The bottom line is it's just silly to have two separate games like WoW does.

1.Solo level.
2.Raid

It's just stupid, seriously people, it's stupid. If raid content is so fun why not have it at lower levels, constantly and consistently?
If leveling is so fun, why not kill the character when they hit max level so they can level again?

Just think about it for a moment.

My solution to end game.

1.Have a story generator and a dynamic world, so you have infinitely changing content.

2.Scalable, challenging raid content available at all levels without instancing. So a group of 1, 2, 5, 20, 200, or 5000 could “raid”. And they would have a very challenging and rewarding experience.

3.Optional hero classes one can switch to at max level. These characters can take on 20 non-hero max level characters. But they have limited lives. About 5. These classes would be optional.

This is gives you raid content at all level, dynamic content, and for those that do the hero-perma-death route it gives you re-leveling (which some of us like to do).

Problem solved. Next question?

(1) Skill based characters so that new players can be somewhat useful alongside older players

(2) "Wide not high" skilltree, so that after a certain point advancement comes from versatility rather than raw power.

Originally posted by Malcanis

(1) Skill based characters so that new players can be somewhat useful alongside older players

(2) "Wide not high" skilltree, so that after a certain point advancement comes from versatility rather than raw power.

Skill or level, it is the same if the power difference between start and end is too high.

What is end game? :-D
I believe the only reasonable solution is to have none.

End game means something where the game stops, which is something completely stupid for online game with persistent world.

To have MMO atractive it has to be endless, thus no end game.

Originally posted by Gdemami

What is end game? :-D
I believe the only reasonable solution is to have none.

End game means something where the game stops, which is something completely stupid for online game with persistent world.

To have MMO atractive it has to be endless, thus no end game.

End-game is a misnomer. The game doesn't "end"; end-game is simply the game at the end of your character's progression. In a level based game it is max level; simply, end-game is what you do once you hit max level. End-game evolves through content: new raids, new dungeons, new loot, expansions, so it never stops (unless the devs do).

---

Originally posted by Comnitus

End-game is a misnomer. The game doesn't "end"; end-game is simply the game at the end of your character's progression. In a level based game it is max level; simply, end-game is what you do once you hit max level. End-game evolves through content: new raids, new dungeons, new loot, expansions, so it never stops (unless the devs do). 

---

Originally posted by kalaren

Originally posted by Malcanis

(1) Skill based characters so that new players can be somewhat useful alongside older players

(2) "Wide not high" skilltree, so that after a certain point advancement comes from versatility rather than raw power.

 

Skill or level, it is the same if the power difference between start and end is too high.

So you read all the way to point 2, right?

Originally posted by GreenChaos

The bottom line is it's just silly to have two separate games like WoW does.

1.Solo level.
2.Raid

It's just stupid, seriously people, it's stupid. If raid content is so fun why not have it at lower levels, constantly and consistently?
If leveling is so fun, why not kill the character when they hit max level so they can level again?

Just think about it for a moment.

My solution to end game.

1.Have a story generator and a dynamic world, so you have infinitely changing content.

2.Scalable, challenging raid content available at all levels without instancing. So a group of 1, 2, 5, 20, 200, or 5000 could “raid”. And they would have a very challenging and rewarding experience.

3.Optional hero classes one can switch to at max level. These characters can take on 20 non-hero max level characters. But they have limited lives. About 5. These classes would be optional.

This is gives you raid content at all level, dynamic content, and for those that do the hero-perma-death route it gives you re-leveling (which some of us like to do).

Problem solved. Next question?

A "raid" is a group of groups.

So if your game has grouping with groups of 6, a raid is a group of 6, plus another group of 2 to 6, in one "raid".

It makes no sense to say a raid of one or two. That is not a raid.

If your game has a group max of 8, then a raid is a group of 8 plus another group of 2-8, or more groups of 2-8 combined.

It is combined groups into one larger super group.

There is no such thing as a raid of two players.

Scalable = solo game.

If you can do it solo, there's no reason to raid.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by GreenChaos

The bottom line is it's just silly to have two separate games like WoW does.

1.Solo level.
2.Raid

It's just stupid, seriously people, it's stupid. If raid content is so fun why not have it at lower levels, constantly and consistently?
If leveling is so fun, why not kill the character when they hit max level so they can level again?

Just think about it for a moment.

My solution to end game.

1.Have a story generator and a dynamic world, so you have infinitely changing content.

2.Scalable, challenging raid content available at all levels without instancing. So a group of 1, 2, 5, 20, 200, or 5000 could “raid”. And they would have a very challenging and rewarding experience.

3.Optional hero classes one can switch to at max level. These characters can take on 20 non-hero max level characters. But they have limited lives. About 5. These classes would be optional.

This is gives you raid content at all level, dynamic content, and for those that do the hero-perma-death route it gives you re-leveling (which some of us like to do).

Problem solved. Next question?

 

A "raid" is a group of groups.

So if your game has grouping with groups of 6, a raid is a group of 6, plus another group of 2 to 6, in one "raid".

It makes no sense to say a raid of one or two. That is not a raid.

If your game has a group max of 8, then a raid is a group of 8 plus another group of 2-8, or more groups of 2-8 combined.

It is combined groups into one larger super group.

There is no such thing as a raid of two players.

Scalable = solo game.

If you can do it solo, there's no reason to raid.

CoX has scalable mission, and it's one of the most group friendly games out there, because of the scalability, so your point is totally false.

I put the word raid in quotes for a reason, letting you know I was misusing the word a bit.  I am talking about challenging content.  As and far as scalable = solo, not if the rewards scaled with the size of the group.

Best solution is to get rid of the item-ladder and just make all "end-game" activities count towards some secondary character progression that takes place after the player has hit the level cap. Let people achieve meaningful progression via whatever end-game activity most appeals to them rather than trying to "push" them in the direction of specific content by means of a carrot onna stick.

 Here's the question you need to answer:

Why waste time low-level raiding when you can grind to the highest level and do the hardest raids?

Originally posted by GreenChaos

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by GreenChaos

The bottom line is it's just silly to have two separate games like WoW does.

1.Solo level.
2.Raid

It's just stupid, seriously people, it's stupid. If raid content is so fun why not have it at lower levels, constantly and consistently?
If leveling is so fun, why not kill the character when they hit max level so they can level again?

Just think about it for a moment.

My solution to end game.

1.Have a story generator and a dynamic world, so you have infinitely changing content.

2.Scalable, challenging raid content available at all levels without instancing. So a group of 1, 2, 5, 20, 200, or 5000 could “raid”. And they would have a very challenging and rewarding experience.

3.Optional hero classes one can switch to at max level. These characters can take on 20 non-hero max level characters. But they have limited lives. About 5. These classes would be optional.

This is gives you raid content at all level, dynamic content, and for those that do the hero-perma-death route it gives you re-leveling (which some of us like to do).

Problem solved. Next question?

 

A "raid" is a group of groups.

So if your game has grouping with groups of 6, a raid is a group of 6, plus another group of 2 to 6, in one "raid".

It makes no sense to say a raid of one or two. That is not a raid.

If your game has a group max of 8, then a raid is a group of 8 plus another group of 2-8, or more groups of 2-8 combined.

It is combined groups into one larger super group.

There is no such thing as a raid of two players.

Scalable = solo game.

If you can do it solo, there's no reason to raid.

 

 

CoX has scalable mission, and it's one of the most group friendly games out there, because of the scalability, so your point is totally false.

I put the word raid in quotes for a reason, letting you know I was misusing the word a bit.  I am talking about challenging content.  As and far as scalable = solo, not if the rewards scaled with the size of the group.

 

There is a difference between "group friendly" and a good grouping game.

CoH is very group friendly, but not a good grouping game.

DAoC is not very group friendly necessarily, but when originally released a great grouping game.

I want good grouping games, not necessarily "group friendly" games.

I got an endgame for ya. Death. The End.

Originally posted by Comnitus

End-game is a misnomer. The game doesn't "end"; end-game is simply the game at the end of your character's progression. In a level based game it is max level; simply, end-game is what you do once you hit max level. End-game evolves through content: new raids, new dungeons, new loot, expansions, so it never stops (unless the devs do).

 

 

 

You know you have used semi-colons when you should have used commas and you have used colons when you should have used semi-colons.

I would say PvP is a viable end game as well

Upon reaching maximum level, characters should perform one final grand quest, then retire forever.

Every character the player has retired would grant a passive bonus to all of the player's other characters, based on the retired character's class and their final quest.

Screw the end game.

I joined my first raid in DDO at lvl 8 (with level cap 20). Raiding is a great way of levleing in that game so people do it. Make soloing more inconvinent and make grouping more convinient so people will group.

The reason people rush to end game is because thats where it is always easy to find people to form groups/raids. During leveling everybody is spread out so its hard to find people to group with and much easier just to level alone (but more boring)

Originally posted by Malcanis

(1) Skill based characters so that new players can be somewhat useful alongside older players

(2) "Wide not high" skilltree, so that after a certain point advancement comes from versatility rather than raw power.

Yes, this fixes it, but doesn't work for all types of games.  I'd enjoy such a game, but not all players want a lateral progression game (vertical progression games are wildly popular for a reason.)  Even I want a vertical progression game sometimes.

I largely agree with GreenChaos.  I want fun from level 1.

WOW's way of doing things isn't without advantages:

• "Endgame" is yet another dangling carrot.
• Changing up gameplay ("varying the pattern" as I call it) is crucial for a game to remain interesting for a long time.

But I'd prefer fun from level 1; the advantages of the WOW method aren't better than the advantages of the other method.

The trick to the "story generator" idea is that a random mission generator simply isn't enough for the hundreds of hours of content you need in an MMO.

After 400 hours of running quests in WOW the entire game becomes different and there's all-new stuff to learn.  After 400 hours of running mission generators in any existing MMORPG I've played, I think I'd have become a quivering lump of flesh on the ground.

So the total solution to the problem is more than just random mission generators providing randomized stuff, but to actually trickle in completely new gameplay mechanics as players level to keep things fresh.  And ideally to provide a way for veteran players to not have to spend tons of time in the lowbie content with their alts, after you've shown them how much more awesome your game is with all the cool stuff at higher levels.  (which really is my concession that you'll never get the full fun at level 1...not without your game being stupidly inaccessible to players.)

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

There is no such thing as a raid of two players.

Technically incorrect. You can make a raid with just two people.

Originally posted by bonobotheory

Upon reaching maximum level, characters should perform one final grand quest, then retire forever.

Every character the player has retired would grant a passive bonus to all of the player's other characters, based on the retired character's class and their final quest.

Screw the end game.

I have been thinking about something similar for quite a while. Have maxed characters retire to a 'Hall of Heroes', which players could view to see their accomplishments and what players own them. They could come out of retirement for special heroic events and when the level cap goes up. To encourage alts, the account could get some special perks to aid leveling of other characters.

Originally posted by GreenChaos

1.Have a story generator and a dynamic world, so you have infinitely changing content.

I had an idea similar to this... and I am going to make a new thread about it, to get more opinions on it...

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/248711/My-EndGame-PVP-MMO-Idea-TRUE-Persistent-Everchanging-World-Your-thoughts.html

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by GreenChaos

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by GreenChaos

The bottom line is it's just silly to have two separate games like WoW does.

1.Solo level.
2.Raid

It's just stupid, seriously people, it's stupid. If raid content is so fun why not have it at lower levels, constantly and consistently?
If leveling is so fun, why not kill the character when they hit max level so they can level again?

Just think about it for a moment.

My solution to end game.

1.Have a story generator and a dynamic world, so you have infinitely changing content.

2.Scalable, challenging raid content available at all levels without instancing. So a group of 1, 2, 5, 20, 200, or 5000 could “raid”. And they would have a very challenging and rewarding experience.

3.Optional hero classes one can switch to at max level. These characters can take on 20 non-hero max level characters. But they have limited lives. About 5. These classes would be optional.

This is gives you raid content at all level, dynamic content, and for those that do the hero-perma-death route it gives you re-leveling (which some of us like to do).

Problem solved. Next question?

 

A "raid" is a group of groups.

So if your game has grouping with groups of 6, a raid is a group of 6, plus another group of 2 to 6, in one "raid".

It makes no sense to say a raid of one or two. That is not a raid.

If your game has a group max of 8, then a raid is a group of 8 plus another group of 2-8, or more groups of 2-8 combined.

It is combined groups into one larger super group.

There is no such thing as a raid of two players.

Scalable = solo game.

If you can do it solo, there's no reason to raid.

 

 

CoX has scalable mission, and it's one of the most group friendly games out there, because of the scalability, so your point is totally false.

I put the word raid in quotes for a reason, letting you know I was misusing the word a bit.  I am talking about challenging content.  As and far as scalable = solo, not if the rewards scaled with the size of the group.

 

 

There is a difference between "group friendly" and a good grouping game.

CoH is very group friendly, but not a good grouping game.

DAoC is not very group friendly necessarily, but when originally released a great grouping game.

I want good grouping games, not necessarily "group friendly" games.

I disagree.  

CoH is very group friendly and a very good grouping game.  The way powersets from different archetypes can mix can change the whole outcome of a battle.  Great group dynamics that makes very interesting and challenging missions.  From running story arcs, to challenging and beating mutliple elite bosses, and arch-villains and missions set on invincible this is a challenge for any group.

The rewards from grouping in terms of xp and coin (influence/infamy/prestige) far outweigh what you can get from soloing.  Especially now with AE - although it has gotten a bit silly with that. 
 

Venge Sunsoar

A story generator will not work in the near future. Stories are not something that can be adaquetly generalized into a function.

People lack the understanding of what an MMORPG really is. Some think it's an RPG like Final Fantasy. Where you play a role defined by a story and reach an 'end game' a point where you can run around the world and farm items, do side quests and get cool unlocks. Before finishing the actual story.

But the truth of it is, MMORPGs are giant sandboxes where you as players get to write your own story. Unfortunately, there is no garentee that you will be the hero of the story. More often then not, you're likely to be an extra lost in the fray. But each day brings new oppertunity and new adventures. A well designed MMORPG will have each action interact with NEW people. As long as there is a definable limit, a quantitative best to gear, level, skill and/or strategy, no matter how long it takes, it WILL be reached (probably by some nolifer). Therefore the goal is to make a game with no definable limit, but instead becomes this constant interaction between players.

Character death/end is not a good option for the reasons that, first not everyone will die at the same time, therefore you lose the sense of accomplishment if your getting owned by some noob because you just rebirthed. Also the journey is too long, most games that 'end' only last a few hours and end for ALL players at the same time for a global restart, you can't just wipe the server every year.

Hero idea, just increases the gap in power. When the gap in power is significant enough, there is no need for skill. Your a hero in an MMORPG not because there is some 'tag' that says your a hero. But your a hero because your damn good at playing your character, and have done things that you have shown to the public as being heroic. (take PvP videos for example).

There is no easy fix to end game, it's all in the design of the game itself. Unfortunately most games out these days have not spent alot of effort in the game design and more effort in content design, which inevitablely gets exhausted.

---

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

---

Originally posted by GreenChaos

The bottom line is it's just silly to have two separate games like WoW does.
1.Solo level.
2.Raid
It's just stupid, seriously people, it's stupid. If raid content is so fun why not have it at lower levels, constantly and consistently?
If leveling is so fun, why not kill the character when they hit max level so they can level again?
Just think about it for a moment.
My solution to end game.
1.Have a story generator and a dynamic world, so you have infinitely changing content.

2.Scalable, challenging raid content available at all levels without instancing. So a group of 1, 2, 5, 20, 200, or 5000 could “raid”. And they would have a very challenging and rewarding experience.

3.Optional hero classes one can switch to at max level. These characters can take on 20 non-hero max level characters. But they have limited lives. About 5. These classes would be optional.
This is gives you raid content at all level, dynamic content, and for those that do the hero-perma-death route it gives you re-leveling (which some of us like to do).
Problem solved. Next question?

---

 
A "raid" is a group of groups.
So if your game has grouping with groups of 6, a raid is a group of 6, plus another group of 2 to 6, in one "raid".
It makes no sense to say a raid of one or two. That is not a raid.
If your game has a group max of 8, then a raid is a group of 8 plus another group of 2-8, or more groups of 2-8 combined.
It is combined groups into one larger super group.
There is no such thing as a raid of two players.
Scalable = solo game.
If you can do it solo, there's no reason to raid.

---

I've done a two-man raid of Zul'Gurub in WoW before. Raid is a verb. It, like any other game jargon, is whatever we say it is. You don't get to define the word and tell us it means what you say it means. What he means, though, is dungeons.

The idea is that one person could go into a dungeon and get an appropriate challenge and reward. It would be very hard for the one person, so they get good rewards. Or 50 people could go in, and have an equally difficult challenge. It's called dynamic instancing. And that's a developer term. We do know what that means. And it's a great idea.

---

Originally posted by NeverForever
A story generator will not work in the near future. Stories are not something that can be adaquetly generalized into a function.
People lack the understanding of what an MMORPG really is. Some think it's an RPG like Final Fantasy. Where you play a role defined by a story and reach an 'end game' a point where you can run around the world and farm items, do side quests and get cool unlocks. Before finishing the actual story.
But the truth of it is, MMORPGs are giant sandboxes where you as players get to write your own story. Unfortunately, there is no garentee that you will be the hero of the story. More often then not, you're likely to be an extra lost in the fray. But each day brings new oppertunity and new adventures. A well designed MMORPG will have each action interact with NEW people. As long as there is a definable limit, a quantitative best to gear, level, skill and/or strategy, no matter how long it takes, it WILL be reached (probably by some nolifer). Therefore the goal is to make a game with no definable limit, but instead becomes this constant interaction between players.
Character death/end is not a good option for the reasons that, first not everyone will die at the same time, therefore you lose the sense of accomplishment if your getting owned by some noob because you just rebirthed. Also the journey is too long, most games that 'end' only last a few hours and end for ALL players at the same time for a global restart, you can't just wipe the server every year.
Hero idea, just increases the gap in power. When the gap in power is significant enough, there is no need for skill. Your a hero in an MMORPG not because there is some 'tag' that says your a hero. But your a hero because your damn good at playing your character, and have done things that you have shown to the public as being heroic. (take PvP videos for example).
There is no easy fix to end game, it's all in the design of the game itself. Unfortunately most games out these days have not spent alot of effort in the game design and more effort in content design, which inevitablely gets exhausted.

---

Firstly, I love love love your handle. Very clever.

Secondly, Your final point is the key. All I would need to enjoy a game is a massive landmass, clever AI and monsters, and some basic story to give me purpose. I don't need a theme park where every interaction with NPCs and every new quest is a scripted event that is the same all the time for everyone. Take WoW, as a prime example. Every single person that plays is "the" hero of the world. Every NPC treats you as a uniquely powerful hero and has you do things that could only ever happen once. The problem with that being, of course, that everyone else also did that unique and heroic thing.

If they just created a large world (and let's face it, people want a large space to play in), and a brilliant game/combat/progression design, many of us wouldn't need incredibly deep stories, especially at first. If you develop a clever game with good ideas, then you can add lore later on, once people are in the world enjoying themselves.

I still don't know why we haven't heard tell of a AAA sandbox (maybe the CCP WoD game). I can't count the number of people I have seen, on several forums, lamenting the lack of a sandbox fun enough to play in.

(Of course I am not counting EVE. I've played EVE, and it's damn near perfect for what it is. But many people, myself included, don't like the setting, or the controls, or any number of things. A walk around fantasy sandbox is what these people I mean want.)