks to account for random nature of games, I'm sure you don't have to keep taking your car into the shop and hope they gave you that oil change rather than a tire rotation that they seem to keep giving you. That's where it falls apart. Trying to use a real life comparison in a game context directly is just horrible.

With whatever your MMORPG is that you currently play (and raid) a lot, Can you justify this question....Is there absolutely nothing that the company can do to the game that can be improved upon (especially in terms of PvE)?

Originally posted by Dafong

Originally posted by Dafong

I
 

Yeah it wasn't meant to be accurate, which is why it shifted from 25 to 15, it was meant to make the point that it isn't a straight correalation.

 

Your math looks ok, but it should be 2.5 hours per epic, not 5.  I am happy that a solo player puts in 2.5 consecutive hours of play for a 25% chance of a raid reward.  With a scaling level included.  So that once you done it once, for 2.5 hours, it then becomes 3 hours, then 3.5 hours, then 4 hours and so on, with the requirement being still only 2.5 hours of consecutive play.  So that it becomes 2.5 hours + 1 hour consecutive to 2 hours consecutive and so on.

This would reflect the fact that the more a person raids the same place, the less chance there is that items will drop that they want.

 

I would hazard to add that I think other factors should be included....such as the fact that guild raiders raid places when there is a 0% chance of a drop for THEM and they are raiding those places/bosses for the benefit of their guild.

So I would like to break down the 25%  in reducing amounts, so that the first time you do it, its 25% but then after that, it takes you an extra 30 mins and the chance is reduced to 20%, then after that another 30 mins and a 15% chance etc down to a 5% chance to win a raid level item.

This would reflect the work that raiders put in far more realistically then any automatic reward for work system.

Actually I would make it a 100% chance to get a 'grab bag'  that has a random item from a group of items corresponding to a class/spec.  Statisticly speaking if you are part of a full 25man clear you will win at least one item that your class/spec can use.  On subsequent clears you have the increased change to get an item that is not an upgrade.  So your first 'grab bag' will have an item you can use for sure but subsequent runs will have the chance of getting a duplicate.  I then see no reason why you would have to increase the time requirement. 

Frankly, this is the type of system that non-raiders in WoW has been asking for since vanilla days and I would see most of them being happy with it as long as Blizzard updated the content for it on par with raid content (which is actually the real issue).

Originally posted by Torik

Actually I would make it a 100% chance to get a 'grab bag'  that has a random item from a group of items corresponding to a class/spec.  Statisticly speaking if you are part of a full 25man clear you will win at least one item that your class/spec can use.  On subsequent clears you have the increased change to get an item that is not an upgrade.  So your first 'grab bag' will have an item you can use for sure but subsequent runs will have the chance of getting a duplicate.  I then see no reason why you would have to increase the time requirement. 

Frankly, this is the type of system that non-raiders in WoW has been asking for since vanilla days and I would see most of them being happy with it as long as Blizzard updated the content for it on par with raid content (which is actually the real issue).

 

 

Well no.

For instance, as a Warrior Tank player, nothing but plate drops are of use to you, so if 8 cloth items drop, none of them are of any value.  The only items that are valuable are things like necks, rings, backs and trinkets.  And even then, if you are spec'd to be a tank, a DPS trinket is no value.  Even those items that do drop that are plate and tank specific drops you may be rolling against 1 or 2 other tanks.  This is even worse when you consider DPS classes which are duplicated far more then most classes.

Look at the make-up of a normal 25 man Ulduar raid. 2 tanks, perhaps 3 or even 4 for some encounters (Freya)  Then about 6 or 7 healing classes.  Ok well that accounts for either 8 or 10 of the players.  What about the other 15? All of them are DPS classes.  While they may not share all the same armour or stat drops (Dex, Str, Int, Wis etc) it is far more likely that you will be rolling against other people as a DPS class.

So there is no 100% chance of a drop, even on the first run for raiders.

You must also have a concession that for solo or group content that people can fail otherwise you make solo/group content absolute chance of an item drop vs raiding which is a possible chance of an item drop.

Absolutely NOTHING.

RAIDing to me is absurd.  Waiting around 2 hours for 30 minutes of play and 3 hours of fighting over loot..... just gouge my eyes out with a toothe pick.

Originally posted by Jairoe03

I think I have advocated for more work for the same (even slightly less reward) obviously, you must have bad memory or maybe haven't even read/comprehended it at all. I don't see how anything in my posts even suggested that and you act like Raiding is the only way to legitimately reward people for something difficult (not time consuming).

Your example is used in such bad context, its amazing how you, yourself cannot even catch it unless you don't reread/proofread your own writing even from time to time. Like I need to be billed for items through gameplay efforts or just find a way to get 10/25 people on the same schedule to get it done. I would hope developers rewards can go beyond something as simple as "billing the players" for their items via collective set of gameplay hours. This is a game, didn't your parents teach you to separate work from play? This is a lazy way of justifying why Raids SHOULD be the End-game rather than consider other options for it. And btw, this example lacks to account for random nature of games, I'm sure you don't have to keep taking your car into the shop and hope they gave you that oil change rather than a tire rotation that they seem to keep giving you. That's where it falls apart. Trying to use a real life comparison in a game context directly is just horrible.

With whatever your MMORPG is that you currently play (and raid) a lot, Can you justify this question....Is there absolutely nothing that the company can do to the game that can be improved upon (especially in terms of PvE)?

Oh so we can talk about rewards and effort...but don't mix metaphors about game and work or you insult my parents teaching abilities?

What a pathetic set of stringent limits to our debate.

It is work, something you do for hours on end that you might not even enjoy....sounds like work to me?  Yet that is what a LOT of raiding is.

You think there is some joy in clearing the trash to General Vezax? You think there is some fun in fighting the SAME group of mobs over and over again week after week?  No, it's like a job.  You put in the hours and you get the rewards.

You want the rewards, but you don't want to put in the time, and I don't care how often you SAY you are ok with that premise it isn't true when you come back and moan about mixing metaphors involving a JOB and a GAME....the reality is, you don't want to put in the WORK involved but you want the rewards.  You are like a child, you think the world should be given to you on a platter.

Originally posted by NovaKayne

Absolutely NOTHING.

 

RAIDing to me is absurd.  Waiting around 2 hours for 30 minutes of play and 3 hours of fighting over loot..... just gouge my eyes out with a toothe pick.

Neither of those happen in good guilds.

Originally posted by Dafong

Oh so we can talk about rewards and effort...but don't mix metaphors about game and work or you insult my parents teaching abilities?

 

What a pathetic set of stringent limits to our debate.

It is work, something you do for hours on end that you might not even enjoy....sounds like work to me?  Yet that is what a LOT of raiding is.

 

You think there is some joy in clearing the trash to General Vezax? You think there is some fun in fighting the SAME group of mobs over and over again week after week?  No, it's like a job.  You put in the hours and you get the rewards.

You want the rewards, but you don't want to put in the time, and I don't care how often you SAY you are ok with that premise it isn't true when you come back and moan about mixing metaphors involving a JOB and a GAME....the reality is, you don't want to put in the WORK involved but you want the rewards.  You are like a child, you think the world should be given to you on a platter.

Haha, first off, it was no direct insult to your parents, it was sarcasm, learn to distinguish between what I mean literally and just saying things to make you look silly (because some things are silly, the connection between work to game is still baffling in my mind)  ;)

And if you think playing a game should resemble work in anyway then you might want to consider a different pastime. Reading responses like this make me smile because clearly you ran out of arguments, but that pretty much means end of anything else worth responding to. I would of expected more debate from you (and valid points), oh well, I'll live on...

Your assumptions amuse me, and again I stated earlier, I wouldn't mind actually putting forth more effort and more time in a myriad of ways, I just don't want to raid and I'm not the only one that feels like PvE content should be extended beyond and outside of Raid. This further proves your 1 dimensional arguments and the fact that you either don't remember what others type or read it. You still couldn't even respond to the final question I left you with (albeit your not obligated to), but your response appears more broken down than anything and making me seem like I'm just a broken record when I have been merely responding to you. You cannot even accept the fact that there are room for improvements and the Raid isn't the answer to everything PvE. You almost support my cause even further by even questioning how fun the content within the raid actually is, maybe Blizzard needs to bring back fun into their game if an advocate like you doesn't even feel like its fun ;)

If my responses appear child-like, then you definitely should take a good look at yours...you're practically throwing a temper tantrum over someone criticizing your posts, this is what the forums are all about man. I'll reassure you my intentions are good, but competitive and you should be happy that anyone even has given thoughtful consideration to your opinions and given their time to even socialize with you ;)

Finally, if games are like work then -- what the hell are you playing games for anyway if doing those things aren't enjoyable? (the examples used were actually in Raid context as well)

EDIT: when I say I'll put forth the time, I mean in smaller portions obviously, not 1 huge lump like most raids are usually ran, but time is not the issue, its actually having other options that will provide a meaningful result with my character. I never said it had to be on par with raid but something that is above the regular 5-man that have been out for the last year.

Originally posted by Jairoe03

 

Haha, first off, it was no direct insult to your parents, it was sarcasm, learn to distinguish between what I mean literally and just saying things to make you look silly (because some things are silly, the connection between work to game is still baffling in my mind)  ;)

And if you think playing a game should resemble work in anyway then you might want to consider a different pastime. Reading responses like this make me smile because clearly you ran out of arguments, but that pretty much means end of anything else worth responding to. I would of expected more debate from you (and valid points), oh well, I'll live on...

Your assumptions amuse me, and again I stated earlier, I wouldn't mind actually putting forth more effort and more time in a myriad of ways, I just don't want to raid and I'm not the only one that feels like PvE content should be extended beyond and outside of Raid. This further proves your 1 dimensional arguments and the fact that you either don't remember what others type or read it. You still couldn't even respond to the final question I left you with (albeit your not obligated to), but your response appears more broken down than anything and making me seem like I'm just a broken record when I have been merely responding to you. You cannot even accept the fact that there are room for improvements and the Raid isn't the answer to everything PvE. You almost support my cause even further by even questioning how fun the content within the raid actually is, maybe Blizzard needs to bring back fun into their game if an advocate like you doesn't even feel like its fun ;)

If my responses appear child-like, then you definitely should take a good look at yours...you're practically throwing a temper tantrum over someone criticizing your posts, this is what the forums are all about man. I'll reassure you my intentions are good, but competitive and you should be happy that anyone even has given thoughtful consideration to your opinions and given their time to even socialize with you ;)

Finally, if games are like work then -- what the hell are you playing games for anyway if doing those things aren't enjoyable? (the examples used were actually in Raid context as well)

EDIT: when I say I'll put forth the time, I mean in smaller portions obviously, not 1 huge lump like most raids are usually ran, but time is not the issue, its actually having other options that will provide a meaningful result with my character. I never said it had to be on par with raid but something that is above the regular 5-man that have been out for the last year.

I never said that is what a game should be, I said that is what raiding is....perhaps you could spend less time trying to be witty and more time reading the actual posts.

Again you never quite answer the real issue here, despite rambling on and on like a person with alzheimer's.

You claim that you can't give the time in one lump, but refuse to accept that this makes raids difficult and should be a measure by which rewards are given.

Thus proving that I was right when I stated that the truth is you want the same rewards for less effort.  Putting in that time in one lump takes an effort, an effort you don't want to give.  Thus you want the same rewards for less.  You choose to refer to time as if time was the only variable.  When in reality, my argument across 20 pages now has always been that raids are about putting in the time AND the effort.

Originally posted by bonobotheory

... cut...  but I'll quit again as soon as I reach the end.

 

It's a good question OP, and I'm with Bonobo on this one. I enjoy the journey (leveling) much more than I ever enjoyed the destination (end-game). This applies to every game I ever played save the old school games which had no, or virtually unreachable level caps.

I like leveling. Not all character advancement needs to come from equipment. Are the characters not learning anything through the endless equipment grind on how to kill, heal, buff, bend minds, whatever better through their own skill?

I hate raiding. Well, what I really hate is the rigid class specifications for raiding and lame looting systems. LOL you don't have the required 3 clerics and 2 warriors? Too bad! The boss dropped Shaman pants and you didn't bring a shaman? BWAHAHA.

I love grouping. I love intereacting with other people. These are MMOs afterall.

Originally posted by Bjornulve

Originally posted by bonobotheory

... cut...  but I'll quit again as soon as I reach the end.

 

 

It's a good question OP, and I'm with Bonobo on this one. I enjoy the journey (leveling) much more than I ever enjoyed the destination (end-game). This applies to every game I ever played save the old school games which had no, or virtually unreachable level caps.

I wish I knew how to make a poll, I want to ask a question and I think it would be quite decisive.  I think the community will fall rather neatly on either side of the question.   Oh I just noticed an insert poll button.  Think I will make that thread.