I am a WoW player from the first day. I love this game. But i see more and more a chance to the game. I always liked the idea that for the best loot you had to "work" in raids, do your best..know tactics. But then they dropped the 40 man, they made raids were you just have to blast your way trough, like Naxx..and now..emblems of conquest everywere, with a daily hc that gives triumph.

I see new level 80 doing a couple ToC normals and then do a 4 day hc farm and end up getting gear that took me a long time and patients to get in raids...now there are fully geared but real bad playing toons running around cousing wipes and confusion.

I love the history and stories of WoW. I play the game for that 2. Maybe not important to some, but i liked the storyline and kinda played like my toons were really helping the world and be part of the story.

and now the next expansion...what is this..a dragon capable to rip apart continents, and we still waiting for the lichking..a sissy lichking now compared to the next expasion boss..it made my drive to go on, to just go to the lichking raids away. I mean..whats the point now. The lichking is obious a minor threat to the world..so im just thinking "what is the point to us still being here in northrend". All the work and raids will just be for nothing...so what that you get T9 or T9.5. The first blue drop on level 83 will be better.

To me it looks like Blizzard is driving away all the "serious" players away just to keep hold of there younger or lootcrazy paying clients. I have seen hardcore raiding guilds being cut in half because ppl inside did not like how easy it became to get endgear. I can not think of another reason for all this..but i feel pretty bad about it, and i dont think i can keep playing another 6 or so months until the expansion..just doing mindless dailys and hc's and leveling up alt number 6.

"Serious players" ? I always tought people play games for fun to to be "serious"

Answer its very simple , money and marketing , they make game easier to drive in more players and they succed , even if they lost how much 1-2% of "hardcore" playerbase they sill get 10-20% more instead.

I hope no one think game companies make games for fun , they make them to make money , thats why a lot of them now copy WoW , they trying to get piece of Blizzard "MMO cake".

You sir are taking games way too seriously!

"Serious" players are playing a game to get money, you can't call yourself serious when you're getting frustrated when items are no longer a challenge and the "average" gamer can go in and grab them.

I say this to every complaining WoW player - If you're willing to write a massive post about how you're sick of it - stop playing it, enjoy life and or a different game.

Note: This post is worded like I'm having a go at you - I'm not, just saying whats, what.

Originally posted by aretina

"Serious players" ? I always tought people play games for fun to to be "serious"

Answer its very simple , money and marketing , they make game easier to drive in more players and they succed , even if they lost how much 1-2% of "hardcore" playerbase they sill get 10-20% more instead.

I hopne no one thinks game companies make games for fun , they make them to make money , thats why a lot of them now copy WoW , they trying to get piece of Blizzard "MMO cake".

 

Bingo. This is the right answer.

MMOs are similar to feature films in that they have to appeal to the mass market to make big money. No one is going to make big-budget films which only appeal to art school grads and Mensa members.

I'm confused.

You say you are a WoW player from the "first day"

You say you dont want to grind gear now in WotLK because the new gear @83 will be better?

Err its a gear reset. If you've been playing since "day one" as you claim you'd be used to this since it happened in tBC and WotLK and will again happen in the new xpac. So whats your problem?

Are they dumbing down WoW? Sure they are. They want to keep a larger market share. I left WoW after tBC just before Sunwwell hit. Back then I could see that Blizzards plan was to do constant gear-resets to keep the punters playing. I'm just suprised that its taken you (if you have been playing from day 1) the prospect of a THIRD reset to realize. Even back in the BT days it was obvious to me that raids were getting easier .. welcome to reality :)

Now I've nothing against WoW, it does what it does in a very polished way. Constant gear-resets I could live with ... the raids getting easier and easier I could'ent. IMO if gear is all that people want then give the masses a way to "grind" out the best gear in a way that suits them. (Small group or solo content that can be repeated over and over for barter items for example) Allow them to do this mind-numbing crap over and over for thier shiney gear. Dumbing down raids to a degree that { Mod Edit: Language } anyone can do them? Not for me. Raids are supposed to be hard (/e Warm glow remembering pre-tBC Naxx) not boring.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by aretina

"Serious players" ? I always tought people play games for fun to to be "serious"

Answer its very simple , money and marketing , they make game easier to drive in more players and they succed , even if they lost how much 1-2% of "hardcore" playerbase they sill get 10-20% more instead.

I hopne no one thinks game companies make games for fun , they make them to make money , thats why a lot of them now copy WoW , they trying to get piece of Blizzard "MMO cake".

 

 

Bingo. This is the right answer.

MMOs are similar to feature films in that they have to appeal to the mass market to make big money. No one is going to make big-budget films which only appeal to art school grads and Mensa members.

Bad example. Just compare The Dark Knight to Transformers 2/G.I. Joe. A good film does not have to be made for art school grads and Mensa members, nor does it have to be dumbed down to have mass appeal. Both Transformers 2 and G.I. Joe are just special effect extravaganzas with very little "movie" in them - whereas other recent films like The Dark Knight and Iron Man provide a lot more solid experience that you can enjoy even if you are not a rapid fanboi.

Originally posted by thexrated 

Bad example. Just compare The Dark Knight to Transformers 2/G.I. Joe. A good film does not have to be made for art school grads and Mensa members, nor does it have to be dumbed down to have mass appeal. Both Transformers 2 and G.I. Joe are just special effect extravaganzas with very little "movie" in them - whereas other recent films like The Dark Knight and Iron Man provide a lot more solid experience that you can enjoy even if you are not a rapid fanboi.

"Dark Knight' and 'Iron Man' were both good movies, but they were not in the least bit challenging or inspired film-making.

you wanna "work" ?

do hardmodes and leave the other players alone!

I feel this expansion pack is needed because of how easy Blizzard has made the game with the recent changes.  Anyone with a level 80 can easily grind out badges for super gear in just a few short days.  This change is going to burn players out rather quickly I feel.  With this expansion pack, I feel that Blizzard is going to unleash their swang song upon the WoW players out there.  Hopefully they release this early enough in 2010 so that they can maximize subscriptions and reatin players who otherwise may find themselves venturing into other MMO game worlds.

Here's what you have to do  Believe all the hype about a game like let's say, Mabinogi.  Download it, play it and then you get the sinking feeling of wasting your time on another crappy game.  Then maybe you can go back and play wow and realize how great a game it really is.  Right now I am trying Neo Steam, which is good so far.  You just have to take a break once in a while to know what a great company Blizz is.  Of course they are in the market to make money, we all are.  I can't wait till the next expansion just  see the new stuff.  Any (serious) gamers out there don't just try one game and stay there for ten years, your not a serious gamer if you play wow all day everyday, that's called a addict lol.  Now get up, go take a shower, make a cup of coffee and then go to the game list on this site and try something new for a bit.  There are a ton of free games to try.  You will be ok, don't worry, I know the sunshine hurts your eyes, and you will probably get the shakes from not being in Northrend, but it will be ok.  OH, AND HEY BLIZZ (KNOCKS ON SCREEN)  INSTEAD OF WOW EXPANSIONS, WHEN THE HELL YOU GONNA DO A STARCRAFT MMO FOR BOLLOCKS SAKE?!?!?!

I wanna roll a BattleCruiser!

Whenever a new expansion comes up, people ask:
"Why struggle for new equipment? There will be better equipment soon."

One reply is:
"Because it's fun to struggle for new equipment? And if it ain't fun, why doing it in the first place?"
 

Another point of view would be:
Blizzard has two options. a) making more expansions and keep adding stuff to the game. Or b) stop doing that.

Now, in case of a), there will be sooner or later ALWAYS be better equipment available. So why struggle for the current crap at all? So don't fight for your equipment but wait it out until better one shows up. And then wait until better one shows up, and wait some more. Or maybe simply play another game entirely instead of spending your time wait. Or spend your time with raiding?

In case of b) you'll soon have achieved everything there is to achieve and then it's "game over", so just skip those struggles for nothing and stop right now.

Regarding the level 83 gear will phase out what you having now,  its call progression dude. You should know when your vanilla gears becomes obsolete when TBC hits.

If blizz dont provide better gear than players will also cry that the game is boring. So your gear, no matter how hard to get will get obsolete someday.

As Onyxia is not the last enemy, Illidan is not, neither is Arthas, nor will Deathwind. Stories will continue to flow, and more and more powerful foes will continue to raise untill Blizz finally say stop.

Its part of games dude, and like the poster a few post above me said, play the game to have fun. My guidies whom love to raid is having fun right now, so enjoy.

Till one day you dont, than its time to quit...

Originally posted by dm22

I am a WoW player from the first day. I love this game. But i see more and more a chance to the game. I always liked the idea that for the best loot you had to "work" in raids, do your best..know tactics. But then they dropped the 40 man, they made raids were you just have to blast your way trough, like Naxx..and now..emblems of conquest everywere, with a daily hc that gives triumph.

I see new level 80 doing a couple ToC normals and then do a 4 day hc farm and end up getting gear that took me a long time and patients to get in raids...now there are fully geared but real bad playing toons running around cousing wipes and confusion.

I love the history and stories of WoW. I play the game for that 2. Maybe not important to some, but i liked the storyline and kinda played like my toons were really helping the world and be part of the story.

and now the next expansion...what is this..a dragon capable to rip apart continents, and we still waiting for the lichking..a sissy lichking now compared to the next expasion boss..it made my drive to go on, to just go to the lichking raids away. I mean..whats the point now. The lichking is obious a minor threat to the world..so im just thinking "what is the point to us still being here in northrend". All the work and raids will just be for nothing...so what that you get T9 or T9.5. The first blue drop on level 83 will be better.

To me it looks like Blizzard is driving away all the "serious" players away just to keep hold of there younger or lootcrazy paying clients. I have seen hardcore raiding guilds being cut in half because ppl inside did not like how easy it became to get endgear. I can not think of another reason for all this..but i feel pretty bad about it, and i dont think i can keep playing another 6 or so months until the expansion..just doing mindless dailys and hc's and leveling up alt number 6.

WOW is a MMO aimed at younger crowds anyway, everything about WOW is childish. There was nothing adult about its appeal from the day of its release IMHO. They're just catering WOW to the majority of their audience which are kids.

I agree on the story part. Blizzard kinda butchered the storyline in WoW, they had a great thing going with the past Warcraft series. I got so sucked into it that I basically read everything how the story started and how it has evolved up to Warcraft 3. But now, important key characters like Kel' Thuzard, Arthas and Illidan are just in their base waiting for 25 people to come and kill them and I always found their huge size quite weird. As of now, the story is just sitting still, nothing important has happened that we didn't know since Warcraft 3 except for the new expansion setting but that seems to have no connection to the main event as of now.

One valid concern of the OP is that with each expansion, Blizzard is making all previous content obsolete. So in a way they are not really adding content, they are only changing the flag holder of "hardest content available" with each new raid dungeon.

I remember when BWL was the end game in WoW; it really meant something to have slain Nefarious. Then Naxx came and everybody moved there, making BWL a secondary experience.

TBC blew everything apart, over-simplified the game to a degree where every one could eventually get everything, etc, etc, with WoTLK I guess the same thing happened (never bothered with that, stopped way before that).

Blizzard has failed, in all these years of WoW's existence, to find a truly innovative way of adding to the experience of its MMO, instead of simply swapping older content with new.

Originally posted by IAmMMO

Originally posted by dm22

I am a WoW player from the first day. I love this game. But i see more and more a chance to the game. I always liked the idea that for the best loot you had to "work" in raids, do your best..know tactics. But then they dropped the 40 man, they made raids were you just have to blast your way trough, like Naxx..and now..emblems of conquest everywere, with a daily hc that gives triumph.

I see new level 80 doing a couple ToC normals and then do a 4 day hc farm and end up getting gear that took me a long time and patients to get in raids...now there are fully geared but real bad playing toons running around cousing wipes and confusion.

I love the history and stories of WoW. I play the game for that 2. Maybe not important to some, but i liked the storyline and kinda played like my toons were really helping the world and be part of the story.

and now the next expansion...what is this..a dragon capable to rip apart continents, and we still waiting for the lichking..a sissy lichking now compared to the next expasion boss..it made my drive to go on, to just go to the lichking raids away. I mean..whats the point now. The lichking is obious a minor threat to the world..so im just thinking "what is the point to us still being here in northrend". All the work and raids will just be for nothing...so what that you get T9 or T9.5. The first blue drop on level 83 will be better.

To me it looks like Blizzard is driving away all the "serious" players away just to keep hold of there younger or lootcrazy paying clients. I have seen hardcore raiding guilds being cut in half because ppl inside did not like how easy it became to get endgear. I can not think of another reason for all this..but i feel pretty bad about it, and i dont think i can keep playing another 6 or so months until the expansion..just doing mindless dailys and hc's and leveling up alt number 6.

WOW is a MMO aimed at younger crowds anyway, everything about WOW is childish. There was nothing adult about its appeal from the day of its release IMHO. They're just catering WOW to the majority of their audience which are kids.

 

MMOs are not played by kids as a majority. Young adults are the majority by a long shot. That said what WOW did well is cater to everyone and anyone. Theres no secret to this. I see no problem with WOW taking decent ideas from other MMOs and make them better. It s just smart really.

http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/gateway_demographics.html

Funny because all the WoW veterans I've spoken to and at Blizzcon all said they can't wait. The Old world has needed a revamp for many years now and finally Blizzard gives us what we want. It'll bring players into the old world, making the zones more populated and gives a chance for new players to be able to find more groups.

If you don't do this then all the old content just dies and noone plays it anymore and no new players come. The mmo just dies like Everquest where it's top heavy and all the old zones are dead and just suck.

Just sounds to me like you're looking for a reason to hate on the game.

+ The Lich King is coming.

Is it so hard to get a spell checker?  Trying to read that morass you call a post is not worth anyone's time.

It's real simple.

95% of the people playing WoW today still haven't seen the inside of Ulduar. 90% never saw the inside of the Black Temple before WotLK was released. It's a huge waste of development time and money when the vast majority of your customers cannot enjoy the new content you create for them.

Blizzard is doing something very smart here: Every time they release a new tougher raid and up the ante on the gear levels, they make it easier for casuals to get into yesterdays toughest dungeon.

Hardcores will always be one step ahead of casuals and get their big raiding challenge and bragging rights, but casuals will eventually be more likely to be able to experience the content eventually.

Originally posted by rikilii

Blizzard is doing something very smart here: Every time they release a new tougher raid and up the ante on the gear levels, they make it easier for casuals to get into yesterdays toughest dungeon.

 

The problem is, there is not point in going in those dungeons anymore; how many players are going to bother with Blackwing Lair now? Or Naxxramas?

I am not a hardcore WoW raider, in fact I cannot stand raiding, but do it to get the goodgear so I can kill Alliance easier in the BG's.    ^_^  With that being said I understand where the OP is coming from, but at the same time have to step back and look at the average Joe/Jill gamer that will never get a chance to do a H/Nax raid or Ulduar or a 25 man HToC.   Why?  Because there are not to many players that can give up 8+ hrs to do a raid of that level.    I have been on a couple of raids and I can tell you it sucks.    You do a lot of waiting first of all as the group gets together. Then there is the discussion about what will be done and how to do it.    Then there is the preparing for it.   That takes a good hour of just sitting there listening to the group leader on vent go over what is going to go down and listening to others debate about the best course of action to situation.  

One of my friends and a guild she runs with gets together on weekends and runs raids.   Sometimes they start like around noon and do not get done until like 2am!  That is just crazy.   But that is what it takes I guess to get the best gear in WoW.  

Yeah these guys take raiding very seriously.  

So I can understand where the OP is coming from.    They do work hard to get that gear and it would suck to find that all that hard work is for naught if down the road an average player can go into the same dungeon with 5 people and get the same gear.   Then again...I can understand where Blizzard and the average gamer are at in this mess.   Blizzard is trying to balance things so that the average/casual gamer can feel like they are participating on the same level as the people that can play for unGodly hours to obtain such awesome gear and it is awesome compared to the trash that drops off most MoBs.  

What really annoys me though is that unless you have good gear to start you're never going to see the inside of Nax or Ulduar or 25man HToC because it takes good gear to get the stats to get the required DPS or ability to tank or the ability to heal x amount and these raiders of the high end levels of dungeon crawling will not even consider you capable of tagging along unless you meet very stringent requirments.   Like yor crit chance, your AP and your etc, etc, etc...it's crazy.   I see spams all the time in general chat for Dalaran as guilds advertise that they are looking for dedicated players with good gear that meet such and such requirements and if you do not meet them - well then you're SOL.

So the sword cuts both ways.

Blizzard has to do something so that the hardcore crowd is kept happy and the casual player is kept happy and that is one thing I would not like to have to do.   It must truly suck to be Blizzard in this regard.  

As for me - I just get into a raid when I can, but for the most part I am a BG whore and kill Alliance with or without the good gear.   ^_^  

Originally posted by Galadourn

Originally posted by rikilii

Blizzard is doing something very smart here: Every time they release a new tougher raid and up the ante on the gear levels, they make it easier for casuals to get into yesterdays toughest dungeon.

 

 

The problem is, there is not point in going in those dungeons anymore; how many players are going to bother with Blackwing Lair now? Or Naxxramas?

I don't do it for gear... I don't it cause I enjoy the lore and I enjoy seeing things from Warcraft 3 come to life inside the game. I play because I have fun doing it and this is what I hate because in Star Wars Galaxies I did content because it was Star Wars. You wern't rewarded but other than a badge or a painting or something saying you did it. Why does everything have to be about getting something? Can't you just play because it is fun?

Originally posted by dm22

I am a WoW player from the first day. I love this game. But i see more and more a chance to the game. I always liked the idea that for the best loot you had to "work" in raids, do your best..know tactics. But then they dropped the 40 man, they made raids were you just have to blast your way trough, like Naxx..and now..emblems of conquest everywere, with a daily hc that gives triumph.

I see new level 80 doing a couple ToC normals and then do a 4 day hc farm and end up getting gear that took me a long time and patients to get in raids...now there are fully geared but real bad playing toons running around cousing wipes and confusion.

I love the history and stories of WoW. I play the game for that 2. Maybe not important to some, but i liked the storyline and kinda played like my toons were really helping the world and be part of the story.

and now the next expansion...what is this..a dragon capable to rip apart continents, and we still waiting for the lichking..a sissy lichking now compared to the next expasion boss..it made my drive to go on, to just go to the lichking raids away. I mean..whats the point now. The lichking is obious a minor threat to the world..so im just thinking "what is the point to us still being here in northrend". All the work and raids will just be for nothing...so what that you get T9 or T9.5. The first blue drop on level 83 will be better.

To me it looks like Blizzard is driving away all the "serious" players away just to keep hold of there younger or lootcrazy paying clients. I have seen hardcore raiding guilds being cut in half because ppl inside did not like how easy it became to get endgear. I can not think of another reason for all this..but i feel pretty bad about it, and i dont think i can keep playing another 6 or so months until the expansion..just doing mindless dailys and hc's and leveling up alt number 6.

Interesting point of view.   Almost the exact opposite of mine.   You feel that Blizzard has gone too far in allowing players to get raid gear with a non-raid alternative.

Personally, I feel they have not gone far enough, at least, not far enough to bring me back to the game.    I stiil am forced to group for those heroic dailies just to slowly, slowly build up those tokens to get one piece of gear.    If blizzard ever makes it so that I can get them solo, I might consier returning.

I like grouping, but I utterly despise having to group for anything.

Originally posted by dm22

I am a WoW player from the first day. I love this game. But i see more and more a chance to the game. I always liked the idea that for the best loot you had to "work" in raids, do your best..know tactics. But then they dropped the 40 man, they made raids were you just have to blast your way trough, like Naxx..and now..emblems of conquest everywere, with a daily hc that gives triumph.

I see new level 80 doing a couple ToC normals and then do a 4 day hc farm and end up getting gear that took me a long time and patients to get in raids...now there are fully geared but real bad playing toons running around cousing wipes and confusion.

I love the history and stories of WoW. I play the game for that 2. Maybe not important to some, but i liked the storyline and kinda played like my toons were really helping the world and be part of the story.

and now the next expansion...what is this..a dragon capable to rip apart continents, and we still waiting for the lichking..a sissy lichking now compared to the next expasion boss..it made my drive to go on, to just go to the lichking raids away. I mean..whats the point now. The lichking is obious a minor threat to the world..so im just thinking "what is the point to us still being here in northrend". All the work and raids will just be for nothing...so what that you get T9 or T9.5. The first blue drop on level 83 will be better.

To me it looks like Blizzard is driving away all the "serious" players away just to keep hold of there younger or lootcrazy paying clients. I have seen hardcore raiding guilds being cut in half because ppl inside did not like how easy it became to get endgear. I can not think of another reason for all this..but i feel pretty bad about it, and i dont think i can keep playing another 6 or so months until the expansion..just doing mindless dailys and hc's and leveling up alt number 6.

Well face reality. Casual is the trend going forward. It makes ZERO sense that only a few % of their players would ever see the raids. And you do need T8.5 to go to T9 raids so expect the previous tier stuff will be easy to get.

Personally i found it a very smart move. Lots of people are happy about it. There is a way to get good gear now for those NOT in the hardcore raiding guild. If you go to wow-heroes, or just walk around with gear score, there are lots of casual people and it is good that they get SOME gear so have motivation to play.

There is nothing wrong that hardcore raiding guilds are cut in half. They are a very minority anyway. I see lots more PUG raids, casual raiding guilds ... more people having fun.

Personally I am NOT a hardcore raider and i wont spend a few days a week just to raid (probbaly not oppose to weekend raiding) and Blizzard is making the game fun for people like me.

If you want achievement, you can always go for hard modes.