The game world is small.  The zones are large but there are not many of them.  Even though the zones are large, they feel like the devs are trying to shove a whale into a tuna can.  The lack of zones was  voiced early in beta.  I don't recall any type of answer.  I knew then that I probably wasn't going to buy this game at release.  I didn't really care for Monster Island or Lemuria....so the game stops at level 30 for me :)  On the positive side, I do believe that they have other zones completed that they haven't mentioned yet.  So I wouldn't be shocked if 3 or 4 more zones are released in 2 months.

Well, FWIW I had a tour around Canada tonight.

What surprised me most was thet even on foot my character moved very fast and had no difficulty with most slopes (except the very steepest ones)

Results:

Canada E-W (along south edge of map) 7:00 mins to run 80% of the way.  Had to stop because mountains in SW corner are too steep. 
So... 8.75 mins to travel across Canada W-E.

Traveled S-N along west edge of map (east edge might be better?) 4:00 minutes for 50% of the way.
So...8:00 mins to travel across Canada N-S.

So, Canada instance is about 8 min x 8 min on foot.

Originally posted by gt4980b

The game world is small.  The zones are large but there are not many of them.  Even though the zones are large, they feel like the devs are trying to shove a whale into a tuna can.  The lack of zones was  voiced early in beta.  I don't recall any type of answer.  I knew then that I probably wasn't going to buy this game at release.  I didn't really care for Monster Island or Lemuria....so the game stops at level 30 for me :)  On the positive side, I do believe that they have other zones completed that they haven't mentioned yet.  So I wouldn't be shocked if 3 or 4 more zones are released in 2 months.

thats right bud, expansion expansion expansion.  They asked beta players what new zones they'd like to see.. and the answers were numerous.  They have 2 expansions planned and I know we'll be seeing a number of new zones in those expansions.

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by gt4980b

...

thats right bud, expansion expansion expansion.  They asked beta players what new zones they'd like to see.. and the answers were numerous.  They have 2 expansions planned and I know we'll be seeing a number of new zones in those expansions.

For twenty points can any one name an MMO that has flopped and will never see an expansion?

(My point is: If you intend to buy this game based on the hope there may be an expansion - you could be throwing your money away.  Good luck if you do and I hope there is - but business is tough.  Buy based on whether you like the game as it is is my advice)

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by Gyrus

Originally posted by Gyrus

Big, bigger, huge... massive.

Sounds like my...

... last fish I caught.

 

Seriously though, someone want to measure it for me?

This is easy enough to do
Simply run from one end of each zone to the other and record the time in minutes and seconds
then run from one side of the zone to the other and record the time in minutes and seconds
The rules are:
Please use a 'basic character' which is the default character at new character creation = unbuffed by skills, abilities or equipment. Preferably human if possible.
Please run at 'Standard Pace' = At a run (since this is the default mode for most MMOs). Not at a sprint.

Now I realise that to access higher zones you may need a more advanced character - but please try to use the basic character you need to enter that zone.

Add notes if you think it helps.

For example - I have just done this for The Chronicles of Spellborn and it looks like this
Hawksmouth: 3:30 from docks to city wall (East to West).  2:30 from North to South.  Level 3 human Warrior.  20/Aug/09

 

 

 

A bump for this because I would be interested in more info.

I just did the tutorial and got the following.

Tutorial area took 2 minutes and 50 seconds to run from West to East and 1 minute and 30 seconds to run from north to south with a level 3 Force character (if that matters?)
FWIW that makes it about 30% the size of the Hawksmouth + Hawk's Landing map from TCoS here*
http://spellborndb.net/?page=marker&map=pt_hawksmouth

*note that in the quote above it is 3:30 from the eastern edge of the map to the city wall.  It takes 6:00 to travel across that whole map West to East.

I moved on to the Canada map but I think it must open up more as the level progresses?

Anyway, the only reason I am comparing to The Chronicles of Spellborn (in case you are wondering) is because that is the last game I have done this exercise on.

I would be interested in more feedback.

Please remember though - measure on foot - not flying! :P

 

 

Thats just it though, is the travel powers make the areas feel a lot smaller then they really are.  I can sufficiently make it from  the starting area of MC or Canada, or MI or Lemuria to any of the mission areas in less then 5 minutes (usually)  using teleport, superspeed, flying or any regular travel power -- even acrobatics.

 

Regular walking would take forever on all levels,  but I'll  see what I can do, I know with diffent levels you can be forced to scale mountains and some levels have an irregular pattern, such as a rectangle more then a square,  but I'll try canada and see what I can do.

Walking/runnig is the only true way to see how big a level actually is.

Originally posted by Gyrus

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by gt4980b

...

thats right bud, expansion expansion expansion.  They asked beta players what new zones they'd like to see.. and the answers were numerous.  They have 2 expansions planned and I know we'll be seeing a number of new zones in those expansions.

For twenty points can any one name an MMO that has flopped and will never see an expansion?

 

(My point is: If you intend to buy this game based on the hope there may be an expansion - you could be throwing your money away.  Good luck if you do and I hope there is - but business is tough.  Buy based on whether you like the game as it is is my advice)

The thing is, they already mentioned 2 planned expansions, and I'm sure they've already got one hammered out fairly well.  We should see the first one within the next 6 - 12 months, right about the time when DCUO gets ready to launch and the next when ToR gets ready to launch.  CO's been planning their business model for a while... everything they've done seems to be planned ahead of time (when it comes to their revenue)  I have no doubt that even with lackluster subscription numbers this game will launch both expansions before getting close to the *danger* zone.

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by Gyrus

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by gt4980b

...

thats right bud, expansion expansion expansion.  They asked beta players what new zones they'd like to see.. and the answers were numerous.  They have 2 expansions planned and I know we'll be seeing a number of new zones in those expansions.

For twenty points can any one name an MMO that has flopped and will never see an expansion?

 

(My point is: If you intend to buy this game based on the hope there may be an expansion - you could be throwing your money away.  Good luck if you do and I hope there is - but business is tough.  Buy based on whether you like the game as it is is my advice)

 

The thing is, they already mentioned 2 planned expansions, and I'm sure they've already got one hammered out fairly well.  We should see the first one within the next 6 - 12 months, right about the time when DCUO gets ready to launch and the next when ToR gets ready to launch.  CO's been planning their business model for a while... everything they've done seems to be planned ahead of time (when it comes to their revenue)  I have no doubt that even with lackluster subscription numbers this game will launch both expansions before getting close to the *danger* zone.

In CoH/V they came out every 4 Months.  So within a year they should have 3.  =)

Additional
Managaged to do a run around MillenuimCity last night with the following results:
Ran 33% of the way from West to East (before dyiing - Level 10 Force Character) took 4 minutes
Estimate of total time W-E 12 minutes
Running North to South 100% of the way in 5 minutes.

So Millenium City 12 minutes x 5 minutes.

So the total size of the game world is:
Tutorial 3min x 1.5 min
Desert and Canada 8 min x 8 min each
Millenium City 12 min x 5 min
Monster Island and others not yet measured.

But based on what is measured to put it in context:
CO is about 1/5th the size of PotBS
or about 1/25th the size of WoW (actually smaller since there have been some new continents added recently)
or about 1/150th the size of Darkfall
or about 1/5000ththe size of the playable area of WWIIoL

Please remember though – this is an out and out size comparison – it does NOT refer to content or game 'fun'.

Originally posted by Gyrus

Additional
Managaged to do a run around MillenuimCity last night with the following results:
Ran 33% of the way from West to East (before dyiing - Level 10 Force Character) took 4 minutes
Estimate of total time W-E 12 minutes
Running North to South 100% of the way in 5 minutes.

So Millenium City 12 minutes x 5 minutes.

So the total size of the game world is:
Tutorial 3min x 1.5 min
Desert and Canada 8 min x 8 min each
Millenium City 12 min x 5 min
Monster Island and others not yet measured.

But based on what is measured to put it in context:
CO is about 1/5th the size of PotBS
or about 1/25th the size of WoW (actually smaller since there have been some new continents added recently)
or about 1/150th the size of Darkfall
or about 1/5000ththe size of the playable area of WWIIoL

Please remember though – this is an out and out size comparison – it does NOT refer to content or game 'fun'.

Was Monster Island and Lehmeria put in as equal sizes as M City?  That seems about right though.  WoW has been out for 5 years.  Comparing it to a recent MMO Age of Conan its about 20 to 30% smaller at the time when it came out (not now).  Comparing it to Warhammer Online its 50 to 60% smaller then that before tomb kings came out (Thats not including Scenerios).

Originally posted by Gyrus

Additional
Managaged to do a run around MillenuimCity last night with the following results:
Ran 33% of the way from West to East (before dyiing - Level 10 Force Character) took 4 minutes
Estimate of total time W-E 12 minutes
Running North to South 100% of the way in 5 minutes.

So Millenium City 12 minutes x 5 minutes.

So the total size of the game world is:
Tutorial 3min x 1.5 min
Desert and Canada 8 min x 8 min each
Millenium City 12 min x 5 min
Monster Island and others not yet measured.

But based on what is measured to put it in context:
CO is about 1/5th the size of PotBS
or about 1/25th the size of WoW (actually smaller since there have been some new continents added recently)
or about 1/150th the size of Darkfall
or about 1/5000ththe size of the playable area of WWIIoL

Please remember though – this is an out and out size comparison – it does NOT refer to content or game 'fun'.
 

How long did it take you to reach the top of the tallest building?  You forget Champions is a Three Dimensional game.  If you dont' see the highest point in the game you're not accounting for the entire game.    You can't fly to the highest point in any of the games you listed.  Infact you can't truely free form fly in any of the games you listed there fore your argument is about hmm only partially valid..if not truely invalid.

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by banthis

The tutorial zone is small...the second tutorial zone (crisis zone) is bigger but the fully Desert and Canada zones are like 75% bigger then what you see in the crisis zone.  Millenium city is just crazy huge...even flying way up high and around part of the area I've yet to see all of it.   For once in a game you can count the Height of the buildings as part of the zone's depth since every building you see you can land on.

If your in the Crisis Zone you've ...well not experienced much of the game.  BTW you can regardless of level go to any area you want even the High End Zones once youf inish Crisis...Try actually traveling around.

btw peopel talking about 'small' must not of traveled around to much or forget to count that flying up is counted as part of the zone's size instead of just the width.

 

MI and Lemuria are both very large,  I'd say as large if not larger then the desert.

The desert really isn't that big, it took me about 5-10 minutes to fly all the way round it. Far too large a portion of the game happens in Canada and the desert. You're pretty much in the same areas for the first 30 levels of the game :/

Originally posted by Kabaal

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by banthis

The tutorial zone is small...the second tutorial zone (crisis zone) is bigger but the fully Desert and Canada zones are like 75% bigger then what you see in the crisis zone.  Millenium city is just crazy huge...even flying way up high and around part of the area I've yet to see all of it.   For once in a game you can count the Height of the buildings as part of the zone's depth since every building you see you can land on.

If your in the Crisis Zone you've ...well not experienced much of the game.  BTW you can regardless of level go to any area you want even the High End Zones once youf inish Crisis...Try actually traveling around.

btw peopel talking about 'small' must not of traveled around to much or forget to count that flying up is counted as part of the zone's size instead of just the width.

 

MI and Lemuria are both very large,  I'd say as large if not larger then the desert.

 

The desert really isn't that big, it took me about 5-10 minutes to fly all the way round it. Far too large a portion of the game happens in Canada and the desert. You're pretty much in the same areas for the first 30 levels of the game :/

Desert and Canada are both the same size.  At level 12 you can go fight at M City (depending on your build.)

The game world IS small. Even taking Monster Island and Lemuria into credit. LOTRO was small too, but they kept expanding it, and now it has a decend enough size, tho the bonus of LOTRO was, you could travel from one end to another, where in CO you teleport between totally different zones, which takes a bit the world feeling away. You are always ported to tiny portions of the world where a crisis is, and essentially those areas feel quite small if compared to big landmasses of VG, WOW, now LOTRO or whatever.

Originally posted by Gyrus

Well, FWIW I had a tour around Canada tonight.

What surprised me most was thet even on foot my character moved very fast and had no difficulty with most slopes (except the very steepest ones)

Results:

Canada E-W (along south edge of map) 7:00 mins to run 80% of the way.  Had to stop because mountains in SW corner are too steep. 
So... 8.75 mins to travel across Canada W-E.

Traveled S-N along west edge of map (east edge might be better?) 4:00 minutes for 50% of the way.
So...8:00 mins to travel across Canada N-S.

So, Canada instance is about 8 min x 8 min on foot.

Thing is no one runs as every character has a travel power. That would be like using 'walk' in any other MMO where everyone runs absolutely every where. 

Edit: I found the zones a good size but 5 are far far to few.

I played to lvl 32 in the OB, and at no time did I feel like I had nowhere to go or there wasn't enough area to cover. Yes you can cover a lot of ground with travel powers... that is the point. Quests and story lines were layered well so that I felt like there was a lot there, and they had you moving back and forth just enough that it felt like you were covering territory without duplicating that irritating "run for 20 minute" errand quest mentality. Mob density and respawn was pretty good. Especially fighting the gadroon in canada. When I did the quests around the gadroon area in canada, it felt pretty large... I was shocked at how small it actually was when I flew all the way up and got a satellite's eye view. ;)

Also, I saw a lot of people asking "so where the hell am I supposed to level now"? Well, dungeons and lairs are always open to you, but if you want to keep questing, they have a system in game(the crime computer) which WILL TELL YOU WHICH NPCS HAVE QUESTS... They have a system to tell you where the next quest hub is just in case you can't find it on your own. (I went 25 levels before having to use it, so not sure why people were asking that at lvl 12-14, but it is there if you need it).

I felt exactly the same. Coming from CoX (2 years total sub) the areas of each map felt kinda cramped, not talking about the game world, each zone on its own felt cramped either the zone itself is small or big. It didn't give the feeling of being in one of CoX zones, Take talos for example.

One zone with many instances is how you get around the issue of over crowded zones when the zones are pretty small throughout the game like Guild Wars . I think this further confirms the feeling I had when playing CO, the zones are pretty small and cramped.

I am missing CoX again and prolly will resub but I will wait for them to make their move after CO's release then resub. They hinted at graphics improvements.

Competition is good. I am glad that CO is out now and raised the bar on graphics to make CoX team try and overhaul the graphics engine.
 

Originally posted by Gorilla

 

Thing is no one runs as every character has a travel power. That would be like using 'walk' in any other MMO where everyone runs absolutely every where. 

Edit: I found the zones a good size but 5 are far far to few.

Please read post # 15.

It's not perfect - but at least it provides some measure for comparison.  "good size" means nothing to most people.

Originally posted by banthis

How long did it take you to reach the top of the tallest building?  You forget Champions is a Three Dimensional game.  If you dont' see the highest point in the game you're not accounting for the entire game.    You can't fly to the highest point in any of the games you listed.  Infact you can't truely free form fly in any of the games you listed there fore your argument is about hmm only partially valid..if not truely invalid.

Actually - I did go to the top of the tallest building (I think its a Blimp actually?) - but the problem is that the only way to get there is with travel powers which are at a speed you cannot fairly compare with anything outside this game.

And actually - you CAN fly to the highest point in WWIIoL which is also a 3D game.  The trouble is... what is the speed of a Hoverboard compared to a Spitfire 1a?  or a Spitfire IX? or a He111?

You can't use any measure except travel time and you have to try and use the lowest common denominator.
(Don't you DARE even suggest miles or I will shoot you down in a big pile of "EvE always wins then!")
Running speed of an unbuffed new character (preferably a human) is about as good as it gets.

Seriously, if you can think of a better method to compare the size of game worlds that are often scaled by designers then please share.

Originally posted by Manchine

Was Monster Island and Lehmeria put in as equal sizes as M City?  That seems about right though.  WoW has been out for 5 years.  Comparing it to a recent MMO Age of Conan its about 20 to 30% smaller at the time when it came out (not now).  Comparing it to Warhammer Online its 50 to 60% smaller then that before tomb kings came out (Thats not including Scenerios).

No.  MI and Lehmeria not counted yet - i would love for someone to measure them (see earlier in the thread).

The thing about these sizes though (Your AoC and WAR reference) is that no-one has actually done what I have tried to do and actually done a timed run anywhere.
Distances are misleading.  Our perception of time is misleading - particularly when under stress - which is what happens when you are dodging mobs etc.

Early in this thread people said Millenium City was "Huge" - no it's not really.  The content makes it appear bigger than it is.  That's not a bad thing - but it does warp our perception of distance.
When Darkfall came out people claimed it took hours or days to cross the map - about 3 hours.
EvE players claim "days" - the best (most reliable) source I have at the moment claims 4 hours (I will have to do a trial since the actaul reports vary from 4 hours to 3 days).

Originally posted by Gyrus

Originally posted by Gorilla

 

Thing is no one runs as every character has a travel power. That would be like using 'walk' in any other MMO where everyone runs absolutely every where. 

Edit: I found the zones a good size but 5 are far far to few.

Please read post # 15.

It's not perfect - but at least it provides some measure for comparison.  "good size" means nothing to most people.

I did, and in my opinion it dosen't :) No one travels by running just like in other MMO's no one travels by walking. A better comparison would be flying/sprinting/whatever seeing as every one has access to those modes of transport when they leave the tutorial.

Originally posted by Gorilla
...

I did, and in my opinion it dosen't :) No one travels by running just like in other MMO's no one travels by walking. A better comparison would be flying/sprinting/whatever seeing as every one has access to those modes of transport when they leave the tutorial.

Yes... in THIS game.

But here's the thing...
My Human avatar in WWIIoL can't fly.
My Human avatar in WoW can't fly.
My Human avatar in The Chronicles of Spellborn can't fly.

So tell me... how do I compare the speed of those avatars with a FLYING SUPERHERO?

And if you think about it - the travel times for a flying character should be less - suggesting the world size of CO is even less?

Whether it is big or not doesn't matter.. the fact is.. it FEELS small because the zones aren't connected. I don't like that one bit.

Originally posted by Gyrus

Originally posted by Manchine

Was Monster Island and Lehmeria put in as equal sizes as M City?  That seems about right though.  WoW has been out for 5 years.  Comparing it to a recent MMO Age of Conan its about 20 to 30% smaller at the time when it came out (not now).  Comparing it to Warhammer Online its 50 to 60% smaller then that before tomb kings came out (Thats not including Scenerios).

 

No.  MI and Lehmeria not counted yet - i would love for someone to measure them (see earlier in the thread).

The thing about these sizes though (Your AoC and WAR reference) is that no-one has actually done what I have tried to do and actually done a timed run anywhere.
Distances are misleading.  Our perception of time is misleading - particularly when under stress - which is what happens when you are dodging mobs etc.

Early in this thread people said Millenium City was "Huge" - no it's not really.  The content makes it appear bigger than it is.  That's not a bad thing - but it does warp our perception of distance.
When Darkfall came out people claimed it took hours or days to cross the map - about 3 hours.
EvE players claim "days" - the best (most reliable) source I have at the moment claims 4 hours (I will have to do a trial since the actaul reports vary from 4 hours to 3 days).

 

I can do the WAR.  I will do that tonight when I get home.  =)

Originally posted by Gorilla

Originally posted by Gyrus

Originally posted by Gorilla

 

Thing is no one runs as every character has a travel power. That would be like using 'walk' in any other MMO where everyone runs absolutely every where. 

Edit: I found the zones a good size but 5 are far far to few.

Please read post # 15.

It's not perfect - but at least it provides some measure for comparison.  "good size" means nothing to most people.

 

I did, and in my opinion it dosen't :) No one travels by running just like in other MMO's no one travels by walking. A better comparison would be flying/sprinting/whatever seeing as every one has access to those modes of transport when they leave the tutorial.

My opinion is your opinion doesn't count so its all good.  =)

The question you should be asking is...Is the game fun ?

I found it to be fun.