Originally posted by Draco91

Originally posted by kamenwati

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Originally posted by kamenwati

You have to realize though that this is less about game mechanics and more about the general attitudes of players. The overly competitive nature of MMO's these days lends itself to people feeling like they have to be the highest level and have the best gear ASAP.

I'm merely remininscing on the days when the general attitude was to stop and smell the roses and not be in such a rush to see the view from the top. Now it's all about efficiency, min/max-ing, reading everyone else's guides on the "best way" to do everything so that you can reach the end, get the best items, and have your character look and operate like every other.

We can blame developers for creating "meaningless" content, but does it really matter when the general attitude is to open up a guide and go from point A to point B like a good little lab rat anyway?

Again, I blame developers for facilitating such attitudes. The discrepancy between low and high level characters opens the door for people to feel the same way I do when I'm low level and push them to level as fast as possible to feel valid in the game world. Again I point out Guild Wars. You level to max and get max gear very easily and very quickly. The rest of the time you are just playing the game, stopping to smell the roses, doing things because you enjoy them, not because you feel like you have to in order to enjoy the game at a later point.

 

Philosophically, it sounds to me like the difference between someone who's waited until they've retired to see the world and someone who maybe chose a more difficult journey in life but experienced more along the way. Nothing is stopping you from enjoying a game before you've reached "retirement".

Realistically, we just come from different MMO backgrounds.

There's no power gap between a retiree and someone who is working while pursuing other interests. There is a power gap between a level 30 and a level 60. The sooner you get to max, the sooner the power gap is nullified. This power gap, it seems, is where Abrahmm's discontent lies. It isn't a matter of reaching the end, so much as breaking the power barrier between players. I tend to agree on some aspects here... but I do like the feeling of improving significantly over time. Guild Wars allows significant improvement over a short time, and significant amounts of meaningful content after the end of that improvement, which allows for both that feeling of improvement, and the closing of the power barrier. I don't play Guild Wars much anymore, but they did that part of things right (which is why I keep using it as an example now).

Pretty much exactly how I feel. In Guild Wars, you can continually make your character better by acquiring new skills to use, but once you are level 20 you are capable of holding your own in PvP. This gives you the ability to nullify the power gap quickly yet still continually progress and make your character better.

My main gripe isn't that there is a power gap, but that it is so big and such a decisive factor. A level 10 has absolutely no chance against a level 80, or 70, or even a 25. They need to give players the ability to continually progress and make their characters better, but in small enough increments to where the power gap is tiny and a skilled new player has a chance against an older player.

Originally posted by Nizur

 

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Originally posted by JGMIII
I've always enjoyed the journey more.
When I have the whole game world to look forward to.
I hate when I'm stuck in a handful of high level zones with only Raids to look forward to.
This is why I play Games with no endgame like Eve and Ryzom.

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I hear ya. I got sucked into the "mad dash" to level cap in WoW. After a while I got sick of raiding constantly and started looking elsewhere. I learned to just slow down and enjoy the journey in LotRO, but even at my slow pace I still hit end-game there and got bored of raiding and the MoM grind.

Now I'm taking my time and enjoying Ryzom and am really looking forward to other sandbox MMOs like Earthrise and MO.

EQ for me! and DAOC ...but I dunno if its the NEW MMO's or the way there designed but in WAR I raced crazy mad to end game...I think alot of people did its the way they designed the quest but I felt like I was constantly just running to red circles on my map no time to talk to no one!!!! .....and I am not usually like that. Also I played Anarchy Online off and on since release and still only have a 213 character.

Originally posted by kamenwati

Originally posted by Draco91 

There's no power gap between a retiree and someone who is working while pursuing other interests. There is a power gap between a level 30 and a level 60. The sooner you get to max, the sooner the power gap is nullified. This power gap, it seems, is where Abrahmm's discontent lies. It isn't a matter of reaching the end, so much as breaking the power barrier between players.

 

Why is it a problem that there is a power gap? Shouldn't there be some sort of reward for effort? The only time that even seems relevant is in the case of unrestricted PvP where higher level players can go gank lowbies.

It also completely segregates the community into subsections based on level. In WoW, you as a level 20 can't go help your level 80 friends fight a monster because you will be instantly killed. That is another reason why I felt the need to rush through the leveling, all my friends were already at max level playing the game, and I was unable to play with them because I still had to go through that whole pointless timesink. It also makes lower level content completely worthless and wasted once the player is passed that level of power.

The real question is, why have such massive power gaps?

i didn't care about the endgame until i played the endgame, then thats all the mattered

the mmo world was only exciting for the first month or two of playing an mmo thats about it

Originally posted by beeker255

Originally posted by Nizur

 

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Originally posted by JGMIII
I've always enjoyed the journey more.
When I have the whole game world to look forward to.
I hate when I'm stuck in a handful of high level zones with only Raids to look forward to.
This is why I play Games with no endgame like Eve and Ryzom.

---

 

I hear ya. I got sucked into the "mad dash" to level cap in WoW. After a while I got sick of raiding constantly and started looking elsewhere. I learned to just slow down and enjoy the journey in LotRO, but even at my slow pace I still hit end-game there and got bored of raiding and the MoM grind.

Now I'm taking my time and enjoying Ryzom and am really looking forward to other sandbox MMOs like Earthrise and MO.

EQ for me! and DAOC ...but I dunno if its the NEW MMO's or the way there designed but in WAR I raced crazy mad to end game...I think alot of people did its the way they designed the quest but I felt like I was constantly just running to red circles on my map no time to talk to no one!!!! .....and I am not usually like that. Also I played Anarchy Online off and on since release and still only have a 213 character.

Maybe its due to me being a older mmo gamer but I enjoy games that let me play my own way.

If I see a clear cut path to a "End game" I quickly lose interest. As an example I reactivated my Account in WoW when WotLK release, I went into the first area, picked up a quest and instantly got bored and left my sub to rot for Ryzom.

I like Options, I think more MMOs should drop this clear path to endgame. Certain games are trying to remedy this by letting you level through pvp or pve and for my experience with WAR so far it isnt much different.

IN a game like Ryzom I just hang out, I don;t need to rush because what I'm doing at that moment feels 100% natural to me. Same goes for Eve even though I know alot of players don't like the games setting or combat I find the game a breath of fresh air even after near two years.

What I would really like is for a game with freedom like Ryzom to also give me the content quality of a Endgame MMO. Like optional dungeons and pvp minigames but not make them madatory for everything, make them feel natural. A complete blend of old school sandbox and new school themepark. Give people options, let the game play feel natural and flow.

Maybe one day.

My fondest memories are from DAoC.  I remember fighting away solo at first and asking around if there are any groups that needed whatever I was playing at the time.  Once I finally found one they were usually out in the thick wilderness or deep down some hole of a dungeon and now I had to carefully make my way down with danger all around.  One screw up and it would set me back not only in experience loss but time as well.  Once I finally get down to them I would then be able to relax because now I have a safe place to kill and gather loot and experience in a relaxed setting.  I can kick back and BS with the rest of the group after a few pulls because healers/casters would run out of mana, hell even the combat was slow enough that I can toss in some dialogue while fighting.  It was always about the people and having a good journey together especially since the journey took forever.

To me it just seemed like at that time people took them selves less seriously.  Everybody had a healthy sense of humor.  Nobody would have a knee jerk reaction to things people would say.  Nowadays people just seem like they want to shoot from the hip and I think that's what ruins the communities nowadays.  All the people that are inclined to socialize get turned off by the lack of like minded individuals who take jokes and humor for what it is.

The average age of the MMO player is dropping, this is why you think player attitudes to MMO’s have changed.

Teenagers take themselves very seriously, they have very little self referential humour. They shoot from the hip and find it hard to relate to a sense of community.

It is becoming easier for those younger and younger to join a MMO. You used to need a credit card, now you often don’t. You used to need a PC, now often a console will do. MMO’s were designed with PC RPG games in mind, now they are designed with console beat erm ups in mind.

The whole genre is going tweenie and so more and more of us are washed up here, wondering what happened to MMO’s? There are still some good MMO’s out there but each new release takes a step further to console button crunching, easy as possible game play, casual play style, solo only style games.

The whole problem is, most of the journey sucks ass.  I don't enjoy doing the same quests, only with different text and different mobs.  The only difference between most mobs are the skins.  How much fun can a person have doing that?  I had a lot of fun in FFXI, because it was my first.  I had a lot of fun leveling in WoW for the first time.  After that, leveling in any game became the most boring aspect of the game.  If the journey was more interesting, and the quests were fun and challenging, then I wouldn't mind. 

Too bad the journey isn't interesting, and the quests aren't fun or challenging.  Go kill 20 boars.  Go deliver this note to this guy.  Save me, and bring me back to town.  These type of quests are unavoidable, but devs haven't tried anything to improve them.  The big problem is the AI of MMOs are horrible.  If the AI was improved to be somewhat close to a single player game, I'm sure many people would love the journey. 

As it is right now, most mobs in MMOs are dumb as hell.  I can kill all regular mobs in MMOs with my eyes closed (literally).  That's just not fun to me.  This is why I need PvP in a MMO, or I wouldn't bother to play. Until PvE is on par, or close to a single player game, leveling up will be boring as hell. 

I still don't care about the end game.

Maybe that's why I haven't been a subscriber to any MMO longer than few months since 2004.  Excluding LOTRO.

Storylines matter to me. I figure the writers put some effort into writing the quests, so I'll put a little effort into reading them and following the stories they tell. Since PvP means "Kill anything with a life bar" nowadays, I stick with PvE. I take my own sweet time, currently in WoW once again. I try to hit up every faction I can, including going after racial mounts by starting from the very beginning of allied races if necessary. Once I've done it all and seen it all on my way to level cap, I call it a day. Raids to me mean playing the games at the whim of other people. I'll group up when necessary on my journey, but when I have to schedule days and times to do crap that lasts upwards of 5 hours and beyond, only to wind up getting ZIP at the end because the final boss didn't drop anything I could use, it stops being fun.

So, yeah, I prefer the levelling game. I don't even pay attention to the levelling itself, only so far as to allocate a new talent point, or hit up my trainers. Other than that, I just get quests, do the ones I can, hold the ones I can't in reserve until I can do them, and just play. To me, endgame is when I click "Exit to desktop" the last time and move on to something else.

Still doesn't.  I despise the MMORPG traditional end game.

Originally posted by kamenwati

You know, back when you actually enjoyed the journey of leveling itself, even when it meant camping the same spot in a dungeon for hours on end, because it was enough of a rush just to get to see new areas of the game and get new abilities?

Back when you slowly, over time, amassed wealth and possessions, and there were clear differences between the players who put in the effort and those who didn't?

When dying had penalties, and you quickly learned to be protective of your character and not send him charging foolheartedly into battle?

You know, when you actually felt like you had achieved something and felt an attachment to your avatar?

There was no prize waiting for you at the end. There were no freebies or pats on the back to remind you that You're Special.

Your prize was in fact the time that you had spent reaching the end and the friendships and memories you formed.

Sigh.

Get off my lawn.

hmm i don't have to remember, because is still don't give a s**t about the endgame ....

I just wish it was possible to do all the content in a game like WoW without doing some of the content a billion times.

I'd love to do all the "endgame" stuff once or twice and then quit, but you pretty much can't do that.

We need more MMO's W/O endgames.

Originally posted by Ekibiogami

We need more MMO's W/O endgames.

I assume you were being sarcastic, but if not, how's that possible?

Actually, no.

My first MMO's were Lineage 1 quickly followed by DAOC which were both level based and I was on the tread mill to end game right from day one.

In Lineage 1, the end game consisted of fighting for control of various castles and if a player wasn't in the level 45+ range they need not apply.  Also, you could not talk on global chat (where all sales took place) until level 30, another big incentive to level quickly.

DAOC was worse.  Its core PVP did not start until level 50 so players fought their way to 50 as quickly as they could.

I recall being a low level (20 something) and speaking to a veteran who was leveling an alt.  I told him it much be great to have a level 50 and she (he?) said, not really, once you get to 50 you just end up re-rolling an alt and doing it all over again.

Didn't realize how prophetic that person would be.  I leveled up 6 characters to 50 (and bought 2) and in every game since then I've had 5 or more maximum level characters. 

The good news is, I enjoy leveling alts (to a point) and find satisfaction in leveling each one to max more efficiently than the first time. 

I recall in WOW my first Paladin took like 16 days played.  My final Warlock, 6 days.

It wasn't until a few years ago when I started playing EVE that I discovered the freedom of an MMO w/o an endgame to speak of.

Sure, I wanted to fly the bigger better ships, but now that I'm a few years in , I can fly a wide range of ships (not everything of course) and am able to pursue any goal i choose w/o feeling a huge pressure to reroll, or level.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Sure, I wanted to fly the bigger better ships, but now that I'm a few years in , I can fly a wide range of ships (not everything of course) and am able to pursue any goal i choose w/o feeling a huge pressure to reroll, or level.

 

That sounds like an endgame.  How's that any different than WoW.

I never cared all thart much for the end-game.  Thats when it gets repetitive.  The best part of a MMO is leveling up right from the get go when everyone is on the same playing field, learning together, being generally nicer to eachother.

For me, WOW did it best.  Lots of choices, lots to do, lots to see, no linear boxed in path and no GRINDING or spawn camping.

Yes I remember those times.  It was back during UO and EQs reign.  You make an interesting point.  I am so sick of the grind to get to a ''level'' so that you can participate in end game.  I just liked working on my character and making them bad ass like in UO.  It's just not worth playing a game just for a shot at an armor roll or some item.  The wow method of games has made games so item-centric, hence the end game is so important.  I believe those days are over though my friend, as everyone is releasing the same old crap these days.

I don't believe in an endgame principle. I don't raid, but have leveled quickly before just to access new skills/spells/content.

For me it has always been about the journey.

Originally posted by rikilii

Originally posted by Kyleran

Sure, I wanted to fly the bigger better ships, but now that I'm a few years in , I can fly a wide range of ships (not everything of course) and am able to pursue any goal i choose w/o feeling a huge pressure to reroll, or level.

 

 

That sounds like an endgame.  How's that any different than WoW.

On the surface it might seem the same, but I'll try to differentiate.

If i was a max level Druid today in WOW, I'd either be raiding, working on some crafting skills (though I don't think this is something one pursues at length in WOW, and you are limited to a chosen set of trades to work on.) or rerolling another new character to aqcuire new skills and abilities and leveling up all over again.

In EVE, I don't need to reroll to aqcuire new skills, my character can pursue a new career and still remain profcient in his previous ones.

Were I to go into manufacturing, I could occupy myself for months  if not years trying to acheive maximum glory in building the biggest and best ships.  Or I could spend about a year or so becoming a mining expert . 

But no need to really re-roll and level to get anywhere. 

Its hard to explain if  you've never experienced it before.

I remember those days fondly.  They probably won't come again until developers move away from level based games.  Slow progression worked great in a game like UO because you could work on several different skills at once but in a game like EQ where all you had was that one level it was a mind numbing grind.

What gets me is why people even bothering rushing to end-game and then trying to be the "most uber" toon around. I mean lets face it, theres a large amount of other people just like you with the exact same gear. I think if people actually took the time to enjoy the content and not rush to max level they'd have a much more enjoyable online gaming experience.

End-game for me is about time to pack it up and leave or roll another toon and give it a go with a different class. I've no interest in raiding for hours each night, or farming instances for the "best" gear. Its pixels not real life, so when anything ingame requires me to change my real life schedule its time to /quit or take a break.

In a way I guess this is why I enjoy pvp, because it offers more then just aiming for loot all the time. It offers strategy and fights which are different most of time, depending on the class your playing or fighting against. Not to  mention I can log off whenever I want and not feel obligated to stay ingame to grind for loot. PVP FTW!! LOL

Originally posted by cukimunga

Originally posted by rozenblade1

Okay, I absolutely love FFXI...actually, my favorite part was leveling and finding parties to level with...it's a long process, but, in that game, it was worth it...

Thinking back, it makes me want to sub again.....*sighs*

...sometimes getting all nostalgic makes me depressed...nothing is the same anymore.....I can't get the connection with the games or with the other players aas I did with FFXI......hmph...

 

Yeah I know how you feel, Ive quit FFXI so many times to try to find something better and nothing has come close.  I guess thats why I just subbed again lol.   Well I guess ill  see how Fallen Earth is if it dont satisfy my grouping addiction I'll just have to keep playing FFXI until FFXIV comes out.

Yea, I have decided to re-sub to FFXI....I just can't go long without playing an MMO, and since I really don't like anything else out there (or I've grown bored with them), I think I need to go back to the MMO that took my MMO virginity....

....that is, until FFXIV comes to take the sloppy seconds...

That's all I remember, I don't play MMOs for endgame.  I play to level only.  Which is why I stayed with CoX for 5 years.