Originally posted by timmay805

Did u watch the trailer???? What I am trying to say is there is a different between going out and killing 10 boars versus actual characters that have that kind of immersion in the game itself. Yeah the quest might be go slay 10 boars, but the fell of it will be way different. Take for example the quest from the walkthru. That quest will be different depending on whch flashpoint option you choose, whether you are in a group or solo, etc etc

Why does everyone want to argue. If you don't like a game go hang it in your games forum jeez.

 

Have to agree, its not that fact that its go kill 10 something/go kill 10 something. at least you know WHY your going and killing 10 things and not just clicking past all the text to get to the objective.

I hope this is true.  I was concerned crafting wouldn't even make it in but now possible player housing.  SWEET!

Whee, cool! Yeah open housing would be best, but even LOTRO like housing would be better than no housing.

Man, I want this game NOW! XD

Originally posted by zaylin

Originally posted by timmay805

Did u watch the trailer???? What I am trying to say is there is a different between going out and killing 10 boars versus actual characters that have that kind of immersion in the game itself. Yeah the quest might be go slay 10 boars, but the fell of it will be way different. Take for example the quest from the walkthru. That quest will be different depending on whch flashpoint option you choose, whether you are in a group or solo, etc etc

Why does everyone want to argue. If you don't like a game go hang it in your games forum jeez.

 

 

Have to agree, its not that fact that its go kill 10 something/go kill 10 something. at least you know WHY your going and killing 10 things and not just clicking past all the text to get to the objective.

I have never seen a game yet where it hasnt devolved into clicking past the text to get to the objective and as for those that think that it will be about infinite choices and unique character development are going to be horribly disappointed be as with all games once people discover that clicking yes, yes, yes, no, no creates a stronger character than clicking yes, yes, yes, no, yes then character development becomes linear.

People can argue until hell freezes over but every MMO is the same people gravitate to the strongest options whether it be classes, crafts or factions it is all the same.

Originally posted by MindTrigger

This is a long post.  All you tl;dr morons can move along to the next post. (or learn to read faster)

While this moron took the time to read your long post (that contains loads of repetition and didnt need to be this long) and I also really like SWG's housing system, I also think that your reasoning doesnt make sense.

There are several problems usually associated with instanced housing in Theme Park games which make them pretty useless for anything other than storage. I'm going to use SWG as an example for this, but that DOES NOT mean I expect this game to be SWG2.  I'm using it for contrast only.

1) Instanced housing takes the homes away from the persistent part of the world, and very few people bother going to them as a result.  In SWG the missions and quests took you through all kinds of player created cities, shops and homes which you could explore. Also see number 3 on this list.

Ive never been taken to a playercity by a mission or quest in SWG. Even terminal missions locations were always outside player cities. The only reason I went to playercities is because of a playervendor, someone asked me to check their decoration or I had my house there.

2) Theme park games do not make 3d representation of most games items that you can use to decorate your home with.  In sandbox games like SWG, you could drop almost ANYTHING you had in your inventory, and use it to create a unique space. SWG literally had 3D models for nearly EVERY item in the game, including crafting materials and crafting sub-components. Even food items could be dropped and arranged on a table top to look like a meal was being served. These food items were the same consumables you used for buffs and heals.  You name it, you could drop it and decorate with it.  Hell, there was an entire crafting line that let you make everything from furniture to plants and candles for home decorating.

Themepark games dont make 3d representation of most game items for decoration purpose? You mean every other game except SWG didnt do that. This has nothing to do with SWG being a sandbox game or not. There is also no reason to assume that SW:TOR wont provide you ways to decorate your house.

3) Due to the Auction House systems in Theme Parks, people usually cannot set up a shop in their homes so they can sell their crafted and looted items. They cannot set up vendors. This also limits traffic to the housing areas.

Bazaar in SWG is an auction house system. And in addition it has player owned vendors. It only needs visitors benig able to visit your (instanced) house. What was your point again? 

4) Decoration is very limited.  You do not have full freedom to place things however you wish and instead have have certain "zones" in your house that are made for specific items (rugs, paint, wall space, small, med, large furniture, etc).  It's very restricting and repetitive and create a large yawn factor very quickly after the initial novelty wears off. SWG allowed you to move the items in any direction, and put them together if you wanted to make a new item.

Now Im really starting to suspect that your post is based on experience with instanced housing in a specific game. You have no reason to believe that SW:TOR will use the exact same system.

5) You cannot set up crafting "stations" and craft in your home.  This takes away another huge motivator to spend time and effort setting it up or even visiting it. When I wanted to craft in SWG I would usually head to my pad, and I would have one of the rooms set up as a crafting area complete with crafting stations and bags full of crafting materials I had purchased or harvested.  Combined with a "store front" in one of your other rooms, it really felt like having a business.

Instanced houses can have crafting stations too. All your points so far have nothing to do with a house being instanced or not.

Please do not bring up the mess that persistent world housing made in SWG. Those were design flaws that can be addressed in development.  SOE learned a lot about what not to do with persistent player housing, and if they did it again, I'm sure it would be much better.

Lotro is probably the main AAA theme park with player housing currently.  Really they are a novelty that most people ignore because they are out of the way and very limited as stated above. As much as I am a fan of player housing, I got bored with mine in Lotro before I even started, and ended up using the house just for the storage it allowed. Even that became a pain because I hated heading clear out to the instanced area just to get things. There wasn't much motivation to do anything else with it. After a while I let the rent lapse and just walked away from it.

Ah, here it is. LOTR. So all instanced housing systems therefore will be like the system used in LOTR. Now I understand your flawed logic. LOTR doesnt have workstations for private homes. LOTR has instanced homes. Therefor instanced homes cant have workstations. LOL 

I spent countless DAYS setting up my homes and shops in SWG.  Game developers forget that this is a form of game play, and many, many people enjoy it.  In fact, I would say that my homes and the time I put into them were one of the things that kept me coming back to the game for three years, not to mention being able to visit other people's spaces.

Since you had such freedom to drop items and design the homes, people would open them up to the public as temples, retreats, museums, libraries and any other kind of structure you can imagine. I once decorated and opened up a "Hunting Lodge" out in the game world, and I regularly received IM's and in game emails from people telling me how cool it was, and how they spent their time using it. I'm sure many other SWG players can relate to this. Some of the shops and malls I visited in that game blew me away.  Decorating these spaces was an art form all it's own, and SWG gave you the tools you needed.

Any shallow theme park housing system will end up being a wasted effort unless they are going to really invest some time into making our homes "sandbox" like.  Hell, this might even be enough for me to try SWTOR.

 I dont expect a system like in SWG. The housing system kept evolving even after the NGE, with new movement and rotation commands. Options to save a blueprint of your house. Options to increase storage space and loads more items to decorate with. Its simply a unique housing system.

But this doesnt mean that instanced housing in a heavily story based MMO cant have other uses besides storage. Crafting in an instanced house is not that odd. COH does it with bases. Even Runes of Magic lets you place crafting stations in the instanced homes. There are probably even more MMORPGS that let you do that.

 

Originally posted by Zapphod

Originally posted by zaylin

Originally posted by timmay805

Did u watch the trailer???? What I am trying to say is there is a different between going out and killing 10 boars versus actual characters that have that kind of immersion in the game itself. Yeah the quest might be go slay 10 boars, but the fell of it will be way different. Take for example the quest from the walkthru. That quest will be different depending on whch flashpoint option you choose, whether you are in a group or solo, etc etc

Why does everyone want to argue. If you don't like a game go hang it in your games forum jeez.

 

 

Have to agree, its not that fact that its go kill 10 something/go kill 10 something. at least you know WHY your going and killing 10 things and not just clicking past all the text to get to the objective.

 

I have never seen a game yet where it hasnt devolved into clicking past the text to get to the objective and as for those that think that it will be about infinite choices and unique character development are going to be horribly disappointed be as with all games once people discover that clicking yes, yes, yes, no, no creates a stronger character than clicking yes, yes, yes, no, yes then character development becomes linear.

People can argue until hell freezes over but every MMO is the same people gravitate to the strongest options whether it be classes, crafts or factions it is all the same.

 

Bollocks. Try playing Baldur's Gate by just clicking past the text. And I dont mean while checking a printed walkthrough. And there are also MMORPGs that use way less of the typical kill x fillerquests. Guild Wars is an example. While you can discuss its a MMO or not, its quests could be used in games that you do call MMORPGs.

It all boils down to the willingness of the developers.

But yes, there is always the player that tries to avoid any form of challenge, no matter if its twitch, strategic or puzzle based. And immediately turns to guides or other forms of handholding. No developer can fight that. Its not their job to tell players how to play their MMO. At most they can have an idea of how they intended for you to play it.

I have a feeling they're going to go with ships as housing.

I just hope its not instanced housing. 

Cool,

I hope Player Housing is a fun and useful feature in TOR.  The Idea  of instanced houseing has been debated for SWG with the many static cities in game.  There are those that argue it would totally kill Player build cities.  The other side is if crafters want the bonues then they will have to join a player city.  I like the idea a casual player could set up shop in an instanced apartment in one of the static cities and then move to a more roomy house if they stick with the game.  Just something to consider.

Originally posted by Nikopol

I have a feeling they're going to go with ships as housing.

I think that would actually be the perfect approach. For the two primary classes, Jedi and Sith, housing doesn't really fit into the genre. Sith would either live in barracks or temples, not own housing, and Jedi would live pretty much anywhere they travel, but not own housing either. Jedi particularly practice detachment from the entanglements of physical life. We do see in the movies that both utilize ships for travel and sometimes domicile.
 

At any rate, it would fit for bounty hunters and smugglers as well and be a great way to implement instanced housing. I hated instanced housing in EQ2, but think it would work here as ships.

Originally posted by silicnsmiley

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by silicnsmiley

I just prefer less loading screens and more seamless fluidity in the realization of the game world. You are more than welcome to like loading screens. Your perogative.

 

I snipped the rest of your comments because they're pointless.

If you want less loading time, then you want houses instanced.  

If you want to be in your house, looking out a crowded metropolis, then every object in your house and every object in every other house has to be downloaded and dynamically updated for every player in the metropolis. 

Further, voice dialog in an MMO is ground breaking.  Housing is tired old hat.  If you want to play house and read text, I'm sure there still plenty of little sandboxing MUDs running around.  Ulitma Online is still kicking.

Full voice is a feature never before seen in an MMO.  And it is the central element to BioWare's first entry into the genre.  If that doesn't float your boat, you're probably not going to like TOR anyway.

Again, your reading comprehension is whacked. I specifically said I want less loading screens, not less loading "time".

As for the voice you keep harping on, I've established I couldn't give a damn about it so please stop droning on and on about it to me. As to your revelation that I might not like TOR because of not caring about voice overs (talk about absurd), again, you've proven that you don't want to understand another's words as they write them. I specifically (which lead to this back and forth) stated that if they do housing in a way I like, and crafting in a way I like, then I'll play the game. No where in there was voice.

You may want to get over yourself in that other people play games for reasons different than your own and your belief that your reasons are somehow superior (which is how you started this back and forth). They aren't. Deal with it.

And on that note, as this back and forth was began on a totally immature slant of my gaming reasons are better than yours, I leave the "last word" to you. Trying to strongarm an understanding that others beliefs, game reasons are just as valid as yours is not my place. In a worldy light, that was your parent's responsibility.

This is very interesting news. If this is non-instanced player housing, I will be very excited and much, much more interested in what else TOR has to offer. If it is instanced housing, I'd rather they not waste their time and put that effort into something else.

Originally posted by someforumguy

Originally posted by Zapphod

Originally posted by zaylin

Originally posted by timmay805

Did u watch the trailer???? What I am trying to say is there is a different between going out and killing 10 boars versus actual characters that have that kind of immersion in the game itself. Yeah the quest might be go slay 10 boars, but the fell of it will be way different. Take for example the quest from the walkthru. That quest will be different depending on whch flashpoint option you choose, whether you are in a group or solo, etc etc

Why does everyone want to argue. If you don't like a game go hang it in your games forum jeez.

 

 

Have to agree, its not that fact that its go kill 10 something/go kill 10 something. at least you know WHY your going and killing 10 things and not just clicking past all the text to get to the objective.

 

I have never seen a game yet where it hasnt devolved into clicking past the text to get to the objective and as for those that think that it will be about infinite choices and unique character development are going to be horribly disappointed be as with all games once people discover that clicking yes, yes, yes, no, no creates a stronger character than clicking yes, yes, yes, no, yes then character development becomes linear.

People can argue until hell freezes over but every MMO is the same people gravitate to the strongest options whether it be classes, crafts or factions it is all the same.

 

Bollocks. Try playing Baldur's Gate by just clicking past the text. And I dont mean while checking a printed walkthrough. And there are also MMORPGs that use way less of the typical kill x fillerquests. Guild Wars is an example. While you can discuss its a MMO or not, its quests could be used in games that you do call MMORPGs.

It all boils down to the willingness of the developers.

But yes, there is always the player that tries to avoid any form of challenge, no matter if its twitch, strategic or puzzle based. And immediately turns to guides or other forms of handholding. No developer can fight that. Its not their job to tell players how to play their MMO. At most they can have an idea of how they intended for you to play it.

Not to mention it will be more story driven,witch im really excited about. I'm tired of the ok lets see how fast i can go form 0-80 in. Im at the point I want to ENJOY the games content and story (one of the reasons i returned to FF11). Dont get me wrong end game is hella fun, but its also the journey getting there ,and stories of the misshaps,wipes and sillness while playing that makes a game fun.

Doh well on the subject at hand I think any sort of player housing will be cool, Open would be the coolest of course..instanced not  bad,a place to call home,but at least put in permissions so freinds and guildes can enjoy a nice warm bowl of soup >.0.

Some people (IMO) are getting so critical about mmos/games that it seems to be more stressful than fun. I remember the good old days of playing super mario bro. 3 for 32 hours when it first came out >.0. Toe jam and earl, etc etc.. I dont fall into hype anymore, dont get my hopes up or demand that a game have this or that... I do get excited though to see new info and gameplay video about a game im intrested in playing,that show me what the game is going to be like...and well if its got fun and community in mind Im on board...sorry this is probally not the thread fer that paragraph ..Coffee coffee coffee!!!.

In regards to player housing, it would obviously be a great addition. Preferably not instanced but even then.  So many people see the voice acting/story and assume these professional developers are focussing a solely single player experience for a mmorpg.  Bioware and this very well funded project know exactly what sort of features a mmorpg needs to keep fans playing for years.

In response to comments that voice acting won't make "killing 10 boars" any more fun or exciting, couldn't be more wrong.  Using myself as an example, I never do quests.  Walls of text that are boring and uninteresting.  However those ingame cinemantics and story will definitely make me want to do every possible quest in the game.  So there you go.

Originally posted by Herithius

In regards to player housing, it would obviously be a great addition. Preferably not instanced but even then.  So many people see the voice acting/story and assume these professional developers are focussing a solely single player experience for a mmorpg.  Bioware and this very well funded project know exactly what sort of features a mmorpg needs to keep fans playing for years.

In response to comments that voice acting won't make "killing 10 boars" any more fun or exciting, couldn't be more wrong.  Using myself as an example, I never do quests.  Walls of text that are boring and uninteresting.  However those ingame cinemantics and story will definitely make me want to do every possible quest in the game.  So there you go.

Yep :)

For the clueless, instanced housing is useless as pointed out very well in several posts in this thread.  It basically becomes an extra storage area and that is about it.  Having experienced being part of a very active city in SWG, I can tell you it adds depth and life to the game.

So for you who feel it clutters up the game, you are the ones who play for a short while, then find something to complain about and leave.  Developers should ignore you as you are short term headcount at best.

So if their housing is instanced it is just another yawn.

Originally posted by Ozmodan

For the clueless, instanced housing is useless as pointed out very well in several posts in this thread.  It basically becomes an extra storage area and that is about it.  Having experienced being part of a very active city in SWG, I can tell you it adds depth and life to the game.

So for you who feel it clutters up the game, you are the ones who play for a short while, then find something to complain about and leave.  Developers should ignore you as you are short term headcount at best.

So if their housing is instanced it is just another yawn.

I agree.. some of my fondest memories of MMOs are of my friends and I in our massive player cities or houses in games like UO, DAOC, etc. It certainly made me feel like I was part of a virtual world. :)

But I do beleive that they will make it similar to FFXI's mog house (instanced, but you can invite people). They've said that their game isn't a simulation in any way, when asked about housing and their economy in a few interviews. Personally I would rather an instance than nothing at all, though.

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by silicnsmiley

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by silicnsmiley

I just prefer less loading screens and more seamless fluidity in the realization of the game world. You are more than welcome to like loading screens. Your perogative.

 

I snipped the rest of your comments because they're pointless.

If you want less loading time, then you want houses instanced.  

If you want to be in your house, looking out a crowded metropolis, then every object in your house and every object in every other house has to be downloaded and dynamically updated for every player in the metropolis. 

Further, voice dialog in an MMO is ground breaking.  Housing is tired old hat.  If you want to play house and read text, I'm sure there still plenty of little sandboxing MUDs running around.  Ulitma Online is still kicking.

Full voice is a feature never before seen in an MMO.  And it is the central element to BioWare's first entry into the genre.  If that doesn't float your boat, you're probably not going to like TOR anyway.

Again, your reading comprehension is whacked. I specifically said I want less loading screens, not less loading "time".

As for the voice you keep harping on, I've established I couldn't give a damn about it so please stop droning on and on about it to me. As to your revelation that I might not like TOR because of not caring about voice overs (talk about absurd), again, you've proven that you don't want to understand another's words as they write them. I specifically (which lead to this back and forth) stated that if they do housing in a way I like, and crafting in a way I like, then I'll play the game. No where in there was voice.

You may want to get over yourself in that other people play games for reasons different than your own and your belief that your reasons are somehow superior (which is how you started this back and forth). They aren't. Deal with it.

And on that note, as this back and forth was began on a totally immature slant of my gaming reasons are better than yours, I leave the "last word" to you. Trying to strongarm an understanding that others beliefs, game reasons are just as valid as yours is not my place. In a worldy light, that was your parent's responsibility.

I don't care why you play games. 

In the discussion of BioWare's Star Wars The Old Republic, voice and story are BioWare's central selling points.

It is you who seems to have a comprehension issue.  The comment made about housing was in an interview at GamesCon.  The response from BioWare was of the nature, "Yeah, we have that" in response to a four or five part question that happened to included housing.

BioWare has made many statements on the use of instancing and it seems that it will be a fairly heavily instanced game.  People who apparently follow the news on the game much closer than you seem to think that housing is going to be KOTOR ship style.

Your style of gameplay requires massive resources on the client side.  To populate housing in a large area that is not instanced has a major impact on every person who plays the game, regardless of whether or not they want to play virtual house.  BioWare has stated many times that their choice of stylized graphics is done in part to reduced the load on the client.  It seems counter-intuitive to use a simplified graphic technique that requires less processor and memory and then turn around and bog down every major hub with billions of dynamic player objects.

I do not wish to detract from your personal creativity.  I just don't want it forced on every other play who doesn't care what your house looks like.  That's where instanced housing comes in.  That way, the rest of us don't have to load every object in your house into memory or store the contents of your house on our hard drives just so you can sit in your kitchen and watch the virtual world go by.

Anyone who has played Horizons and seen the right way to do player housing. Conversely anyone who played SWG has seen the wrong way to do player housing.

Of course the housing is going to be instanced. With the possible subscriber numbers this game is likely to draw the only viable choice is instanced housing. Otherwise they would need 200 servers each with 50 worlds were people could build houses. Half of all houses started will be abandoned anyone and if they had open world housing they would have to come up with a system for dealing with abandoned buildings. Instances is way faster, way cheaper, way easier and just makes too much sense to not do.

"I do not wish to detract from your personal creativity. I just don't want it forced on every other play who doesn't care what your house looks like. That's where instanced housing comes in. That way, the rest of us don't have to load every object in your house into memory or store the contents of your house on our hard drives just so you can sit in your kitchen and watch the virtual world go by."

You really need to get out of the 90's.  You are discussing programming that went out of style then.  Localized housing should not detract from your performance in a MMO today unless it is staffed by those who have no clue how to code a MMO.  Even UO fixed that problem years ago.   Even SWG did not have that kind of problem.  Isn't stating a problem that is no longer a problem kind of silly?