World of Warcraft has not killed MMO's, nor has it ruined the style of other MMO's, nor is it the worst game pile of turds.  WoW is the game responsible for breathing life into an otherwise tiny slice of video game players.  If it weren't for WoW, I would not have any interest in an MMO.  WoW is sort of the Gateway MMO that people play before getting into the harder stuff like EVE.

Had WoW not been created, or had it not been successful as it currently is, you wouldn't have so many new MMO's coming out.  MMO's are not dead, they have evolved.  There are of course the games that are being developed in the old style, but those are becoming more and more scarce.  The fact is that if you don't like the way the genre has evolved, you honestly should not be complaining about how "In the old days we could pretend to write stories and declare war on others" because you all sound like people in their 80s talking about how Frank Sinatra was much better than the new style of music.  And you probably shouldn't be on a website called www.mmorpg.com because MMO's are clearly not your cups of tea.

And yes, I would have loved to play a sandbox game, but I also am very interested in the new games coming out such as Aion, GW2, and SWTOR.

Originally posted by Jairoe03

I think investors should also acknowledge the time it takes to make a good MMO, rather than rushing a product out when "deadlines are coming up" just to see if they can get a return on their investment. They should see by now that a polished game has a greater chance of success than an unpolished game. As BloodNinja has said, "You can't rush good pizza" (if pizza was an MMO?) I don't know I felt like referring to BloodNinja since I been rereading his stuff lately. lol.

Well... That would require investors that have at least *some* idea about games to start with. Very, VERY unlikely. ALL investors care about is ROI(Return On Investment). Thats why most successful groups have specialists who hand hold the investors, and feed them shiny tech demo's and other such distractions to keep their attention off of the quarterly clock.

Undercapitalization is one of THE most serious problems that lead to failed games.  Coupled with a lack of talent to implement The Vision(tm), they explain the overwhelming majority of the terrible failures we've all so painfully been witness to over the years.

Remember, this is games we're talking about - and just a genre of them.. Most of the worlds 6.78 billion population are actually doing something else, and most of the the tiny infinite portion of us playing mmo's have no time spending hours of hours in them. Playing games like going to work, grinding and raiding 24/7 is a phase some have to have. For most people gaming is just a couple of hours of fun every week.

So what can we learn when designing games from that..

Originally posted by tmr819

Sometimes, less-than-stellar games try to stay alive by reworking their content or their payment scheme.

I think TR and DDO are some pretty interesting examples of this.

TR was a fairly decent game that was simply NOT WORTH a $15/month subscription fee.

Ditto for DDO.

DDO is now converting to a F2P/MT-based payment scheme, something I wish TR had somehow been able to do. TR's devs tried and to some extent succeeded in making the game much better by the end than it was at its beginning, but it was the subscription payment scheme, imo, that really killed TR. It was always going to be a second-tier game charging premium-tier subscription fees. That's a prescription for MMO suicide.

Of the two games, TR was the better game, but DDO had the better idea how to stay alive. If BOTH games had somehow switched to a F2P/MT basis, I think TR had a really decent chance to not only survive but grow, improve, and eventually gain some serious popularity.

DDO, not so much, but we'll see. At least Turbine was willing to "think outside the box", payment scheme-wise.

DDO surviving is now up to the courts as Turbine is suing Atari over DDO, or rather DDU.

What truly boggles my mind is how it seems as if every new game that comes out is being "produced" by companies run by people that don't play games themselves. Maybe I should narrow that down to the people that hold the purse strings.

The movie "Groundhog Day" comes to mind. They live in that type of world that's the same day repeating over and over and they keep trying different things and not realizing that the outcome will be the same.

These people appear to have one thing in mind and only one thing, money. Regardless of common sense or their programmers or whomever telling them the idea is a bad one, they think it'll make them a few more dollars and they go with it.

For example, pushing a game out too early. How many times has that caused a game to do poorly or even to cause it to fail completely? Yet these people continue to do it. Another biggie to me is alienating and/or pissing off your customers by poor communication or lack of communication completely. SWG is THE prime example of both of these. It was pushed out too early, but it was able to recover. It continued on a while longer before it alienated and pissed off it's customers by totally ignoring their wishes/needs. Like an airplane that takes off with too little fuel and a rookie pilot who just got his license by reading "Flying Planes For Dummies". It might take off, it might fly a little while but it's destined to crash and burn.

Sadly I think that Champions Online is rolling down the same runway. Before the game has even been released Cryptic has managed to alienate and anger a large chunk of it's potential playerbase with the whole Lifetime Subscription fiasco. People hate to feel like they've been deceived, they also hate to think that a company that makes a product they enjoy doesn't care about their feelings.

Where do these guys think the money comes from? They act as if there's this huge pool of money and since Blizzard figured out a way to tap it, they can too. I've got news for you guys, it's not by running that huge pipe across the backs of your customers.

Originally posted by brenth

I have been looking for a new game to subscribe to for about a year now  and all the games that have come down the belt  have been  very tack simplistic and of very poor quality

FALLEN EARTH  this is my genra!  without even hearing another thing about the game  its allready has +2   on my score card  only space and modernwarfare might rate higher.  so when I say I am not following FE into live  that means that it must fall very short of its potential.

CHAMPIONS ONLINE  was kind of a back up  runner up  but when I tried the very short open beta (like 4 days?)  I also found it also seemed to be of very poor construction and had no relation the the PnP version of the game  when it came to power rules.

to me it seemed a poorly discuised COH wannabie 

I did beta with SEED  which ALL the beta testers  posted the impending doom to deaf ears  and it folded like a month after release   the seed theme DESERVES another chance  but  with a real engine and content  and it WOULD FLY  (its theme was  a crashed teraforming ship  on a new world  massive potential)

game designers have lost the knowlage of what is fun and interesting  falling back into the tank and spank   with combat oriented economies  they dont   acknolage all the other playstyles except as an after thought

 

WAR MONGER  likes non stop action 

ACHIEVER  rank levels  awards

EXPLORER:  the world as well as the game mechanics

SOCIALIZER:  they sometimes come into the game and can sit and do nothing but chat with friends or strangers

ROLEPLAYER: they love to delve the depths of their charactor and the race histories and motivations and alignments

RIDDLER:  they love solving riddles  puzzles  languages  misteries translating runes 

BUILDER:  these players tend to love  building and crafting  from swords and armor to whole castles and city walls and bridges  that ma forever change the world  some are artisans  that just dont want to  craft a basic war sword  they want to be able to create nearly one of a kind works of crafting art.

BANKER:  their goal is to gather valuables,,    money property  gems  rare goods   to become welthy whatever that is to the given game. 

now  everyone is all of these  just they tend twords one or more of them more than others  and there may be some ive missed  im recalling this from a paper i did long ago

nearly all MMO have tended to focus only on the first and second one  leaving the rest of the players with scraps,, starving for a game that will fill their desired game play.

 

example:: mmos place no importance on food and water   so crossing a great desert is trivial.

example:  national auctions means that a few masters are all that a game world needs  and lesser  crafters goods are worthless.

example:  most MMOs have  evenly distributed goods and resources  so there is no market pressures   no need for caravans to need to take pineapples up north to trade them for snow peas  or   fish from the sea to the iron mountains   

example:  vending machine merchants they have no other lives than standing and selling to players they also tend to buy and sell with infinity  

example:  food is unimportant   and doesnt spoil  which  colapses reasons for several supporting crafts like  basket weavers, potters  meat smokers/dryers   since there is no climate or seasons  no need to collect wood for winter or store food

example:  there is no real disease or pestilance on a large scale no famines or blights   no goblins raiding the grain silos which all would make killer  built in plot devices instead of  generic kill 12/ collect 10  quests

example: there is no drama or bonding with the world  players currently could care less if a game city is destroyed merchants are vending machines they dont even know our names or reputation

example: existing quests are predetermined  one answer  outcomes  even the "evil" players must take a quest givers coin purse to the intended destonation instead of flat stealing it,, or  you get to the chest in the cave  you must kill all the orcs instead of sneeking or bribing or distracting   so you do the quest BECAUSE it told you to not for any real or good reason.

example:  you pop into the game allready a veteran  you have no real life or family  wife  games should be a bit more raw and brutal to players  have them enter the town as a pesant  begging (or steeling) on the streets  or scrounging behind inns for scraps  let them get beat up by  bullies or guards,  let them get thrown into jail  just along as its done fun!  let them bond with  bosses or teachers  or gate guards  they will begin to care if the city is attacked in the future. ((players will bond very strongly  in times like these give them skills like  throw object, cower, lol bite   let them BECOME a fighter or mage vian a squire or apprentice if a game does it right it wont feel like some kind of tutorial, it will be just as fun as the rest of the game)

example  organizations..churches  there are no good religions in a game  there are monks and clerics  but no faith in which they belong no followers to convert,  no collection plate,  no temples its the same for mages or warriors   they just dont belong to anything bigger than themselves WHY? 

example the world is effectivly static  its the same 1 month after release as it is 1 month before it folds  unless there is a patch or expansion   the players have no freedom to cause change to their world.. once a safe city allways a safe city forever.

 

 players should be duel class  an adventure class  and a home class   (i prefer a skill system  hate to be limited by game saying that if im a blacksmith that for some reason im unable to comprehend how to fry an egg.)

 

 

excellent post. Most of the stuff you wrote is also the reason why eve online has an ever increasing population.

It's interesting that Garrett made enough off of the failed Tabula Rasa to pay the Russians to fly him into space.

Also that a past gaming genius couldn't be resurrected to create a success in the 21st century.

I sense a big change coming.  Game development time has to get down to one year to be able to keep up with hardware development and attract investors, and new methods of programming have to be developed to accomplish that.

I'm looking forward to the new developments using body control so we can all get our fat butts up out of our chairs and gaming becomes a healthy pasttime.

Originally posted by Expatriate

I'm looking forward to the new developments using body control so we can all get our fat butts up out of our chairs and gaming becomes a healthy pasttime.

Heh  http://footballsuperstars.com/post/do_androids_dream_of_electric_sheep_59/

That day will come but would we actually use it there have been a few such things in the past that I'm sure many have cluttering there cupboard dance mat's GH instrument's or my personal favourite thing for sitting a plantpot on the Wii fit board.

     As far as SWG goes, time will tell the tale.  First off, it's been stated by LA that they will continue to support SWG after TOR releases, though that very much remains to be seen.  Second, at least a decent portion of the current playerbase would have to stay in order for the game to continue even operating, since subs righ now are critically low.  If LA does continue allowing SWG to use the IP for SWG, and subscriptions don't immediately fall off a cliff, then TOR itself will be the deciding factor.  If TOR is a great game, and meets most expectations, SWG will certainly fall.  However, before those who 3 years later are still rife with hatred toward the game start to salvitate, there is still a real possibility that TOR will not be to SWG what the Death Star was to Alderaan.    

     Remember, the lead dev on TOR is the same guy who has caused you to cry yourself to sleep on your Yoda pillow for  so many nights with the NGE.  He's also the one who poured a tanker-load of gasoline on the fire the day after NGE launched by telling players during a Stratics.com chat that they were getting possitive feedback from the community as players were actually cancelling their accounts in numbers never seen before or likely to again in an MMO.  I've personally tried to post on the TOR forums mentioning that there needs to be some showcasing of other aspects for a full feel of the game.  While I was respectful and courteous in these posts, they were removed within 15 minutes each time.  Apparently they only accept posts with delirious praise, kind of like the clamp SOE put on NGE posts, even the ones that weren't death threats.

     TOR has shown very little of the non-core elements of the game to the public.  Crafting has not been showcased, nor has character customization (the one and only game aspect that SWG not only excels at, but beats nearly any other game on the market at).  No one knows, outside B/W Austin, how questing, PvP, space,or even speeders will work. 

     My point is, that while SWG certainly won't live on forever, SWG has been a severely flawed game from day one, (sorry pre-cu fans) and is still going.  Don't start toasting just yet, because the players that are left are obviously a dedicated bunch, and TOR will have to be a top notch game that beats SWG on many levels, unless of course LA pulls the plug, to pry these players away and finally spell the end of the game that just won't die: Star Wars Galaxies

Originally posted by Expatriate

It's interesting that Garrett made enough off of the failed Tabula Rasa to pay the Russians to fly him into space.

Also that a past gaming genius couldn't be resurrected to create a success in the 21st century.

I sense a big change coming.  Game development time has to get down to one year to be able to keep up with hardware development and attract investors, and new methods of programming have to be developed to accomplish that.

I'm looking forward to the new developments using body control so we can all get our fat butts up out of our chairs and gaming becomes a healthy pasttime.

I flew into Space....AWESOME!!! I guess the booze took over because I cannot remember jack.....

hahaha, Garrett - E = Garrtt + IO = Garriott ....maybe Richard and I can start thinking up equations for fun while he is in space and I am driving to work....stuck here on the ground :) 

Much as I dislike WOW,

QFT

" Seriously though, you're right. The misery of a game that makes about $150,000,000 A MONTH, is in horrible misery. Damn, just close the servers and delete the databases.. it's a horrible travestiy..."

There are tons of games out there that should be put down but like any gamble, the people with the money on the table will always try to hold out for the payoff.

Garrett,

Geez.... why did you guys have to use a picture of Ol' Yeller? It made me sad as soon as I saw that.

For those stinky MMOs that you're writting about, you should have used a picture like one of the following:

Hah! Old Yeller wasnt me.

Likely you can thank Evan for that....it made me laugh and say geezus at the same time.

THE MOUSE PICTURE ROCKS!  HAHAHA that has unlimited uses!

---

Originally posted by SunwolfNC

---

Originally posted by Isturi

When can we put WoW out of its misery??

---

 
Are you stoned? You surely sound like it. Oh wait - I know... you failed at trolling. I get it.
Why else would someone suggest that a game with over 10 million CURRENT subscriptions should be put out of its "misery". Where, until recently, an estimated 3% of a countries ECONOMY is based off of selling items in the game world.
Seriously though, you're right. The misery of a game that makes about $150,000,000 A MONTH, is in horrible misery. Damn, just close the servers and delete the databases.. it's a horrible travestiy...

---

LOL you don't really think Blizzard is making $150,000,000 a month of WoW do you? You can't really be that dumb...

"In closing, I often wonder if game developers ask the question in meetings, is this fun? MMOs that die, die for a reason. I truly believe it is because there is a huge lack of fun in the game. Something just did not jive with the players and that was it, game over. Perhaps before investors spend money, marketing plots the hype, and developers start designing endless code for a game, the game makers should ask that simple question: Will this be fun, Or should we put this idea out of its misery from the get go and save people a lot of time and money? Games are recreation for many people, if they are not fun, do not make them. If you make them like a job, people will eventually quit and find a better one. The story of the MMO industry is a good one to study for anyone wanting to develop video games. There are triumphs and losses, while some losses limp on into the next decade, others have been put out of their misery."

I am not an mmo developer but some problems apply to every kind of project in my opinion. (With a few differences like that  i call players customers, my customers have lawyers and they don't take no for an answer). I think that mmo developers face about the same problems including the hudge gap between the design and implementation of an ideaware, customer-player needs and finally what tools they have in order to create a succesful (fun) customer experience.

But while i have almost every kind of tool to create, test, optimize  and receive feedback from my users, mmo devs behave like they have nothing when it comes to a way that will relief them from the tremendous problems that design and implementation of massive interactions create and instead of using precoded frameworks they spend several years re-inventing the wheel which actually has nothing to do with the fun factor of the game itself.

I hope that new mmos like Stargate (Bigworld tech i think) Sw:ToR (Hero Engine) make a good use of these frameworks, become financially succesful and an example to other mmo companies who will dare to experiment with new ideas and focus in the fun part of their games without wasting time and worrying about issues that the majority of new mmos have.

Originally posted by garrett

Hah! Old Yeller wasnt me.

Likely you can thank Evan for that....it made me laugh and say geezus at the same time.

 

THE MOUSE PICTURE ROCKS!  HAHAHA that has unlimited uses!

Do you have a sick sense of humor or an office pool to see how many times someone whines about the NGE?

Seriously, It's like a sport to these guys to see who can't get over it the longest.

Did you see that one post?:

"THE NGE RUINED MY LIFE! my wife's life, my co workers life, and my dog died.  He walked in front of a car because he went def from the frequency pitch of my constant whining.  It even caused my friend  to change his sexual orientation thus leaving his fiances dreams of a fairytale wedding in shambles".

Ffs.. <shakes fist>

I would have liked to see more names of games that might be put out of their misery in next 1 or 2 years.  That includes big titles like AOC and WAR.

There is a HUGE market for good, solid, stable, bugfree MMOs.  The thing is... There are few around.

MMOs have only so much to do with FUN.  Part of playing MMO is about the comunity and the progression of the character.  Its also very hard considering that Distance from server has HUGE impact on gameplay of many of these games (if the fun part is taken to FPS like games).  Then ofc... these games are played at times when internet traffic is peaking and that effects the quality of gameplay alot. 

So far only one developer has been able to build and maintain a top quality MMO.  WOW isn't perfect but it has the key components in place from really high quality control down to good bandwith control to give players top quality gameplay.  Thats something that alot of the other MMOS can not deliver. 

Originally posted by Khaunshar

While not a bad read, I would have hoped for something with a bit more... bite. This entry is basically a better-worded long forum post of the kind that we have seen a lot in recent months and years. Why not list a few candidates? Why not go out on a limb and say in your opinion, which hopefully is somewhat informed, Game X and Y should die, while Game Z would have deserved to live? Which MMOs were killed by marketing, which by bad design, which were cut short in the last months, released too early, or forced a late change of direction?

Your 2 examples are sound, but there plenty more. There are also several different reasons why MMOs get killed off.

I think this topic has a lot more to offer yet.

I agree 100%, this seemed to be written in a hurry.

Love the picture you pick for this article for the homepage. Old Yeller really fits the article.

Here's some quote from Old Yeller that would work for MMOs:

[Travis has asked how he can tell if a creature has hydrophobia]
Burn Sanderson: You can't hardly tell at first, not till they get to the point of slobbering and staggering around. When you see a critter in that fix, you know for sure. But you want to watch for others that ain't that far along. Now, you take a bobcat or a fox. You know they'll run if you give 'em the chance. But when one don't run, or maybe makes fight at you, why, you shoot him and shoot him quick. After he's bitten you, it's too late.

(Ol' Yeller's gone rabid and Mama's holding a shotgun)
Travis: No mama! Mama: There's no hope for him now. He's sufferin'. You know we gotta do it. Travis: I know Mama... But he was my dog... I'll do it.

[You know what happens next]

HEY... why didn't you touch on the converse as counterpoint... E&B which was put down far too early.....

just a thought... don't want to write your next article for you or nuthin'...

I didn't even read teh article. I just came by to say that putting 'Old Yeller' on the cover of an article about putting MMOs out of their misery made me LOL pretty twisted, but funny as hell!

Originally posted by Vagelisp 

But while i have almost every kind of tool to create, test, optimize  and receive feedback from my users, mmo devs behave like they have nothing when it comes to a way that will relief them from the tremendous problems that design and implementation of massive interactions create and instead of using precoded frameworks they spend several years re-inventing the wheel which actually has nothing to do with the fun factor of the game itself.

They do use licenced engines and tools for quite some time, like Unreal Engine (Lineage), CryEngine (AION) or Hero Engine (SW:TOR). Some have specialized tools for the MMO environment (like the Hero Engine), others are strong for other purposes but miss special MMO tools. Some companies also share tools and engine for their games (Age of Conan & Anarchy Online, card games in SOE's titles). As very complex pieces of software, however, there is no way around lots of custom code.

As a side note on SWG:  Star Wars Galaxies is anyway no Star Wars game and never was. Anything remotely 'star warsy' is outnumbered 3720 to 1 by misplaced items, anachronisms and purple mandalorian armours that it's probably better to be not a Star Wars fan to enjoy the game. That means, your one and only Star Wars game slot is free for SW:TOR anyway.

Originally posted by Keogh

Garrett,

Geez.... why did you guys have to use a picture of Ol' Yeller? It made me sad as soon as I saw that.

Same here!

That was the first (and really only) movie that made me cry.  Like a baby, I did.
I still can't even think about it.

Originally posted by ab29x

Originally posted by garrett

Hah! Old Yeller wasnt me.

Likely you can thank Evan for that....it made me laugh and say geezus at the same time.

 

THE MOUSE PICTURE ROCKS!  HAHAHA that has unlimited uses!

 

Do you have a sick sense of humor or an office pool to see how many times someone whines about the NGE?

Seriously, It's like a sport to these guys to see who can't get over it the longest.

 

Did you see that one post?:

"THE NGE RUINED MY LIFE! my wife's life, my co workers life, and my dog died.  He walked in front of a car because he went def from the frequency pitch of my constant whining.  It even caused my friend  to change his sexual orientation thus leaving his fiances dreams of a fairytale wedding in shambles".

 

Ffs.. <shakes fist>

 

 

 

 

 

Do you now, or have you ever worked for SOE?...<evil grin>  While I'd not consider myself one of the zealots, I still remember the NGE with a sense of loathing and disgust.  How people could be that damn blind to how bone headed the idea was, completely escapes me. One would have thought that someone over there would have said the immortal words You Simply Can't Do That! Oh well, time to move on before I really start to rant.

Originally posted by ab29x

Originally posted by garrett

Hah! Old Yeller wasnt me.

Likely you can thank Evan for that....it made me laugh and say geezus at the same time.

 

THE MOUSE PICTURE ROCKS!  HAHAHA that has unlimited uses!

 

Do you have a sick sense of humor or an office pool to see how many times someone whines about the NGE?

Seriously, It's like a sport to these guys to see who can't get over it the longest.

 

Did you see that one post?:

"THE NGE RUINED MY LIFE! my wife's life, my co workers life, and my dog died.  He walked in front of a car because he went def from the frequency pitch of my constant whining.  It even caused my friend  to change his sexual orientation thus leaving his fiances dreams of a fairytale wedding in shambles".

 

Ffs.. <shakes fist>

 

 

 

 

 

I agree ...i witnessed some prety bad decisions playing FFXI,but  i never cried about it nor did i dwell on them.taking melee out of a rangers hands was lame IMO,jealous players caused that change,nerfing Dragoon and SAmurai was lameagain jealous players.Nerfing 2h damage and tp again lame ,obvious jealous 1h users thought their little toothpick weapon should have the same damage as a slow wielding huge sword.Sure i did not like any of it,but i lived with it .if i thought change was made for the better of the game,then even more so i accept it,if change was made just because others cry their class is nerfed or too weak,then i draw the line.

SOE was forced into changes for SWG because of tons of complaints.They made changes for the worse?who is to say?possibly so,but you know what ,someone had to make a move and they did,life goes on.I come and go from games all the time,i have seen tons of bumbling mistakes,but it's my choice ,i move on from that game if it gets too bad.

The ONLY time i encourage people to stay away from other games ,is if i think the developer is crooked and running a shotty operation.Like example..supporting RMT,botting,other cheats.If servers are unplayable,if the game locks up and crashes all the time.If they claim to be actively removing RMT ,yet load up Game Guard,they are lying.When you see a game claim thousands of banned accounts,yet you the player notice no change at all,they are again lying.When a game like SRO allows millions of bots to login illegally,yet the legit players can ONLY login by purchasing item mall gear,it is a crooked operation,stay away.If a developer runs a shotty charge system,or allows their servers to be hacked,it is not a game worth playing.

One thing SWG had going for it was a sense of accomplishment and things to target for.If the ONLY reason i log into a game ,is to worry about that next level,then the game has no merit.