Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

This thread proves what we've all thought of the Senate program all along at least. We told you Greypawn. We knew SOE better than you...Noob. Someone who cared never stood a chance. Theres only one position SOE ever wanted a player to have....face down, ass up. Always been that way. But, we told ya that.

You hit the nail on the head with that one....

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

This thread proves what we've all thought of the Senate program all along at least. We told you Greypawn. We knew SOE better than you...Noob. Someone who cared never stood a chance. Theres only one position SOE ever wanted a player to have....face down, ass up. Always been that way. But, we told ya that.

you senaturds just got TOLD

Originally posted by j1flaw 

And ayelin, you know as well as I do that TUX was getting burned out, so you can't say this was a good experience for him to be going through

Whoa whoa whoa...wait a minute Cos. I may have been getting bored silly and quite frustrated at things moving in reverse since Hoth's development, but I was not burned out mate. Every time I logged in, I knew what I was facing and I accepted it fully. Some nights I did need ME time, but I made that clear to most people. I didn't quit because I disliked the game OR I felt "burned out". I PvP'd, I PvE'd, I flew, I helped, I decorated, I chatted...I ALWAYS had something "I" could do...I left because my $ was the best weapon to combat what SoE did. Removing me from the Senate was/is a non-issue...lying and rumor mongering WAS!

If I went back, how long before you think they'd perma ban me? I'm willing to bet they'd do it within 3-days...my name is taboo on their forums and they have no problem silencing EVERY post about me (minus Draakull's). Just not worth it. I work for my $ and I value my time. I won't be made a scapegoat for their floundering game and continual mistakes. I also wouldn't ever pretend that they're moving in a positive direction with the current plans...they aren't. They're killing the game at a time when they NEED to be moving at a pace they haven't moved at since launch. They have FAR too many gamebreaking issues right now and they continue to ignore them.

So again...I was NOT "burned out". I was busy as hell in-game, but that was the role I accepted and I dealt with proudly every time I logged in. In fact, you have no idea how therapeutic it was to log in for me :P 

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

This thread proves what we've all thought of the Senate program all along at least. We told you Greypawn. We knew SOE better than you...Noob. Someone who cared never stood a chance. Theres only one position SOE ever wanted a player to have....face down, ass up. Always been that way. But, we told ya that.

EPIC LOL!!!

---

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

This thread proves what we've all thought of the Senate program all along at least. We told you Greypawn. We knew SOE better than you...Noob. Someone who cared never stood a chance. Theres only one position SOE ever wanted a player to have....face down, ass up. Always been that way. But, we told ya that.

---

True. SOE dont give a s... about what their customers want. if they could they would properly rip out the thongs of anyone who says ANYTHING contrary to their opinion.

SOE is the gaming company iv ever experienced that screws over their customers the most... It is like SOE comes from bizzarow world, where you pay companies to knock you around and swallow their bull....

I sure had learned by lesson! If a game is even remotely connected to SOE, STAY CLEAR OF IT!!!

Originally posted by TUX426

Originally posted by j1flaw 

And ayelin, you know as well as I do that TUX was getting burned out, so you can't say this was a good experience for him to be going through

 

Whoa whoa whoa...wait a minute Cos. I may have been getting bored silly and quite frustrated at things moving in reverse since Hoth's development, but I was not burned out mate. Every time I logged in, I knew what I was facing and I accepted it fully. Some nights I did need ME time, but I made that clear to most people. I didn't quit because I disliked the game OR I felt "burned out". I PvP'd, I PvE'd, I flew, I helped, I decorated, I chatted...I ALWAYS had something "I" could do...I left because my $ was the best weapon to combat what SoE did. Removing me from the Senate was/is a non-issue...lying and rumor mongering WAS!

If I went back, how long before you think they'd perma ban me? I'm willing to bet they'd do it within 3-days...my name is taboo on their forums and they have no problem silencing EVERY post about me (minus Draakull's). Just not worth it. I work for my $ and I value my time. I won't be made a scapegoat for their floundering game and continual mistakes. I also wouldn't ever pretend that they're moving in a positive direction with the current plans...they aren't. They're killing the game at a time when they NEED to be moving at a pace they haven't moved at since launch. They have FAR too many gamebreaking issues right now and they continue to ignore them.

So again...I was NOT "burned out". I was busy as hell in-game, but that was the role I accepted and I dealt with proudly every time I logged in. In fact, you have no idea how therapeutic it was to log in for me :P 

I hope you know that I don't feel what they did was right. I'm totally against what happened, but every inquiry I made to finding out about the situation, I was ignored. I think Draak took the easy road... I'll always feel that way.

If you say you weren't burned out I'll believe you, but you really seemed to be bogged down with more drama than anything.

I know you enjoyed playing... You probably still would... But I agree, the best weapon is your $ and the community to not shut up about the issue. and they're doing a pretty good job of that...

Thanks for telling me what you really felt about playing. I'm sorry that SOE took that away from you. I just perceived your feelings about logging in differently i guess. my mistake.

It is just so absurd to even try to paint this situation happening to someone as them being lucky or better off for it to have happened.

Yeah yeah, I think it sucks, but I'm happy for you Tux.  You really needed to get banned, have your name dragged through the mud, have your kids accounts banned and get chased away from the game you work so hard trying to help with. 

The problem was with tux so in the end it was a good thing.

*sigh* 

No, more along the lines of it's better to get out of the senate now instead of later... Things weren't going well as it was, i could only imagine how bad things would get closer to the GCW if they didn't match their expectations. Plus the Senate has really started to decay lately in my eyes... There are a few great people in there, but it's really not what it could be.

I didn't mean it was awesome tux was banned...

This thread is truly epic and of a good read of all view points, especially in the recent days.

I have reached this conclusion:

The Senate Program is a means of having the customers believe that their feedback is being voiced and under consideration.  Those outsourced volunteers (though passonate and of good intent) in the program must comply with the management or be dismissed.  The appropiate analogy of this is a government ruled by a dictator with a puppet parliament, North Korea being an example.

This is my politically correct version of FikusOfAhazi's post.

Originally posted by Dracus

The Senate Program is a means of having the customers believe that their feedback is being voiced and under consideration.

It's been that way since it's inception, as is any community volunteer program attached to an mmorpg.  Does anyone truly believe that a volunteer will have any sway over the developer of a for-profit product?

Lol.

I believe such programs work with Indies where the developers need to maintain good relations since they have a small customer base.

Originally posted by veritas_X

Originally posted by Dracus

The Senate Program is a means of having the customers believe that their feedback is being voiced and under consideration.

 

It's been that way since it's inception, as is any community volunteer program attached to an mmorpg.  Does anyone truly believe that a volunteer will have any sway over the developer of a for-profit product?

Lol.

 

No but the community should to a point. What's wrong with adding a 'republic' like senate in a sw mmo forum to hash out the best interperatation of what the community desires? Better than decifering it all yourself and using your own interperatation? It could work just as well or better...if used. If not used, what kind of company would do that? ya.

Originally posted by Daffid011

It is just so absurd to even try to paint this situation happening to someone as them being lucky or better off for it to have happened.

 

Yeah yeah, I think it sucks, but I'm happy for you Tux.  You really needed to get banned, have your name dragged through the mud, have your kids accounts banned and get chased away from the game you work so hard trying to help with. 

The problem was with tux so in the end it was a good thing.

*sigh* 

Thank you!!! You seem to understand something that so few can until it happens to them.

Originally posted by j1flaw

No, more along the lines of it's better to get out of the senate now instead of later... Things weren't going well as it was, i could only imagine how bad things would get closer to the GCW if they didn't match their expectations. Plus the Senate has really started to decay lately in my eyes... There are a few great people in there, but it's really not what it could be.

I didn't mean it was awesome tux was banned...

I know what you mean MC :) No worries :D

But...about the GCW Update...ya know, that Update is sink or swim for SoE...they can NOT afford to fail on it. If they do, game over. And I did NOT want the game to be over. I would have been in every thread asking every question, demanding they do things RIGHT, not just fast. I would have been a pain in the ass tbh...but it would have ONLY been to make sure they didn't botch it...not just to be a douche.

They ignored my repeated pleas for better battle ground communication (chat or voice), a better que system, more que options (like JOIN NEXT), the ability to join a battle in progress, the ability for neutrals to utilized as "fillers", the suggestion that bunkers be ONE STORY, auto flip Overt timers...all of those would have prevented the battle field breakdown we have going on. They ignored them all. I was not going to let them ruin the GCW the same way. Hanse has no problem blaming the Art team for the **edit**ed up bunkers HE PLACED in-game...he would have no such excuses with the GCW Update.

Things would have been busy...but that update meant a lot to me and I would have given 110%. Like I said earlier...now I just hope the game dies. ;)

Originally posted by j1flaw

No, more along the lines of it's better to get out of the senate now instead of later... Things weren't going well as it was, i could only imagine how bad things would get closer to the GCW if they didn't match their expectations. Plus the Senate has really started to decay lately in my eyes... There are a few great people in there, but it's really not what it could be.

I didn't mean it was awesome tux was banned...

I understand that you don't think it is awesome that tux was banned, but your reflection on the subject is just very typical in these situations where soe acts this way.  The focus is always shifted to the people who are now rejected from the community and away from soe.   The real problem of how soe is conducting themselves is almost entirely glossed over and ever so slightly pushed onto the players who were wronged. 
 

Right now you are still doing it.  Do you really think the problem with the senate is the lack of quality people?

Looking at the state of SWG over the time the senate has been around, can you honestly say that soe has reacted to the wishes of the players as described by the senators?  I don't see a long history of players cheering the direction of the game as a result of their feedback through the senate system.  I see top 5 lists with issues that date back to the implementation of the nge.  I see long lists of people complaining about loot cards, lag, neglected systems, exploits and bugs, population issues and so on that go unattended for years.  I don't recall people asking for pink ewoks and zombies however. 

In the underlined passage above, I think you are sugesting the senate is about to implode as a result of the new CRM being a total wanker and some bad chemistry of senators, but that isn't exactly how it comes off in your words. 

In my eyes, the devs are very lucky to have such a dedicated bunch that sacrifice a lot of time to make up the senate. The community supported the senate on the grounds that the senate would be an influencial part of the community. Well it has yet to be used as such and it was doomed from the start as a lot of us saw. Tragic really. The talent and dedication is there. They had the opportunity to gain back a lot of the hatred that has developed by taking player contributions and ideas and runnign with them. Instead, most were outright denied and nothing was ever said.

I'm not saying SOE is obligated to listen to the senate, but the tools were there to bring in player feedback in a way that I've never seen in other games and really take it home. The game could've seen some great ideas and great content added... I don;t know the politics behind it all, but if the senate was able to drive the community respones to bring content to the game, we wouldn't have some of these really sad looking updates involving valentines day cards... We'd have Star Wars.

Do I find it shady that the horror master Dotanuki pushed for zombies and bailed? absolutely... The justification that it is EU material doesn't make sense to me, as only 5% of the playerbase will probably read that book, but 100% of us have seen the movies...

obviously I can't prove those numbers, but just think about it... The community wants Star Wars, The senate listens to the community and wants to bring Star Wars, so what's the problem?

Meh, I get depressed thinking about it lol

Cosmo

For the record...

I said  it's for the best for HIM. He needed to get out of there. In the end it was causing too much stress and hardship, that he needed to get out. Yes it sucks he left the game, that's not what I wanted, but things have a way of working themselves out.

and I am glad you  know what is best for Tux!

I played this game every day for a looooong time.

I played every day for five years and two months...leveled over 20 combat toons and had every crafter?  So what?

EDIT: And ayelin, you know as well as I do that TUX was getting burned out, so you can't say this was a good experience for him to be going through

Tux wasn't getting burned out.  He was frustrated, disappointed and determined to honestly represent players NOT burned out. 

Originally posted by Daffid011

It is just so absurd to even try to paint this situation happening to someone as them being lucky or better off for it to have happened.

 

Yeah yeah, I think it sucks, but I'm happy for you Tux.  You really needed to get banned, have your name dragged through the mud, have your kids accounts banned and get chased away from the game you work so hard trying to help with. 

The problem was with tux so in the end it was a good thing.

*sigh* 

There is ONE positive side to all of this... And I can say this as a person who's also been kicked out so I'm in the same boat as TUX...

The senate is a house of cards... From the outside it looks strong and sturdy... But once you take a few cards away... It doesn't take much more for the entire thing to come falling down... And within the community... That's exactly what I see happening. Public opinion and faith in the program is at an all time low and for the time being... Its only getting worse.
 

Its like I said in an e-mail to Brasse... It seems to me as if SOE has basically screwed themselves. Public opinion is already at an all time low thanks to what they did to TUX... And now they're removing senators simply because SOE doesn't like their "style". I mean at least when they kicked me... They made up some what of an excuse... Though their excuse was complete double talk and the facts don't support their claim... At least they made some effort to come up with an excuse... By the time they removed DrDista... They didn't even bother doing that much... They simply kicked him down to blue glowie.

The whole thing sends the distinct message that if you don't strap on some knee pads you will be silenced in the senate. In saying that... That in its self really sends the message as to what the senate is really about... And who should be interested in being a senator under current management.


What TUX posted that broke the rules in the grand scale of forum violations was about as weak as a baby fart... And it wasn't the reason they kicked him out of the senate... He got kicked for telling one player via PM from another forum account that  "hey I think the CRM has it out for me". What did I do that got me kicked out? I didn't break the rules at all... And I have E-mails from Brasse saying as much that there was no TOS violation that prompted my removal. And DrDista... They didn't even spend the effort to try coming up with a weaksauce excuse for why they kicked him out... They simply kicked him with out even giving him a reason why.


Sure in TUX's case SOE has tried to spin it and to say that it was for breaking the rules... But as you can see from the post and several PM's draak has sent around... He felt "that tux pushed him into a corner, and he had no choice"... At the time of TUX's suspension for his "violation"... HE WAS STILL A SENATOR. It wasn't until after he told one player he thought the CRM had it out for him that suddenly he was banned for 2 extra weeks and stripped of his rank.
 

So three senators removed... And none of us were removed for breaking the rules. That sends a HUGE message to the players. And given the number of locked/deleted threads on the forums... That message has been well received.

Out of all of this... That is the positive side that I see in all of this... Through SOE's actions in kicking a few players out... They've shown their true intentions as to what they want from the senate... And from the senators. Those who don't comply with that get removed and/or slandered by management. SOE screwed themselves because they showed their true wants and intentions... And IMO that's the one positive thing out of all of this. Yes it took a few people (myself included) to go down to show it which is unfortunate, but at least those of us who were removed weren't completely removed in vein.
 

But that's just my 2 cents on it.

Originally posted by AnXieTyX

 

There is ONE positive side to all of this... And I can say this as a person who's also been kicked out so I'm in the same boat as TUX...

The senate is a house of cards... From the outside it looks strong and sturdy... But once you take a few cards away... It doesn't take much more for the entire thing to come falling down... And within the community... That's exactly what I see happening. Public opinion and faith in the program is at an all time low and for the time being... Its only getting worse. 
  

eh,

swg: senate reform era

 You guys have the ability to create your own senate in game. Thats whats great about swg...you don't really need the devs help or permission . You could make your own website, elect your own senators, and have the almighty /cancel at your disposal. If you guys are really serious, screw SOE...do it without them. I know some of you remember how. Soe will not 'save' anything. But, risking of a new type of player organization taking off would be risky.  A player union within a game. may not work, but it could light a spark for the future. Use zombies as your first cause. Or be polite and contructive with SOE..yes sir and thank you and what not.

SWG is a freak experiment...so experiment. Mix some shit together and see what happens.

Originally posted by Iheamylap

Well, it seems you guys got heard well enough to loose your Senate seats. Goodjob.

There is no one way to lead and no one way to get the job done.  I also didn't disagree that there was something fishy and unjust going on in the Community Management team. you keep ignoring that point.  I'll repeat myself again in saying, my point was you and Tux were not complete victims in this, like you keep trying to state.  I assume we'll just keep disagreeing, but thats my opinion.

You might not like how "I" do things, but I'm still there, in my position, still getting something done.  I still voice my concerns and I still stand up for what needs to be said about the smuggler community, but I do it in my own way.  My own way DOES try and secure my Senate seat, but only in that, loosing it looses one of the advantages it gives me.  Otherwise, I wouldn't care.  I voiced my concerns before and will do so after, but as a Senator some of the things I say/complain about seem to have a higher priority than they did when I wasn't Senator.  

A senate seat is a forum rank... And nothing more. It doesn't enable or disable someone from posting/PM'ing and making a difference... It doesn't enable or disable your ability to step up to lead a community either. And to think because you have that rank suddenly your granted all of the above is simply foolish. Long before I became a senator I was posting and PM'ing devs and making a small difference (which is as much as any player, senator included, can hope to make). Who a person is and what they do doesn't come a rank. Long before becoming a senator I was hassling the devs with ideas and suggestions... I was on TC testing things, gathering data, and working along side QA to try to squash bugs... A senate tag didn't enable or disable me from doing any of that.


Yea I lost my senate rank... Oh well. The only things through all of it that I've even been irritated with is the fact that both Draak and Brasse have been posting and saying things about me behind my back which is highly highly unprofessional... And as a paying customer... I don't feel I should be treated in that manner. And the 2nd thing that's irritated me through all of it is that they've been trying to promote a discriminatory practice against me as a reason for my removal. And the 3rd and final thing that I've been annoyed with is the general breakdown that's being seen within the commando community atm. Between all the bickering/flaming/trolling, and people with less than 50 posts in the commando forums who are posting in what visibly looks like someone going "OMG I WANT TO BE SENATOR"... The commando community is in quite disarray atm. The combination of the 3 things are all I can say I really have been annoyed with or at all frustrated about.


My actual removal its self... That doesn't really phase me in the least. Sure there are some who will probably read my posts and use the age old saying that "if he's posting then he does care"... But the truth of the matter is when it happened... I actually had a laugh over it while I was sitting in vent with my guildies.


Once I go back to posting on the official forums... Nothing about who I am, or how I post is going to change. And at the same token... Nothing about my opinion or presence and how its received by the rest of the commando community will likely change either. Those who respected my opinion before I was a senator, and while I was a senator will still likely respect my opinion even now.

I guess now I effectively turned this into an assumed Iheam Vs Tux&Anxiety battle, so I'm done. My mistake of thinking I could make a point about you two guys' behaviors. I wasn't trying to discount that you were wronged by SOE, but that it takes Two to Tango. My point also wasn't that you two did not accomplish positive work as Senators, but that, atleast as far as Anxiety goes, nto all of your attempts at getting your voice heard were constructive. Sure, the Senate doesn't have to be a buddy-buddy group of hand holding friends, but you should atleast TRY to work with people and not constantly rub them the wrong way...which is usually what you did Anxiety.

 

Your "point" about my behavior or TUX's is a quite moot point and for one simple reason... Our "behavior" never broke the rules of the forum.

Its like I said in the blue glowie forums to you... The rules of the forum are the rules of the forum. It doesn't matter who you are... There are one set of rules, and that one set of rules applies to all. None of us were removed for violating the official forum rules... We were all removed because the current CRM doesn't have an ounce of professionalism. A point that's validated due to the fact that even after being internally investigated after what he did to TUX... He still ran his mouth about me in private to other players.

And as for the things I posted in the senate forums... While I cant defend all of them... I can easily defend the majority. When someone posted something that had some negative impact on either the commando community... Or the PvP'ing community in general... Yea I did speak up... And I did post and tear the idea down... And 99% of the time I never went after the poster... Simply the posters idea. You see that's major flaw with most of  the current batch of senators... And that's the inability to separate an impersonal debate over an idea from a debate that's personal.

There's a saying that I'm reminded of... A very famous saying by Edmund Burke that reads, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing". Now while this is a discussion over a video game, and the consequences don't even compare. I believe the general principal is still the same. When people are saying things that are completely retarded when suggesting a course of action... Its the responsibility of someone to stand up and say "wait a minute, that's not right, nor is that a good idea". And of things pertaining to PvP... There were only 3 senators who did that... And all have been removed. And of whats left for senators... Most all of them are so completely out of touch with the PvP'ing portion of the playerbase they cant  even come close to representing that segment of players. And our lovely GP senator is a fine example of that... Calling PvP'ers grierfers because SOE wont shell out some money to upgrade servers.

And no matter what... It all comes back to what I said before... Senators aren't there to get E-Votes from other senators. I don't need you to agree with anything I've posted. You posting to agree with a senator means almost dick.

What Fikus says holds much truth.  The current senate is largely ineffective as it has been set up and is not the fault of the players.   The senate obviously is not having any results that will benefit the players and soe continues to march to their own drum.  The only party that benefits from the senate is soe by giving the players false hope that they have a say in how the game is developed.  That ishow "working within the system" has been designed and it is the only desired result. 

I doubt lucas arts would be happy with soe if even the possibility of a bad press release was to come out of SWG while they are trying to build up hype for the old republic.   

A little solidarity would go a long way I think.  If you really want to help the game then something needs to change, because what is happening isn't working. 

ROFLMAO

I started a thread on the O-Boards about the senate asking the question if there could be a "Lion of the SWG senate".

This topic has moved:

/swg/posts/list.m?topic_id=986751

**Thread removed. Reason Code 013: Politics and/or Religion**

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Well, if you want a subject offed, I would guess this would be as good as any other reason.

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

 You guys have the ability to create your own senate in game. Thats whats great about swg...you don't really need the devs help or permission . You could make your own website, elect your own senators, and have the almighty /cancel at your disposal. If you guys are really serious, screw SOE...do it without them. I know some of you remember how. Soe will not 'save' anything. But, risking of a new type of player organization taking off would be risky.  A player union within a game. may not work, but it could light a spark for the future. Use zombies as your first cause. Or be polite and contructive with SOE..yes sir and thank you and what not.

SWG is a freak experiment...so experiment. Mix some shit together and see what happens.

I've never given a QFE before, EVER.

But I absolutely love this line of thinking form Fikus!

/QFE!!

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

 You guys have the ability to create your own senate in game. Thats whats great about swg...you don't really need the devs help or permission . You could make your own website, elect your own senators, and have the almighty /cancel at your disposal. If you guys are really serious, screw SOE...do it without them. I know some of you remember how. Soe will not 'save' anything. But, risking of a new type of player organization taking off would be risky.  A player union within a game. may not work, but it could light a spark for the future. Use zombies as your first cause. Or be polite and contructive with SOE..yes sir and thank you and what not.

SWG is a freak experiment...so experiment. Mix some shit together and see what happens.

Hmm... Anxiety, have you been talking to Fikus? lol