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Originally posted by Beatnik59 If that's the case, then it's no wonder this genre is getting so boring. PvP gets old, and if the game is all about PvP, the game gets old. The best thing about getting an MMO is that I could do all the things I liked from several games in one game. That's what justified the cost. But if publishers aren't going to give me diverse things to do with diverse players, then half the fun of these games is gone.
I agree generally about the diversity point but personally I can't see there ever being a good PvP game that isn't designed primarily as a PvP game. I think games will always have situations where some element is good for PvP and bad for PvE or vice versa and i think games have to choose - are they going to consistently put PvE first or consistently put PvP first. I think the reason the genre is getting dull is the opposite - games are aiming at trying to be "ok" to as large a number of people as possible instead of being "great" to a smaller niche. Although the first option seems to makes financial sense in theory it misses out a critical factor. If a game is aiming to cover the widest possible base then non-gaming considerations become more important like friend-gravity. Someone who really likes spaceship PvP is more likely to play Eve even if their friends all play WoW. Someone whose ideal niche game isn't available is more likely to go where their friends are - and that's most likely to be WoW (on average). |
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Let me attempt to sum this up. To the OP, PvP may ruin immersion for you, but your reasoning is flawed. Min/maxing is what seems to be the thing that really kills immersion for you, and that's not limited to PvP. Not only is it not limited to PvP, but it is also more frequent in PvE environments. Why is this? 1) PvE is consistant of scripted environments and always has been. Because you know exactly what you are going to face (or your group leader does), it is beyond foolish to not plan accordingly. Why would anyone want to bring ice resist equipment to a fire dungeon? This is a very common example of min/maxing. 2) PvE tends to get repetative and boring to many players. It is for this reason that developers are forced to constantly make PvE have more content, and be more challenging. Because of this, the more challenging the encounters get, the more min/maxing is persuaded. 3) min/maxing in pvp gets more and more diluted with the more players you have. It is almost exponentially so, to the point that duels and VERY small encounters (4v4 or less) really benefit from extensive min/maxing. What do I mean by this? In a duel, you know exactly (or have a very good idea of) what you will be facing. This essencially gives the same reasons for min/maxing as PvE encounters. Once you start adding more people, you start having to do more and more guess work as to what will be hitting you, and what you will be hitting. A good example of this is WAR. When you look at WAR, the characters are really not that dynamic. They tend to only have 1, maybe 2 viable options in terms of play-style, however when you start fighting the sheer number makes it hard to prepare for. Sure you can go 'okay, they have a lot of casters, maybe i need anti-caster gear' but that doesn't mean the other players won't focus on you, and the casters on someone else. Ultimately what this comes down to, is PvP in and of itself does NOT kill immersion. It can even strengthen it (i.e. see DAoC). It's hard to get more immersed in scripted encounters, than actual players invading your territory and actually threatening your lands. I know immersion isn't always about realism, but it is always about pull and playability. PvP has playability down, and when designed well, has the kind of pull it's hard to stay away from. PvE is almost the exact opposite. It tends to be fun for a little while (for most people), but then gets stale. It's hard to make games that do both well, but there's a reason those games tend to succeed. |
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You know what kills immersion for me? Fighting artificial intelligence. |
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PvP doesn't kill immersion, it kills decent game communities www.creative-inn.com |
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Originally posted by osc8r
That was going to be the same argument I would make in favor of PvP. Why shouldn't my enemies be as smart as I am? (granted there are many dumber and many smarter than I in the enemy factions) http://www.excelion-legion.com/ |
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Originally posted by Rajen
Fixed that for you. FFA pvp where griefers shine and have no negative to attack whoever they want kills decent communities. Games with restrictions with safe zones and rules are alot better community wise. Playing: EvE, Ryzom |
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Originally posted by JGMIII
Fixed that for you. FFA pvp where griefers shine and have no negative to attack whoever they want kills decent communities. Games with restrictions with safe zones and rules are alot better community wise.
I agree completely. www.creative-inn.com |
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Originally posted by Rajen
I agree completely. and I agree even more! :) because DAOC had one of the best communities I ever played with. |
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Preface: I'm not much of a PvP'er. I suck at it. But I generally like to play in PvP envrionments when I can cause the added danger of being suddenly ganked (note: ganking and griefing are not the same) while being about my buisiness added a lot of fun for me. Even if I lost (which was most of the time) and of course the thrill of escaping a gank. That being said, I'll say that FFA PvP especially combined with little or no death penalty removes all that fun. It merely becomes annoying. Griefing kills immersion. Spawn camping kills immersion. AoC PvP servers is a prime example of immersion killing, pointless, annoying PvP. I hate to say it cause I know the response it gets, but I'll have to mention WoW (haven't played in almost 2 years). Wow PvP servers, you start out in safe areas, then the storyline, via quests slowly moves you into PvP areas where you, while questing meet up with the enemy. PvP ensues. It can be avoided to some extent, it can be sought out. Thats what I like in a MMORPG. If I wanted more than that I'd play deathmatch PvP on a console. I play MMORPG's for the M, the M, the O, and most importantly for the RPG. Wild non-consequence pvp is fun. But not when I'm playing an MMORPG. Then its just silly. As a side note, population is key. Games with high populations tend to have their own responses to chronic gankers that end up being fun anyway. |
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Originally posted by JGMIII
Fixed that for you. FFA pvp where griefers shine and have no negative to attack whoever they want kills decent communities. Games with restrictions with safe zones and rules are alot better community wise.
So that's why WOW has such a great community? lol UO, AC1, and EVE all had or have superb communities, far better than any PVE or team PVP game I have ever played. What brings out lame communities IMO is PVP without RISK. Without risk, there can be no accountability for ones actions, and without accountability it's just a zest pool of trash. |
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Originally posted by osc8r
So that's why WOW has such a great community? lol UO, AC1, and EVE all had or have superb communities, far better than any PVE or team PVP game I have ever played. What brings out lame communities IMO is PVP without RISK. Without risk, there can be no accountability for ones actions, and without accountability it's just a zest pool of trash. I actually played UO, wanna why Trammel was released? because of unrestricted pvp making people leave. Want to know why Eve is so popular? Because it has restricted pvp!!!!! What the hell do you think Empire is bro?!?!? A restricted pvp area with rules. Can you break these rules? yeah but this area still gives players a choice in how much they want to risk. Also don't bring up wow that game blows dude, Don't insult me.
Playing: EvE, Ryzom |
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Originally posted by JGMIII
So that's why WOW has such a great community? lol UO, AC1, and EVE all had or have superb communities, far better than any PVE or team PVP game I have ever played. What brings out lame communities IMO is PVP without RISK. Without risk, there can be no accountability for ones actions, and without accountability it's just a zest pool of trash. I actually played UO, wanna why Trammel was released? because of unrestricted pvp making people leave. Want to know why Eve is so popular? Because it has restricted pvp!!!!! What the hell do you think Empire is bro?!?!? A restricted pvp area with rules. Can you break these rules? yeah but this area still gives players a choice in how much they want to risk. Also don't bring up wow that game blows dude, Don't insult me.
UO never had negative growth before trammel was released. And the argument wasn't about whether a PVP system was popular, it was about the community it brought, thus your argument is null. Eve doesn't have restricted PVP, you can PVP anywhere but there is associated risk. PVP in WOW is restricted yet it is widely considered to have one of the worst, if not the worst community in the MMO genre. But wasn't your argument that UNRESTRICTED PVP killed communities? Let me guess, the only FFA PVP / Unrestricted PVP games you have played are modern versions that have had the RISK part removed, and where the PVP aspect generally revolves around killing as many people as you can to get 'points'. |
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Originally posted by osc8r I actually played UO, wanna why Trammel was released? because of unrestricted pvp making people leave. Want to know why Eve is so popular? Because it has restricted pvp!!!!! What the hell do you think Empire is bro?!?!? A restricted pvp area with rules. Can you break these rules? yeah but this area still gives players a choice in how much they want to risk. Also don't bring up wow that game blows dude, Don't insult me.
UO never had negative growth before trammel was released. And the argument wasn't about whether a PVP system was popular, it was about the community it brought, thus your argument is null. Eve doesn't have restricted PVP, you can PVP anywhere but there is associated risk. Yes, PVP in WOW is restricted yet it is widely considered one of the worst, if not the worst community in the MMO world. But wasn't your argument that UNRESTRICTED PVP killed communities? Yes but your taking the worst example possible to make your point as you over look DAOC with restricted pvp in its pve zones and had one of the best communities I have been associated with ...so was Anarchy Online. Look all we is asking is leave WOW out of it ....I think alot of people know WOW has alot of players that cant name probably another MMO much less played one :) |
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Originally posted by osc8r I actually played UO, wanna why Trammel was released? because of unrestricted pvp making people leave. Want to know why Eve is so popular? Because it has restricted pvp!!!!! What the hell do you think Empire is bro?!?!? A restricted pvp area with rules. Can you break these rules? yeah but this area still gives players a choice in how much they want to risk. Also don't bring up wow that game blows dude, Don't insult me.
UO never had negative growth before trammel was released. And the argument wasn't about whether a PVP system was popular, it was about the community it brought, thus your argument is null. Eve doesn't have restricted PVP, you can PVP anywhere but there is associated risk. Yes, PVP in WOW is restricted yet it is widely considered one of the worst, if not the worst community in the MMO world. But wasn't your argument that UNRESTRICTED PVP killed communities? EVE has restricted pvp, Sure it's not as hard coded as a game like WoW where you can't even attack anyone. But if you attack anyone without a WARdec or making someone red blinky to you, you will get blown to hell. Sounds like a restriction to me. Also I know tons of people have never been blown up in near two years of playing Eve being in Empire space. You know what that is? It's a player having a choice! A choice of how risky his game play experience is. IN games like DF you don;t have that. As far as immersion goes I disagree that pvp breaks immersion since I am a pvper and a sandbox fan i'm a bit bias. Also WoW doesn;t have the worst community, that's just something the haters on this forum say. I;ve played many a F2p game that had worse, actually I've meet people in UO (Pre-Trammel) that were much bigger assholes than people in WoW.
I basically jumped into this thread to respond to a poster not the OP, I know its off topic and im sorry but I believe sandbox developers need to stop with the FFA grief fests. We need sandbox games with freedom for all playstyles similar to SWG and Ryzom and yes even EvE. Playing: EvE, Ryzom |
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Originally posted by beeker255 I never played DAOC, so I can't comment on that - I was too busy playing AC1 at the time! But all I'm saying is not all UNRESTRICTED PVP games are equal. UNRESTRICTED PVP games without any risk, or fear of acting like a douche is simply asking for a terrible community. Maybe I'm expecting a bit too much these days (as the red=dead mentality is so common now), but back in UO/AC1 and even early tibia we actually had a community that would police itself. We had the Anti vs RPK mentality, and it was great fun and very tight nit. These days FFA PVP games have zero risk so there's not only not accountability for your actions, but there's generally a PVP point system that rewards ganking, griefing and other lame arse behaviour. |
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Originally posted by osc8r And all I'm saying is not all UNRESTRICTED PVP games are equal. UNRESTRICTED PVP games without any risk, or fear of acting like a douche is simply asking for a terrible community. Maybe I'm expecting a bit too much these days, but back in UO/AC1 and even early tibia we actually had a community that would police itself. We had the Anti vs RPK mentality, and it was great fun and very tight nit. These days FFA PVP games have zero risk so there's not only not accountability for your actions, but there's generally a PVP point system that rewards ganking, griefing and other lame arse behaviour. And you made a good point there I do remeber in my limited time time on AC. I thought I'd be pk''d so bad that the first guy that ran at me I started fighting and he was from an Anti PK guild and he stopped me(hell he was way over my level) and taugh me the ropes and such. |
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To address the WoW issue, WoW's community quality has little to do with its PvP. WoW's community quality comes from a combination of things, a big part of which is the fact that it appeals to the instant-gratification and low to no-risk crowd -- which happen to line up with the majority of the younger generation right now (and I'm not trying to make a blanket statement that's insulting to the younger crowd here; I'm part of the younger crowd (18), and I prefer higher risk games that take more effort to progress in; but I'm also willing to admit that most of my generation and younger love low-risk and instant gratification, and that those with this attitude contribute significantly to the problems with the WoW community, albeit not solely).
More on topic, I agree that FFA PvP ruins games (show me a functional game with a decent playerbase with true FFA PvP). I also agree that low-risk PvP ruins games, ESPECIALLY when combined with FFA PvP. Low-risk PvP encourages mindless zerging. Risk not only increases the amount of thinking and strategy involved, but it also decreases the consistency and frequency of attacks, due to necessity to spend time planning. It also knocks out a large majority of the low-risk, instant gratification crowd I mentioned earlier.
PvP in general does not ruin immersion though. Like others have said, DAoC was great for RP and immersion, and PvP was a huge part of the game. Everquest used to be great for RP and immersion. Now it's all about min-maxing for endgame raids. The RP server is pretty much empty. Everquest is most certainly NOT PvP focused, and it doesn't necessarily have a bad community either. But the focus is more on having the best stats than enjoying the game world. Not much immersion. So again I agree with others when they say that min-maxing ruins immersion, but PvP does not.
Edit: fixed wording and spelling errors. "In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional or disciplinary response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[2]" (Wikipedia.org, 8-24-09) The best way to deal with trolls: |
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well i do agree that fighting games are great pvp but not many computer ones. only one i have see online was kwonho which ijji killed because of servere lag. which holds back alot of fighting games on the internet. u should look up some of the tekken crash games the koreans are playing recently its pretty crazy.
also alot of these mmo are nothing near the skill lvl of fighting games but i would say they are getting closer but as long are its an rpg and there are lvls i dont see it being that great. |
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People saying something destroys immersion, destroys my immersion. Games are for fun, TV is for wasting time and books are for immersion. You want immersion go read a book. Seriously – they are very good for that. Nothing is better actually. |
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Originally posted by GreenChaos Well, there's always drugs... |
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Originally posted by GreenChaos
Edit: woops, had my IME on. I don't know if I can simplify any art form in that way, including games. http://www.excelion-legion.com/ |
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Swimming is better for immersion than books, actually. "You know, you have such a stunningly superficial knowledge of what went on that it's almost embarrassing to listen to you." Zbigniew Brzezinski to Joe Scarborough regarding Clinton and the Middle East on the "Morning Joe" program. |
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Originally posted by beeker255 And you made a good point there I do remeber in my limited time time on AC. I thought I'd be pk''d so bad that the first guy that ran at me I started fighting and he was from an Anti PK guild and he stopped me(hell he was way over my level) and taugh me the ropes and such. /begin rant: warning off topic Haha, me too! It was actually a nice surprise, and even though it over 10 years ago now I do remember the experience fondly. I remember the anti rpk leading me to town and buying me a set of a leather armor, and an amazing bow. Shortly after this as we were about to leave town a group of 3 RPK's (each 10 level's higher than the anti) came running in and set upon him. I remember getting out my bow and trying to help, lol, but of course I couldn't even hit the bugga's they just kept 'evading' me. Well the anti rpk managed to kill 2 of the bugga's, but the last one got the better of him.... and as for me? I was still standing there shooting the bastard trying to bait him away from the anti's corpse, which a) didn't work and b) got me absolutely pummeled and my new bow stolen. But not all was lost as I had found myself a mentor and in game friend. Within 2 months I was a high enough level to patrol the noobie area's and offer protection to the nubs from rpk's... as well as help them with advice and equipment - which to be honest was not only one of the most fun & memoriable experiences of my gaming life, but the most rewarding too. But sadly, times have changed & experiences like this are no longer possible in current MMO environments, and even if they were I fear the communities these days would ruin it.
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Originally posted by Axehilt Still not quite on the spot with your example. I think you tried too hard. If a "min/maxer" was given either of those, he'd drop them both and go with the electric nail gun. And anyway, I agree that min/maxers are very annoying, especially when the majority of posts on forums become like "zomg if my math is correct blah blah then youll get 3% dps" or stuff like "lol thats not what it says in my spreadsheet".
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Originally posted by popinjay
Ha ha, you win. The best is reading underwater. |
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