Well I think it does.

Once you add an element of Player Vs Player people NEED to min/max, and the moment you begin min maxing instead of developing a character naturally in a way which suits you, you destroy any immersion.   The simple fact is, no one likes to lose.  You might be good at losing, take it in your stride, not think too much of it, clap the winner on the back and say well done.....you still didn't like losing. 

Losing in PvE means nothing, you got beat by a machine that can do 10 million calculations a sec...big whoops, can it paint? can it write music (which has feeling) can it invent anything?  No it can't, so who cares if it can do 10 trillion calculations a sec and kick our ass in PvE.  Losing at PvE is a matter of game balance and design.  Losing at PvP is a matter of pride.

If I am going to PvP I am going to want to be the best I can be, not the second best, not the third best, but the absolute best and that means min/max'ing it means reading up on the web which is the best build to use in PvP so that I can win as much as possible.

PvP = Death of Immersion.

If someone gave you a Drinking Cup and a Hammer, and asked you to bang in some nails, which would you use?

...oh crap you just made a min/max decision in real life!  RL isn't immersive anymore!

Aside from real life having min/max decisions, do you really want to argue in favor of PVE (AI mobs) being immersive in the MMORPG genre?   Really?   The same mobs who watch you kill 10 of their BFFs and will calmly sit there in their 10-ft patrol bubble until you step into their aggro radius?

Originally posted by Dafong

Well I think it does.

 

Once you add an element of Player Vs Player people NEED to min/max, and the moment you begin min maxing instead of developing a character naturally in a way which suits you, you destroy any immersion.   The simple fact is, no one likes to lose.  You might be good at losing, take it in your stride, not think too much of it, clap the winner on the back and say well done.....you still didn't like losing. 

 

Losing in PvE means nothing, you got beat by a machine that can do 10 million calculations a sec...big whoops, can it paint? can it write music (which has feeling) can it invent anything?  No it can't, so who cares if it can do 10 trillion calculations a sec and kick our ass in PvE.  Losing at PvE is a matter of game balance and design.  Losing at PvP is a matter of pride.

 

If I am going to PvP I am going to want to be the best I can be, not the second best, not the third best, but the absolute best and that means min/max'ing it means reading up on the web which is the best build to use in PvP so that I can win as much as possible.

 

PvP = Death of Immersion.

Put down the mouse... turn off the computer... go outside...  and relax.... it will all be better soon™

Originally posted by Axehilt

If someone gave you a Drinking Cup and a Hammer, and asked you to bang in some nails, which would you use?

...oh crap you just made a min/max decision in real life!  RL isn't immersive anymore!

Nicely said.

And just to drive that point home, who's more likely to grill you on your equipment, experience, and specializations and base your admittance to said group on your answers? A group headed out for some pvp, or a group headed out for a big raid.

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Originally posted by Axehilt
If someone gave you a Drinking Cup and a Hammer, and asked you to bang in some nails, which would you use?
...oh crap you just made a min/max decision in real life!  RL isn't immersive anymore!

---

Ah, but that's exactly what he's saying. Instead of having a choice of how you want to progress you are forced to dedicate yourself to being viable in PvP. Many different styles can do well in PvE, especially when taking grouping into account, but when PvP becomes involved you are forced to make a character who can hold his own in One on One situations or you are going to get your ass kicked. You can't count on always having a team so it lessens the viability of support characters.

Originally posted by Dafong

 it means reading up on the web which is the best build to use in PvP so that I can win as much as possible.

 

PvP = Death of Immersion.

That goes mostly for wow's arena pvp system , and only concerning 2v2 arena setup.

The solution about that is a game with loads of races and classes and hundrends of skills for each each class along with ranks per skill so no warrior for example will be the same with another warrior , mage with mage etc..something similar with darkfall, or oblivion , or even d&d character development with multiclassing etc

P.S. I dont understand how pvp destroys immersion since as u say by yourself pve is mostly easy and u dont care if u loose from mobs.. From your sayings the meaning is exactly the opposite.

Originally posted by 0over0

Originally posted by Axehilt

If someone gave you a Drinking Cup and a Hammer, and asked you to bang in some nails, which would you use?

...oh crap you just made a min/max decision in real life!  RL isn't immersive anymore!

 

Nicely said.

And just to drive that point home, who's more likely to grill you on your equipment, experience, and specializations and base your admittance to said group on your answers? A group headed out for some pvp, or a group headed out for a big raid.

yeah but what happens when your team get owned.  Cries of Noob spew forth and rage quitters emerge.

I don't think PvP ruins immersion but i do think it ruins games that do not specifically cater to PvP.

i was kinda thinking about this also today.

seems like alot of mmorpg games are turning into rts wannabes because real pvp players play rts games or fps. rpg should be for those who like to roleplay and have fun.

when i say roleplay i dont mean in the term of liveing your character but your a priest and you "play" as one. i kinda wish more rpg games where mainly pve because most time pvp in most games is a joke and requires very little skill. pvp in most rpg games is a joke the only thing i can say about some of it is it requires teamwork.

but for pvp real pvp players play rts and fps games. those that dont. dont have the skill thats required to play them(because you cant gank in rts or fps).
 

Originally posted by Axehilt

If someone gave you a Drinking Cup and a Hammer, and asked you to bang in some nails, which would you use?

...oh crap you just made a min/max decision in real life!  RL isn't immersive anymore!

Aside from real life having min/max decisions, do you really want to argue in favor of PVE (AI mobs) being immersive in the MMORPG genre?   Really?   The same mobs who watch you kill 10 of their BFFs and will calmly sit there in their 10-ft patrol bubble until you step into their aggro radius?

Its not really a reasonable comparison though is it.

Here in your comparison there are only 2 tools one can do the job the other cannot do the job.

How does that compare to an MMORPG with thousands of choices ALL of which work, just some work better then others in PvP?

It really doesn't work at all does it, in fact, in light of this information it looks rather stupid.

I think VENT, forums and UI destroy immersion.

oh and in the case of WoW Trade Channel..ruins immersion.

Originally posted by tazarconan

 P.S. I dont understand how pvp destroys immersion since as u say by yourself pve is mostly easy and u dont care if u loose from mobs.. From your sayings the meaning is exactly the opposite.

It isn't a matter of don't care, its a matter of don't care as much.

Originally posted by logangregor

I think VENT, forums and UI destroy immersion.

 

By this reckoning, your friends playing Pen and Paper D&D destroyed immersion every single time one of them went to the toilet.

There is a certain level you have to accept and carry off yourself....it isn't 3Dimensional complete immersion, you have to rely on your imagination to a certain extent.

The argument I have put forward is that PvP destroys that because you are not longer growing a character naturally in a style that suits you, instead you are attempting to create a powerhouse that can win in PvP and that overtakes any immersive qualities.

Not being able to pvp is what kills immersion. In RL I can attack anyone at any time. There are consequences, but I could do it if I wanted. The more limited gameplay is, the less immersion.

And if you want to get right down to it, having to use only a certain setup is actually very realistic (though I would argue you are playing too much Wow if you think that's how it is). Think about real life combat, most soldiers have identical gear, or one of two or three variations. So in other words, this whole argument is pretty retarded.

Originally posted by xaldraxius

 

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Originally posted by Axehilt
If someone gave you a Drinking Cup and a Hammer, and asked you to bang in some nails, which would you use?
...oh crap you just made a min/max decision in real life!  RL isn't immersive anymore!

---

 

Ah, but that's exactly what he's saying. Instead of having a choice of how you want to progress you are forced to dedicate yourself to being viable in PvP. Many different styles can do well in PvE, especially when taking grouping into account, but when PvP becomes involved you are forced to make a character who can hold his own in One on One situations or you are going to get your ass kicked. You can't count on always having a team so it lessens the viability of support characters.

His entire point was that PVP hurts a game's immersion, and that's wrong.  Immersion has little to do with balance because real life isn't balanced.

Do I feel balance should trump immersion?  Absolutely.  To me, having players' decisions matter is the most critical part of a game being fun, and that's accomplished by having a balanced game.

Originally posted by Axehilt

 

His entire point was that PVP hurts a game's immersion, and that's wrong.  Immersion has little to do with balance because real life isn't balanced.

Do I feel balance should trump immersion?  Absolutely.  To me, having players' decisions matter is the most critical part of a game being fun, and that's accomplished by having a balanced game.

Since when did immersion = real life?

You playing as a Dark Elf Mage....seen any of them in real life recently have you?

It is a game you are supposed to be immersed in, not real life.

Dafong, if you won't accept the cup/hammer example, how about UFC Martial Arts? 

Fighters in UFC don't all have the same stats.  Some participants are just outright stronger or more agile than others.

Additionally, the fighting styles they choose also aren't balanced.  Out of the thousands of styles of martial arts only a tiny minority of them are viable in UFC.

That not enough?  How about comparing World War 2 tanks between the Germans, Japan, USA, and Russians?

Balance doesn't exist in real life, so an imbalanced game doesn't necessarily hurt immersion.

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Originally posted by Dafong

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Originally posted by logangregor

I think VENT, forums and UI destroy immersion.
 

---

 
By this reckoning, your friends playing Pen and Paper D&D destroyed immersion every single time one of them went to the toilet.
 
There is a certain level you have to accept and carry off yourself....it isn't 3Dimensional complete immersion, you have to rely on your imagination to a certain extent.
 
The argument I have put forward is that PvP destroys that because you are not longer growing a character naturally in a style that suits you, instead you are attempting to create a powerhouse that can win in PvP and that overtakes any immersive qualities.

---

Maybe Immersion isnt the word then.

Vent destroys the quiet solitude and enjoyment I get from mmos whether it be pvp or pve.

Im sure Ive said this alot before, and Ill say it again, when I played DAOC, my pc sucked, I didnt have high speed internet, I didnt have vent and I rarely read the forums--- and I enjoyed that game more than any other. Im sure part of that was DAOC byut I beleive the other half was having game for what it was and not all this extra shit interupting my game time.

Originally posted by Dafong

Well I think it does.

 

Once you add an element of Player Vs Player people NEED to min/max, and the moment you begin min maxing instead of developing a character naturally in a way which suits you, you destroy any immersion.   The simple fact is, no one likes to lose.  You might be good at losing, take it in your stride, not think too much of it, clap the winner on the back and say well done.....you still didn't like losing. 

 

Losing in PvE means nothing, you got beat by a machine that can do 10 million calculations a sec...big whoops, can it paint? can it write music (which has feeling) can it invent anything?  No it can't, so who cares if it can do 10 trillion calculations a sec and kick our ass in PvE.  Losing at PvE is a matter of game balance and design.  Losing at PvP is a matter of pride.

 

If I am going to PvP I am going to want to be the best I can be, not the second best, not the third best, but the absolute best and that means min/max'ing it means reading up on the web which is the best build to use in PvP so that I can win as much as possible.

 

PvP = Death of Immersion.

I'm not sure a blanket statement like that is very acurate, but I do agree that min/maxing ruins immersion. Min/maxing is needed when content is designed to be hard enough to require it. Take WOW's raids for example. You can't get into a raid group unless you have the best gear and spec for the dungeon you're doing. Dungeons are that hard, because the hardcore players are skilled enough to need them in order to stay interested. Eventually, it min/max becomes the standard to get into the group, even if it isn't needed (cough Naxx cough).

So not only is min/max needed for PvP, it's needed for harder dungeons/raids. The only way to do away with min/max is to make it not matter and foster that belief throughout the community, because in the end, it is the community that decides what spec and gear you need to have to join them.

Sounds more like OP doesn't like min/maxing, which still happens in pve.

Originally posted by Dafong

Since when did immersion = real life?

 You playing as a Dark Elf Mage....seen any of them in real life recently have you?

 It is a game you are supposed to be immersed in, not real life.

Immersion is a measure of how closely  the game experiences matches the reality you're familiar with.

Fantasy worlds revolve around suspension of disbelief.  Basically they take something fantastic and try to design it in a believable way by having aspects of it mimic reality.  As the wiki article puts it, designed in a way which has a "semblence of truth."  It seems real.

Originally posted by Axehilt

 

His entire point was that PVP hurts a game's immersion, and that's wrong.  Immersion has little to do with balance because real life isn't balanced.

Do I feel balance should trump immersion?  Absolutely.  To me, having players' decisions matter is the most critical part of a game being fun, and that's accomplished by having a balanced game.

In my opinion, immersion is completely subjective and therefore impossible to define.  I happen to agree with the OP, but most of the people who play mmo's as a competitive outlet will obviously disagree.

The more interesting thing in this thread is balance.

'Balance' as it relates to mmorpgs is a myth.  You can't have balance and the complexity inherent in mmo's, they work against each other, as every mmo ever made has proven.  The only truly 'balanced' game is one in which everyone is exactly equal in terms of gear/class/mechanics, with player skill being the determining factor.  In other words, an fps.

I've never really understood why people want to be different, yet at the same time they call for balance.  You can't have both.

You have to use the Guild Wars model.  Everyone gets to level 20 pretty quick, but it's your abilities with skills that make you a better player. 

I do like how EVE is set up.  You can specialize in one skill set and max it out, becoming dominant in that niche, so that even in a corporation of vets, you can be useful, not just overpowered by everyone else.  At least, that's the way I understand it(could be way off :-) ).

Originally posted by kalaren

Sounds more like OP doesn't like min/maxing, which still happens in pve.

This.  Along with OP's self imposed limitations about min maxing.  I play MMO's the way I want, with only a passing thought to my build.  I got highly annoyed when I wanted to join a raiding guild in WOW and they woudn't take me because I had two green rings (all other gear was blue). And that was just to run Molten Core in the day.

Sure, I've run into PVP folks who min/max as well, in EVE some corps won't let you fly with them w/o using Tech 2 ships, but I just go find corps with a different attitude. (even though I fly all T2 ships)

Just not into the whole min/max thing, no matter what the game style'

Originally posted by Axehilt

Dafong, if you won't accept the cup/hammer example, how about UFC Martial Arts? 

Fighters in UFC don't all have the same stats.  Some participants are just outright stronger or more agile than others.

Additionally, the fighting styles they choose also aren't balanced.  Out of the thousands of styles of martial arts only a tiny minority of them are viable in UFC.

That not enough?  How about comparing World War 2 tanks between the Germans, Japan, USA, and Russians?

Balance doesn't exist in real life, so an imbalanced game doesn't necessarily hurt immersion.

I would argue that you are simply not being expansive enough in your examples.

How about weapons in general on the battlefield of modern war....see many bow and arrows? Many swords? No because Armies have Min/Maxed and use Firearms and generally automatic firearms at that.  While this might be a case of the real world min max'ing that doesn't negate the fact that immersion in a FANTASY world requires more then everyone picking up the equivalent of a Machine gun.

Originally posted by logangregor

 

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Originally posted by Dafong

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Originally posted by logangregor

 

I think VENT, forums and UI destroy immersion.
 

---

 

 
By this reckoning, your friends playing Pen and Paper D&D destroyed immersion every single time one of them went to the toilet.
 
There is a certain level you have to accept and carry off yourself....it isn't 3Dimensional complete immersion, you have to rely on your imagination to a certain extent.
 
The argument I have put forward is that PvP destroys that because you are not longer growing a character naturally in a style that suits you, instead you are attempting to create a powerhouse that can win in PvP and that overtakes any immersive qualities.

---

 

Maybe Immersion isnt the word then.

Vent destroys the quiet solitude and enjoyment I get from mmos whether it be pvp or pve.

Im sure Ive said this alot before, and Ill say it again, when I played DAOC, my pc sucked, I didnt have high speed internet, I didnt have vent and I rarely read the forums--- and I enjoyed that game more than any other. Im sure part of that was DAOC byut I beleive the other half was having game for what it was and not all this extra shit interupting my game time.

My first game was DAoC, and I played it from 2002-2005. If there was VoIP, I didn't know about it, and I didn't use forums either. DAoC was the most fun I've ever had in a game. Sure, things got pretty technical when it came to gearing out at lvl 50 for serious RvR, but for the most part, everyone was welcome and people actually cared about their realm. Everyone had fun, because we were doing something together with 5, 10, 20 or more people, and none of us cared so much about what gear you were wearing or what spec you were. THe only people who cared were the 8man groups, which I never got involved with and don't miss not getting involved with them.

I really think forums, VoIP, and information database sites are the true immersion breakers. Without those, people are forced to make their own decisions, learn from their mistakes, read the quests, use a map, and get involved with the community in game to achieve goals that they probably use Thottbot for now.

This is why for AION, I haven't read anything on it in a year and I refuse to visit the forums here on it or on their main site. If I'm going to talk about AION or learn about AION, it'll be from the handbook that comes with the game and through the community in the game itself. I remember pouring over the DAoC handbook several times when I first started playing, learning the controls and studying the different types of classes and realms there were. Good times.