Originally posted by Axehilt

Why do you feel MMORPGs can't be done with the same PVP-only gameplay Planetside had?

It's possible.  It's just nobody's done it yet.

When implemented correctly MMORPG-style Combat is both fun and deep.

Not all MMORPGs have deep combat.  In fact that's one of WAR's biggest failings: it's a PVP-focused game with shallow combat.  Most who played it will vaguely explain to you WAR "isn't fun", but few understand the concrete reasons it fails to feel fun to people.

But again, a PVP-only MMORPG is totally viable.

"Innovation will NOT come by thinking "This cant be done because of X Y or Z."

I found this comment ironic.

I didn't say "Balancing PVE and PVP can't be done" in my post.  I merely explained the pros/cons of attempting to do so, pointed out one method of drastically improving PVP/PVE balancing, and pointed out (the obvious) that you can never achieve flawless PVP/PVE balancing because humans and AI think/act differently.

You, however, simply said a PVP-only MMORPG couldn't happen.  No explanation.  Just that it's impossible.  It can't happen.

Maybe I misunderstood your point.

What I am saying is this:

That PvP for the sake of PvP in an MMORPG just isnt fun for me. If I wanted to just go out and fight others, the FPS games available will do a fine job at satisfying this need.

In order for PvP to work in an MMORPG game (and, I should add, be Successful, Interesting and Fun to the RPG folks) it needs to have a solid PvE core to it. It has to MEAN something and be for a Purpose. Even if that purpose is just to live the life of a pirate or highway robber, waylaying travellers and taking some of their stuff. Territory control is well and good, but there needs to be a reason an MMORPG player would want to control that territory...and I would posit that most MMORPG players dont want Pure PVP.

I do not think I am in the minority though when I say I would like a world where PvP is more than just an afterthought. Even PvE players would like this, if the Ganking could be controlled.

Many different systems have to be done and done well in order for PvP in an MMORPG to work. PvE is one of the more important of those because if it is done poorly, then PvP becomes the ONLY thing to do thats of any worth. Choice is important. Sure maybe I love to PvP but I dont want to do it 24/7. Perhaps I would like to go out and fight some NPC guards of a remote village and terrorize the NPC populus. Or Maybe I want to venture into that cave with lots of high powered, dangerous Undead with a few friends to find something interesting.

If its All PVP, All the Time, I get bored. Fast. Its taking away a choice.

The next industry-changing, sucessful game will come from a game that combines great, meaningful PvP in a well done, polished, interesting, and non-grindy (both level and gear wise) PvE world.

Originally posted by Axehilt

When implemented correctly MMORPG-style Combat is both fun and deep.

I am quite looking forward to Outlands for this reason.

Should be fun combat and a little RPG thrown in.  I don't think its an MMO though....more a DiabloII type deal.

Sorry for the walls of text in my previous posts, I tend to go on a bit. I will keep this on short.

PvP focused games often have loads of possibilities for you to immerse yourself in them. And they tend to work well with a bit of PvE but dont work too well with expansions.

PvE focused games also have loads of possibilities for immersion, but rarely benefit from PvP. Here the continued enjoyment comes from new places to experience, slaying new monsters and collecting new treasures. Which is added with expantions.

A game that isnt focused on either will be dificult to balance as you will have 2 different player bases to cater to. Those that want to fight the real enemy and those that want new places to explore.

Computer game companies tend to be poor game masters, as they cannot account for the individual. Every change they make to a game could drasticly impact on the individual characters posibilities to exist in the game world. Forcing them to adapt or perish in obscurity. You like to play your character a certain way. PATCH!! Oh now that doesnt work anymore.

Also computers make poor playmates. They are bad at adapting to you whims. Sometimes you just dont want to have to do things like its written in the script.

Well I said I would keep it short.. And its a bit shorter.. Dunno if I made a point. But then I doubt I got around to it in the other posts either :P

It can also be said that a lack of PVP destroys immersion in MMORPGs.

Really what it breaks down into is what the player is able to interact with in an non-alienating environment. In order to achieve this, the player needs to have an invested interest not in the action, but the believability and both intellectual and emotional interest in the outcome or environment.

A lack of pvp would mean that the only player controlled intractable characters have no direct conflict with your character. This forces the player to interact via conflict with the AI controlled NPCs. Now most games, especially MMORPGs have very limited AI. Better AI means that it needs more processing power. Thus you have in basic non pvp environments, computer controlled enemies who predictably follow the same universal pattern in which the programmers set for them. It basically comes down to a flagged NPC to charge the player, the NPC will never truly be able to recognize the player, even from a distance, since all its doing is following a set of conditions.

This in itself is alienating. It is anti-immersive.

Dynamic n/pc movement, world and settings are the highlight of immersion. This is why mmorpgs rely strongly on player controlled characters to influence the environment, to create a set of challenges or influence the simplicity of the system. PvP enhances this since the challenge is also dynamic.

The player you are interacting with will not do the expected movements of the NPC, it can rationalize, recognize, and adjust to the challenge. Its behavior is completely unscripted.

Thus, PvP actually is the most immersive factor. However, we must go back to the point where the gameplay needs to have a reason other than just action, a condition set by the world, lore, situation..ect. In WoW the alliance fight the horde because there is War for domination...ect or It could be that the lore sets up revenge against a particular faction (which an opposing player may be a part of). You as the player need to have an interest in the lore you either created based off the existing lore/world, or off what the game is telling you.

Thus, lack of pvp with current npc AI is an alienating factor, where as pvp is the element that offers immersion in the form of player interactivity. Even in pve games, the fact you see and compete with other players acting dynamically within pve can be considered a form of pvp.

To the OP

Saying pvp has anythng at all to do with immersion or feeling forced to min/max is misplaced and more to do with you.  As mentioned before in this thread no greater group of min/maxers exist in the MMO space than pve raiders.   Even worse are the hard core raiding guilds themselves who dictate to a strict raid rules, times, schedules, vent, how you play, and what gear you need in addition to consumbles and some down to even how you will spec your character for those games that have choices. 

Getting better gear is what pve games today are about and you will compete with others of the class you play based on gear in getting into groups, guilds, raids.  And do not say it is the challange of the pve, because if you put the exact same gear in an easy less time consuming instance or rais as you did in a hard one almost every pve player would be in the easy one because they could get  gear faster.

Sounds like you have issue with MMO's in general and using pvp as a scapegoat rather than looking at the real issue which issue you seem to have,  game design. 

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Originally posted by HJFudge
What I am saying is this:
That PvP for the sake of PvP in an MMORPG just isnt fun for me.

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Sure, that's completely valid, and separate from whether a MMORPG could be successful with just PVP.

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and I would posit that most MMORPG players dont want Pure PVP.

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Also completely valid.

It's a simple fact that across all of gaming, single-player is more popular than multiplayer. The ratio's been changing, but I would guess singleplayer games are still considerably more popular.

But neither of these points prevents a potential PVP-only MMORPG from existing.

It's a bit hard to understand why you only feel the battle "means something" when PVE rewards are at stake. Even Planetside's rudimentary territorial control bonuses were very important in that game, and influenced the continental strategy that factions would employ. If you don't control a tech center on a continent, you don't get main battle tanks...and that can be a significant disadvantage.

It's not hard to imagine a ton of different ways controlling territory would matter.

And while it wouldn't be "real" PVE, it's also not hard to imagine non-PVP tasks. Even Planetside had dropship pilots, ANT driving, commanding, mobile base drivers, and engineers. The majority of which are combat-related, but not directly combat...and a few of which are purely non-combat tasks.

Again, Planetside's examples are of a rudimentary stab at a PVP-only MMO. It's not hard to imagine a fully-realized gathering/crafting system in such an MMO, fueling the desire of players to capture that volcano for its valuable Magicite Ore.

Maybe you could clarify exactly the type of PVE you feel is necessary for things to feel worthwhile?