What kind of idiot assumes that games are the only ones who use sex to sell? Beer commercials anyone? Hell look at what shape LIPSTICK is and think about that the next time you ladies are rubbing it on your lips @@. Notice the shape of mens cologne and other items? Every time you walk into a store you get bombarded with sexual stimulus because it sells. 

Computer games are strangely retro in this. Computer games have always been much more conservative in many aspects, strangely so. Like storytelling or character concepts. While in the movies and books we have very succesful launches which tread new pathes and sorta adapted to the modern world, games still cling much to 1950ies stereotypes. See "The Witcher". The typical, sorta disgruntled macho man, screwing every woman he can, still staying with the cool distance, never attached, everytime above everything. You get the idea.

Actually I don't believe the "booby prize" really sells so much more. Are there really a substantial portion of gamers who buy games based on cover pics? Hard to believe, I must admit.

First, personally I don't like games to be over-sexualized in any way. I don't think porn and games make a good mix, so to speak. And second, I think it is a matter of balance. It perpetuates a strangely old fashioned concept of women as passive objects of male wantoness, and thus a kind of old fashioned idea. It's often bizarre to see those games filled with women all with perfect slim bodies, perfect doll faces and uber boobs, and male chars either square jawed and square chest or ugly as the night, or actually both.  can understand, games are dreams and people want to see beautiful things. But why are WOW female chars beautiful (relatively to their art) and males are all ugly and square-chested?

It is this imbalance which irritates me. I prefer game characters to have character, and not to be some doll-model-like stereotype. I find that rather boring to see games all filled with barbie-dolls.

Call me conservative, but I don't think a society should be so over-sexualized with nudeness, boobs and whatnot everywhere you look. Let quality sell, and keep that lockerroom pics to your lockers and bedrooms.

Was reading through the article but a couple things to point out.  First in the Guild Wars category, Guild Wars also has a strong female lead role, while Eve (the bondage chick, as you so tactfully put it) isn't necessarily that lead role, she does play a major role in the gameplay and lore.  Devona was the lead female role, followed closely by Cynn (both can be seen here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94_U8byqTBg )  This was the same with Lineage 2, which you neglected to mention.  Also you did not mention the role between the female characters and their cover art.  Yes the box art is there to entice, but not just men.  Give men the clevage, but give women the cover as a sign of empowerment.

Also if you are going to speak on this compare the role of women in the game to box art, look at holistically; not fixated on what facet.  You did mention how EQ and EQ2 don't fixate on that anymore, but neglected GW2.  As well leaving out many other games that push the limits even further with the gameplay, like APB.  I think your article was thus very one sided, and it saddens me to think there is still this kind of gender bias on the side of journalists.

Originally posted by Kainis

I'm just waiting for someone to say they don't look at box-art boobies, but pick up the box for the feature list instead.

I do.

I'm a 50+ male and, at my age, you appreciate the female form in a different way than a drooling 20-something boy. Besides, mature males don't use the word 'boobies' -- we refer to them as breasts. Anyone over 30 still using adolescent words SHOULD be ridiculed.

If you want to date attractive young women, you only have to do one thing -- turn 40! I don't know what it is -- maybe women see younger men as too immature -- but I have dated more women in their 20's as a middle-aged man than I ever did when I was their age. I think we treat women with more respect and that could be part of it also.

So, you keep the word 'boobies' little boys and I'll keep the dates.

Originally posted by badgerer

Good news lads! 

That giant phallic compensation of a sword you raided for for 3 months is actually more desirable to women than the real thing!

wtf! that must be the replay ive ever wanted to see! badgerer, you made my day :D

Edit: this is for you www.youtube.com/watch

hehemmehemmm

someone said "boobies"

Since female gamers are increasing in number, the gaming industry should find ways to market to both genders.

Let's face it they're everywhere we can't fight them so we might as well join them,

just like the picture of the beautiful kitty i found

Originally posted by cfurlin

Originally posted by Kainis

I'm just waiting for someone to say they don't look at box-art boobies, but pick up the box for the feature list instead.

 

I do.

I'm a 50+ male and, at my age, you appreciate the female form in a different way than a drooling 20-something boy. Besides, mature males don't use the word 'boobies' -- we refer to them as breasts. Anyone over 30 still using adolescent words SHOULD be ridiculed.

If you want to date attractive young women, you only have to do one thing -- turn 40! I don't know what it is -- maybe women see younger men as too immature -- but I have dated more women in their 20's as a middle-aged man than I ever did when I was their age. I think we treat women with more respect and that could be part of it also.

So, you keep the word 'boobies' little boys and I'll keep the dates.

 

Haha!

Boobies....BOOBIES...boobs...boooooooooobbbbbbbbbssss...

Lighten up dude. Your self-inflated image of yourself and your drivel about how 'mature' men don't use nicknames for parts of the female anotomy is idiotic. They do and they will continue to do so and I've seen it a thousand times.

Oh, and as a note, I'm 35 and I still use nicknames for both the male and the female anotomy and your other point that 50+ something treat women with more respect is useless drivel aswell. Age got nothing to do with that at all.

I drove a cab for a number of years and the most perverted, sick and rude people where people in their 50's. Really great when you're 20 something and get alot of horny 50 year old widows in the backseat, or that drunken 50 something man who tells you how useless you are sitting on your ass earning money and how you trying to fool him off his hardearned money. Right, so cabdrivers money aint hard-earned? You have to talk with the shit you drive from a to b so yeah, I think cabdrivers money is quite hard-earned.

The polite people where the 20 somethings. Ask any cabdriver you can see. They will tell you the same story. The older people got, the more obnoxious they got when drunk, or even tipsy. Sometimes they didn't even have had a drink, they where just pissed off for some reason and decided to let the cabdriver get the heat.

Once had a bank director, yes a man who make a few millions a year take a shit back in a cab. Ofcourse he denied paying for the cleanup so the cabdriver had to call the police. The rude moron had by the time the police got there taken a shower and denied the whole thing when the police was at the door. Luckilly for the cabdriver, his wife woke up and asked when he came home from the nightclub and what all the noise was. Only then he broke down and admitted the whole thing. This is a guy around 50 years old, so yeah. Age got nothing to do with your maturity, sense or politeness. On the contrary it seems to get worse the older you get.

Got a few more stories about 50 something being an ass to cabbies, people around them and even authoritites but thats for another thread.

Originally posted by slask777

 

Haha!

Boobies....BOOBIES...boobs...boooooooooobbbbbbbbbssss...

Lighten up dude. Your self-inflated image of yourself and your drivel about how 'mature' men don't use nicknames for parts of the female anotomy is idiotic. They do and they will continue to do so and I've seen it a thousand times.

Oh, and as a note, I'm 35 and I still use nicknames for both the male and the female anotomy and your other point that 50+ something treat women with more respect is useless drivel aswell. Age got nothing to do with that at all.

I drove a cab for a number of years and the most perverted, sick and rude people where people in their 50's. Really great when you're 20 something and get alot of horny 50 year old widows in the backseat, or that drunken 50 something man who tells you how useless you are sitting on your ass earning money and how you trying to fool him off his hardearned money. Right, so cabdrivers money aint hard-earned? You have to talk with the shit you drive from a to b so yeah, I think cabdrivers money is quite hard-earned.

The polite people where the 20 somethings. Ask any cabdriver you can see. They will tell you the same story. The older people got, the more obnoxious they got when drunk, or even tipsy. Sometimes they didn't even have had a drink, they where just pissed off for some reason and decided to let the cabdriver get the heat.

When I said mature males, I meant mature in action and thinking, not age. But I can see where you would misunderstand since you are not one of them...

Originally posted by cfurlin

Originally posted by slask777

 

Haha!

Boobies....BOOBIES...boobs...boooooooooobbbbbbbbbssss...

Lighten up dude. Your self-inflated image of yourself and your drivel about how 'mature' men don't use nicknames for parts of the female anotomy is idiotic. They do and they will continue to do so and I've seen it a thousand times.

Oh, and as a note, I'm 35 and I still use nicknames for both the male and the female anotomy and your other point that 50+ something treat women with more respect is useless drivel aswell. Age got nothing to do with that at all.

I drove a cab for a number of years and the most perverted, sick and rude people where people in their 50's. Really great when you're 20 something and get alot of horny 50 year old widows in the backseat, or that drunken 50 something man who tells you how useless you are sitting on your ass earning money and how you trying to fool him off his hardearned money. Right, so cabdrivers money aint hard-earned? You have to talk with the shit you drive from a to b so yeah, I think cabdrivers money is quite hard-earned.

The polite people where the 20 somethings. Ask any cabdriver you can see. They will tell you the same story. The older people got, the more obnoxious they got when drunk, or even tipsy. Sometimes they didn't even have had a drink, they where just pissed off for some reason and decided to let the cabdriver get the heat.

 

When I said mature males, I meant mature in action and thinking, not age. But I can see where you would misunderstand since you are not one of them...

Then word your posts better. My impression after reading it was excactly what I wrote up there, that somehow middleaged men where better than people younger than them. Now that's a joke if I ever heard one.

Nice read.  Honestly, I like excellent gameplay.  I like attractive women.  I like inspired graphics/art.  If a developer can get them all working together, I'll happily buy.  Nice breasts won't sell a game to me, but if I had to choose whether to leave them out or put them in...please put them in.  Ideally it won't be so tawdry that it alienates my female counterparts, and with luck they get a few base cravings met themselves...  It's really all about how it's done.  Nothing wrong or juvenile with enjoying the human body in a totally overt, sexual way.  It's fun - and isn't that the point of gaming?  

Originally posted by astrob0y

Originally posted by badgerer

Good news lads! 

That giant phallic compensation of a sword you raided for for 3 months is actually more desirable to women than the real thing!

 

wtf! that must be the replay ive ever wanted to see! badgerer, you made my day :D

 

Edit: this is for you www.youtube.com/watch

I don't know what that vid has to do with this thread but thanks, I loved it :)

I made stop-motion cartoons for several years for tv, but nothing as full on as that. Here's mine:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvvId0ocp8Q

 Heh, anyone that thinks a game marketing department doesnt use the female form to sell their game is just kidding themself, horribly. And in concolusion...

Hooray for boobies! :D
 

I freely admit I'm being a bit hypocritical here.
But being female myself, looking at row after row of "boobie art" on game shelves does get rather exasperating after a while...

My REAL beef however with game companies (and indeed most media) is the blatant one-sidedness of it all.

Sex sells. Duh.
Isn't that great? Hooray for boobies and all that jazz...
But with all the "hot babe" obsession game companies have, they seem to forget that women buy games too.
Put "hot babes" of BOTH genders in there!

Luckily, there's a lot more Japanese game companies willing to cater to the female crowd.
Ever heard of the word "Bishounen"?
Ever wonder why so many of the men in Japanese games are half naked and look so effeminate?
Because sex sells to women as well as men.
Don't believe me?
Do a search for the term "yaoi", or look up "yaoi-con" in the states.
Most of the fanatical fans of that particular genre are women.
Homosexuality doesn't even really have to have anything to do with it, but most male gamers dismiss anything that doesn't look "rugged" enough as "gay", so pretty much any effeminate characters are usually pegged in there with that kind of stuff.

Unfortunately, western game companies are kind of dumb when it comes to marketing games to women.
They seriously need to catch up with their overseas counterparts.
There's very few female "fan-service" oriented characters in western games.
(something I personally attribute to the aforementioned willingness for male gamers to label it "homosexual")

I won't complain about stuff like the DOA jiggle-fest, so long as I get Dante bare-chested in his leather (quasi) bondage trench coat, The Prince of Persia's insanity-strip-show, or Testament from Guilty Gear :D

Keep the boobs, and add more bare chests without boobs.
Add in more skin tight pants and/or bare legs for both genders as well.
I'm serious! :P

What's good for the goose is good for the gander!

Originally posted by slask777

Originally posted by cfurlin

Originally posted by slask777

 

Haha!

Boobies....BOOBIES...boobs...boooooooooobbbbbbbbbssss...

Lighten up dude. Your self-inflated image of yourself and your drivel about how 'mature' men don't use nicknames for parts of the female anotomy is idiotic. They do and they will continue to do so and I've seen it a thousand times.

Oh, and as a note, I'm 35 and I still use nicknames for both the male and the female anotomy and your other point that 50+ something treat women with more respect is useless drivel aswell. Age got nothing to do with that at all.

I drove a cab for a number of years and the most perverted, sick and rude people where people in their 50's. Really great when you're 20 something and get alot of horny 50 year old widows in the backseat, or that drunken 50 something man who tells you how useless you are sitting on your ass earning money and how you trying to fool him off his hardearned money. Right, so cabdrivers money aint hard-earned? You have to talk with the shit you drive from a to b so yeah, I think cabdrivers money is quite hard-earned.

The polite people where the 20 somethings. Ask any cabdriver you can see. They will tell you the same story. The older people got, the more obnoxious they got when drunk, or even tipsy. Sometimes they didn't even have had a drink, they where just pissed off for some reason and decided to let the cabdriver get the heat.

 

When I said mature males, I meant mature in action and thinking, not age. But I can see where you would misunderstand since you are not one of them...

 

Then word your posts better. My impression after reading it was excactly what I wrote up there, that somehow middleaged men where better than people younger than them. Now that's a joke if I ever heard one.

Word my posts better? Its not my fault you don't understand the difference between age and maturity. Increase your vocabulary, Scooter.

Originally posted by cfurlin

Originally posted by slask777

Originally posted by cfurlin

Originally posted by slask777

 

Haha!

Boobies....BOOBIES...boobs...boooooooooobbbbbbbbbssss...

Lighten up dude. Your self-inflated image of yourself and your drivel about how 'mature' men don't use nicknames for parts of the female anotomy is idiotic. They do and they will continue to do so and I've seen it a thousand times.

Oh, and as a note, I'm 35 and I still use nicknames for both the male and the female anotomy and your other point that 50+ something treat women with more respect is useless drivel aswell. Age got nothing to do with that at all.

I drove a cab for a number of years and the most perverted, sick and rude people where people in their 50's. Really great when you're 20 something and get alot of horny 50 year old widows in the backseat, or that drunken 50 something man who tells you how useless you are sitting on your ass earning money and how you trying to fool him off his hardearned money. Right, so cabdrivers money aint hard-earned? You have to talk with the shit you drive from a to b so yeah, I think cabdrivers money is quite hard-earned.

The polite people where the 20 somethings. Ask any cabdriver you can see. They will tell you the same story. The older people got, the more obnoxious they got when drunk, or even tipsy. Sometimes they didn't even have had a drink, they where just pissed off for some reason and decided to let the cabdriver get the heat.

 

When I said mature males, I meant mature in action and thinking, not age. But I can see where you would misunderstand since you are not one of them...

 

Then word your posts better. My impression after reading it was excactly what I wrote up there, that somehow middleaged men where better than people younger than them. Now that's a joke if I ever heard one.

 

Word my posts better? Its not my fault you don't understand the difference between age and maturity. Increase your vocabulary, Scooter.

Now that's a risible idea if I ever heard one. Happy???

English not my first language anyway...Not even my second, heh...

---

Originally posted by Mandarista
I freely admit I'm being a bit hypocritical here.
But being female myself, looking at row after row of "boobie art" on game shelves does get rather exasperating after a while...
My REAL beef however with game companies (and indeed most media) is the blatant one-sidedness of it all.
Sex sells. Duh.
Isn't that great? Hooray for boobies and all that jazz...
But with all the "hot babe" obsession game companies have, they seem to forget that women buy games too.
Put "hot babes" of BOTH genders in there!
Luckily, there's a lot more Japanese game companies willing to cater to the female crowd.
Ever heard of the word "Bishounen"?
Ever wonder why so many of the men in Japanese games are half naked and look so effeminate?
Because sex sells to women as well as men.
Don't believe me?
Do a search for the term "yaoi", or look up "yaoi-con" in the states.
Most of the fanatical fans of that particular genre are women.
Homosexuality doesn't even really have to have anything to do with it, but most male gamers dismiss anything that doesn't look "rugged" enough as "gay", so pretty much any effeminate characters are usually pegged in there with that kind of stuff.
Unfortunately, western game companies are kind of dumb when it comes to marketing games to women.
They seriously need to catch up with their overseas counterparts.
There's very few female "fan-service" oriented characters in western games.
(something I personally attribute to the aforementioned willingness for male gamers to label it "homosexual")
I won't complain about stuff like the DOA jiggle-fest, so long as I get Dante bare-chested in his leather (quasi) bondage trench coat, The Prince of Persia's insanity-strip-show, or Testament from Guilty Gear :D
Keep the boobs, and add more bare chests without boobs.
Add in more skin tight pants and/or bare legs for both genders as well.
I'm serious! :P

What's good for the goose is good for the gander!

---

YES PLEASE! I can appreciate that men like their boobs; I like mine, and I like to think men do too. But I would like to see more of this in games these days. Especially with the surge of people in this genre that WoW caused, there are more women in this world with the men. I wholeheartedly believe that most women will stop and look at a game with a gorgeous man with his chest bare and gleaming in the light just as easily as a man will stop and look at a game with a gorgeous woman with her chest…mostly bare and gleaming in the light.
But we live in the world we live in, I suppose. Like other people have said, a man revealing himself might make me look, but it does not rob me of my good sense. I would not buy a game just for the cover. I would need to know, or at least believe, that the game inside is worthy of my attentions. I would hate to be caught by the clever art and then buy a game that I did not enjoy.

I love this topic in all its complexity. 

Being a hetero male that tries to spend as much time as possible with the opposite sex, I also find the female reaction to cleavage-marketing interesting.  I could say that female sexuality is more complex, or just admit to my ignorance.  Just because I like women and spend time with them doesn't mean I understand them.  Easiest to say that women's tastes are harder to pin down.  What they think is sexy or attractive is almost abstract at times, while cleavage is a reliable eye-catcher for men.  I know women that buy into that marketing because they want to be associated with sexy women, or some such...

Some women like Cosmo, which uses cleavage marketing like no other.  Others hate it as immature drivel.

One of my old roommates used to complain on the EQ forums that there wasn't enough sausage or beefcake in the game while a female half-elf in full plate looked like she was wearing a thong and a bustier.  The responses to her posts were also interesting.

My current girl is busy experimenting with EQ2 outfits for her Barbarian to reveal as much of his skin as possible.  She won't let me delete my woodelf because "he's so cute."  But she hates AOC because the smallest breast size acheiveable on the slider is a C-cup.  She refused to wear certain armor in LotRO because of the tight-leather-crotch appearence.

I get tired of the chainmail-bikini-armor mentality too.  Armor should look like armor, which is not flattering.

Though I freely admit to liking cleavage.  It will certainly get me to pick up the box in the video store, but I will try to look for something more.  Just cuz you're easy on the eye don't mean I'll buy you dinner, darlin'.

Sanya, you really do suck at writting articles, this is the second idiotic segemnt i've read from you. So what , women , like asses and men like tits, it has been that way since the bipeds started walking the earth, it has been that way since the start of cinema, seriously need to just stop writting mmorpg articles and do the wweather or something that utualizes no subjective writting input, for real..

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Sanya, if you think that Vulcan image is something the ST license holders wouldn't approve, well, sister, you don't know jack about Star Trek.

From the Original Series:

To Enterprise (and trust me, there are some shots of T'Pol here that are way more revealing; search "mirror T'Pol...and yes, they are shots from the series)

 

and we'd be remiss to forget Voyager's Seven:

 

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm a red-blooded heterosexual male. I'm not going to find offense with any of those pictures there. That said, an attractive woman on the cover of a product won't blind me to the flaws of said product. Understandable the vast majority of my gender doesn't work that way. If anything putting a scantily clad woman on a video game to me is a warning that what's in the box isn't all it's cracked up to be most times.

Actually, the original Star Trek was forced to abide by the studio's very strict moral guidelines.  In truth, they wanted to push the limits a lot more than they were able to.  For example, they were stuck with rules preventing a woman's belly button from being seen.  (Maybe lint gathers there?)  The underside of breasts was equally taboo.

All of this ultimately lead to one of the earliest ST:NG episodes (Justice, if I remember right) where the costume designer seemingly delighted in breaking EVERY taboo from the original series.  Among other things, the women wore outfits that revealed both belly buttons and the undersides of their breasts.  

Anyway, thanks Sonya for another great read.  This one was a hoot!

Originally posted by Mandarista

Ever wonder why so many of the men in Japanese games are half naked and look so effeminate?
 

Homosexuality doesn't even really have to have anything to do with it, but most male gamers dismiss anything that doesn't look "rugged" enough as "gay", so pretty much any effeminate characters are usually pegged in there with that kind of stuff.

Unfortunately for you most heterosexual males that look at a box and see a male character that looks vaguely homosexual will be leary of  buying a game due to their "insecurity". So having 2 seperate boxes would be a cool, but having a hot chick, and a feminine looking guy on the same box, well that would probably be bad for business.

---

Originally posted by aurick

---

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Sanya, if you think that Vulcan image is something the ST license holders wouldn't approve, well, sister, you don't know jack about Star Trek.
From the Original Series:

To Enterprise (and trust me, there are some shots of T'Pol here that are way more revealing; search "mirror T'Pol...and yes, they are shots from the series)

and we'd be remiss to forget Voyager's Seven:

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm a red-blooded heterosexual male. I'm not going to find offense with any of those pictures there. That said, an attractive woman on the cover of a product won't blind me to the flaws of said product. Understandable the vast majority of my gender doesn't work that way. If anything putting a scantily clad woman on a video game to me is a warning that what's in the box isn't all it's cracked up to be most times.

---

Actually, the original Star Trek was forced to abide by the studio's very strict moral guidelines. In truth, they wanted to push the limits a lot more than they were able to. For example, they were stuck with rules preventing a woman's belly button from being seen. (Maybe lint gathers there?) The underside of breasts was equally taboo.
All of this ultimately lead to one of the earliest ST:NG episodes (Justice, if I remember right) where the costume designer seemingly delighted in breaking EVERY taboo from the original series. Among other things, the women wore outfits that revealed both belly buttons and the undersides of their breasts.

Anyway, thanks Sonya for another great read. This one was a hoot!

---

I am not sure about you, but I see belly buttons in the original series in the post that you quoted before you said that there were no belly buttons in the original series. I am not sure you have watched enough Star Trek.

Solareus: Wow. I am not usually nice, but there is no reason to be that scathing to a person doing their job. The article was much more well-written that most of the stuff here, so just because the content is not what you are the most interested in is no reason to behave that way. There are many people writing articles about things of this nature that everyone already knows. This, however, was a direct response to people from a previous article claiming that this was not the case. Sanya just proved them wrong, and she did a good job. So you should either shut up or pay attention to what actually happens before you talk.

Originally posted by solareus

Sanya, you really do suck at writting articles, this is the second idiotic segemnt i've read from you. So what , women , like asses and men like tits, it has been that way since the bipeds started walking the earth, it has been that way since the start of cinema, seriously need to just stop writting mmorpg articles and do the wweather or something that utualizes no subjective writting input, for real..

 

Dude... have you actually READ her articles?

Insightful, witty, out-of-the-box writing style is how many on this forum have come to know Sanya.

Btw, before you criticize someone for their writing, take a good hard look at your own. Sheesh!

Them GUNs are set to stun