Originally posted by daarco

 

Lets say the noob hits for 40-60 damage and the other dude does 80-100. The noob hits the other fella with eleven hits, but the master/whatever only lands five hits!

That is what Darkfall combat is about.  Dont try and match a two minute old character with a nine months old ok. 

Are you assuming the master/whatever has a motor control disorder or what? Mouse aiming is not so difficult that you're going to improve that dramatically over time and your skills certainly won't be degenerating. The fact is the more trained toon has an almost overwhelming advantage advantage in ranged combat and a significant one in melee. Player ability is not the end all and be all people pretend.

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by daarco

 

Lets say the noob hits for 40-60 damage and the other dude does 80-100. The noob hits the other fella with eleven hits, but the master/whatever only lands five hits!

That is what Darkfall combat is about.  Dont try and match a two minute old character with a nine months old ok. 

 

Are you assuming the master/whatever has a motor control disorder or what? Mouse aiming is not so difficult that you're going to improve that dramatically over time and your skills certainly won't be degenerating. The fact is the more trained toon has an almost overwhelming advantage advantage in ranged combat and a significant one in melee. Player ability is not the end all and be all people pretend.

Of course that's the case and I'm sure everyone knows Daarco's example is a rarity, at best, assuming both players are at the keyboard and actively fighting each other (ie. one's not running away, etc).

But that's all he had available to make an argument on... so... he did his best.

 Yes, i did try me best. 

Player skill is important, and stats are important. Remove one of them and you will be first looser. So macroing a skill wont raise player skill, so you will fail in the end agenst a good player (wich have done both). 

Darkfall is best understood as a triangle system: Player skil and teamwork, skill level, and equipment. A triangle system because each element can have just as much impact on the battle as the others. Player skill is not everything, nor should it be in a game like this, but it's also not a game where levels and equipment alone decide battles.

Someone with uber equipment but no skill level to back it up is just asking to lose it.

Someone with high skill level can be beaten if they can't hit the broad side of a barn, make stupid tactical decisions, or fail to work as a group when facing other groups.

Someone with high individual skill and excellent teamwork can still be beaten if they are seriously outgunned in skill levels and/or equipment.
 

Achieving a balance is necessary, lacking in any one of these areas can lead to defeat. Player skilland teamwork is important, but naturally a level 1 naked can only do so much against a maxed out enemy in uber gear. And no matter how high your individual and level skill is, if you don't have the equipment to back it up then you're going to have a tough time taking on average but well geared players.

Raw player numbers in group vs group battles can matter, but this is not factored into the equation because raw numbers matter in every game regardless of what it's makeup is. It's a universal modifier of team vs team combat. The only question is how much does raw numbers matter. The answer is in darkfall that small elite strike forces can take on two or three times their number if they have superior equipment and coordination/tactics (assuming skill levels are not too far apart between the sides), but it's also risky because the very high level equipment they are using to gain such an advantage also means they are risking a lot by commiting themselves to a battle that may go south before they can get away. That's the best way for a system to work, risk vs reward. Most people run around in stuff they can afford to lose, which grants an advantage to people who are wlling to risk equipment that is very time intensive and expensive to acquire.

The only area where I would say that raw skill levels matter, and trump any kind of player skill or equipment, is when it comes to some high level AoE magic. There's really no way to defend yourself from it, it kills insanely quick, and the caster doesn't have to risk nearly as much in combat as a high level melee or archer.

The only limitation on such powerful magic is the fact that it takes an ungodly amount of resources and time to get to that level, but this is skewed by all the exploiting and macroing in the game which allows some players to achieve in weeks what would take others months, or in months what would take others years.

Originally posted by Trenchgun

Darkfall is best understood as a triangle system: Player skil and teamwork, skill level, and equipment. A triangle system because each element can have just as much impact on the battle as the others. Player skill is not everything, nor should it be in a game like this, but it's also not a game where levels and equipment alone decide battles.

Someone with uber equipment but no skill level to back it up is just asking to lose it.

Someone with high skill level can be beaten if they can't hit the broad side of a barn, make stupid tactical decisions, or fail to work as a group when facing other groups.

Someone with high individual skill and excellent teamwork can still be beaten if they are seriously outgunned in skill levels and/or equipment.

These are the basic premises of almost all MMOs. However, where DFO fails short is not providing lots of options/diversity to stimulate the "risk vs. reward" equation to work.

Newcomers who do not yet understand the whole gist of the game get constantly pwned, without any chance of defense. As such, they imagine that the problem is skill points. So, they go ahead and grind their brains out. Many will get disgruntled during this period, and will leave. Others will realize that all that time sink in the end provided a small advantage, but is it worth it?

Thus, what happens in the game is an evil Darwinian effect of sorts: only those who can overcome the simple "pew pew" combat, inane grinding and lack of side features will be able to have fun in the long run. And this is not good for any game. It is possible to make the game more accessible and broad, without losing the grit and "hardcoreness". However, I doubt AV will be creative enough to do so, considering their last moves.

Originally posted by daarco

 Yes, i did try me best. 

Player skill is important, and stats are important. Remove one of them and you will be first looser. So macroing a skill wont raise player skill, so you will fail in the end agenst a good player (wich have done both). 

You didn't address the main issue though daarco.

The more time that passes the bigger the problem becomes.  Right now, a newbie joining DarkFall is looking at quite an uphill climb if they want to be competitive with those who have a headstart on them.

What will that scenario look like in another 6 months?  Very daunting to say the least for any new player looking at joining.

You were around pre-Beta for those debates we had when this very scenario was brought up.  Every fan of the game used the same line...

"Don't worry about it, with skill decay it will all even out and newcomers will be able to catch up very quickly."

Well... Aventurine decided to pull a fast one on you guys and pulled the rug out from under you. 

For whatever reason skill decay got canned. 

So, now we are at the point where the very scenario that some of us said would become a problem... is indeed a problem. 

Originally posted by StrixMaxima

Originally posted by Trenchgun

Darkfall is best understood as a triangle system: Player skil and teamwork, skill level, and equipment. A triangle system because each element can have just as much impact on the battle as the others. Player skill is not everything, nor should it be in a game like this, but it's also not a game where levels and equipment alone decide battles.

Someone with uber equipment but no skill level to back it up is just asking to lose it.

Someone with high skill level can be beaten if they can't hit the broad side of a barn, make stupid tactical decisions, or fail to work as a group when facing other groups.

Someone with high individual skill and excellent teamwork can still be beaten if they are seriously outgunned in skill levels and/or equipment.

 

These are the basic premises of almost all MMOs. However, where DFO fails short is not providing lots of options/diversity to stimulate the "risk vs. reward" equation to work.

Newcomers who do not yet understand the whole gist of the game get constantly pwned, without any chance of defense. As such, they imagine that the problem is skill points. So, they go ahead and grind their brains out. Many will get disgruntled during this period, and will leave. Others will realize that all that time sink in the end provided a small advantage, but is it worth it?

Wrong. Dead wrong. Most MMOs are almost entirely level based, where the difference of one or two levels can be everything. And once you're max level in those MMOs it all comes down to equipment more than anything else. Grinding to 80 to WoW and then grinding out epic raid gear is no different, it's just a more interesting grind. And unlike WoW, you can be effective in DF without having to reach the level cap because equipment is more balanced and individual skill and teamwork plays a larger role in combat than raw levels.

Personal Risk vs Reward is also completely nonexistant in virtually every other MMO.

Originally posted by Trenchgun

Originally posted by StrixMaxima

Originally posted by Trenchgun

Darkfall is best understood as a triangle system: Player skil and teamwork, skill level, and equipment. A triangle system because each element can have just as much impact on the battle as the others. Player skill is not everything, nor should it be in a game like this, but it's also not a game where levels and equipment alone decide battles.

Someone with uber equipment but no skill level to back it up is just asking to lose it.

Someone with high skill level can be beaten if they can't hit the broad side of a barn, make stupid tactical decisions, or fail to work as a group when facing other groups.

Someone with high individual skill and excellent teamwork can still be beaten if they are seriously outgunned in skill levels and/or equipment.

 

These are the basic premises of almost all MMOs. However, where DFO fails short is not providing lots of options/diversity to stimulate the "risk vs. reward" equation to work.

Newcomers who do not yet understand the whole gist of the game get constantly pwned, without any chance of defense. As such, they imagine that the problem is skill points. So, they go ahead and grind their brains out. Many will get disgruntled during this period, and will leave. Others will realize that all that time sink in the end provided a small advantage, but is it worth it?

Wrong. Dead wrong. Most MMOs are almost entirely level based, where the difference of one or two levels can be everything. And once you're max level in those MMOs it all comes down to equipment more than anything else. Grinding to 80 to WoW and then grinding out epic raid gear is no different, it's just a more interesting grind. And unlike WoW, you can be effective in DF without having to reach the level cap because equipment is more balanced and individual skill and teamwork plays a larger role in combat than raw levels.

Personal Risk vs Reward is also completely nonexistant in virtually every other MMO.

 

Hm, but DFO is also level-based. It simply hides this fact into the skill mechanics. Or do you disagree with that?

About the gear/WoW bit, it seems to me that you are mixing PvE and PvP up. If we use as an example another PvP game, say, Warhammer, even if you are of a lower level than the opposition, you still have the chance to defeat them. This is rigorously the same with DFO. In every PvP, power is in numbers and in minimal coordination. DFO is no exception. Raw skill levels in DFO also matter, and matter a lot. depending on the percentile you are in, there are some clear advantages over thos who don't.

It's dangerous to say that "equipment is more balanced and individual skill and teamwork plays a larger role in combat than raw levels". Equipment effectiveness can vary a lot between titles. It's heavier in some, lighter in others, usually dictated by the inclination of the game (PvE tends to be more equipment-dependent than PvP, in general).

I agree that most MMOs do not have a good Risk vs. Reward system (with some notable exceptions, like EVE). That was one of the reasons I was eager to play DFO. Sadly, it turned out to be much less that what was sold to me, over the years.

Originally posted by xzyax

Originally posted by daarco

 Yes, i did try me best. 

Player skill is important, and stats are important. Remove one of them and you will be first looser. So macroing a skill wont raise player skill, so you will fail in the end agenst a good player (wich have done both). 

 

You didn't address the main issue though daarco.

 

The more time that passes the bigger the problem becomes.  Right now, a newbie joining DarkFall is looking at quite an uphill climb if they want to be competitive with those who have a headstart on them.

What will that scenario look like in another 6 months?  Very daunting to say the least for any new player looking at joining.

 

You were around pre-Beta for those debates we had when this very scenario was brought up.  Every fan of the game used the same line...

"Don't worry about it, with skill decay it will all even out and newcomers will be able to catch up very quickly."

Well... Aventurine decided to pull a fast one on you guys and pulled the rug out from under you. 

For whatever reason skill decay got canned. 

 

So, now we are at the point where the very scenario that some of us said would become a problem... is indeed a problem. 

But this is the real issue for me. How come everyone believe everyone is just into the game to max out some stats.  Play and have fun. Some fights you will win, and some you will lose. And sometimes noobs will kill you, and sometimes a vet will get owned by you.  

And trust me, you will notice the difference when you meet a skilled player or a player (character) with high stats. 

So for me its no problem. I have trouble understanding how this can be something to debate about. Its the same for everyone. You decide how good you wanna become. Then become it : )

 Player skill does matter A LOT in this game. I am serious. Even though I have 100 fire magic, 100 earth magic, and other extra schools, I lose a lot because I don't go out and PVP that much. I've lost to people with less magic than me because I'm not that good. I'm not saying that I suck, really, I am decent but against people who PVP a lot (which is obvious from how they play), I lose. I've been training too much and not practicing with the results from my training.

I been playing DF hardcore for like 25 days now. the stats vs skill situation its alot worse than I thought. its alot worse than "carebear" mmo's like aoc (in aoc I killed max lvls on lvl 60 chars). its prolly worse than games like wow because to max a char in DF takes alot longer than most MMO's. the diff between a max DF char and newbie is less but still massive.

there are chars in EU1 anyway which nobody can touch. its partly that they are very talented at the game but mostly because thier skills are maxed. they can prolly take on whole guilds easily, because of things like friendly fire and stuff. they take like 5 damage have way more hp than you and hit about 10/20 times as hard.

a new player just cannot compete in DF pvp. and since the game is focused around pvp it kills the fun really. also it kills the whole game really because you can't really group pve, 1 maxed skill red will hear you straight away and wipe your group. DF is one my fav games, but this really kills most the fun in it for me. I'm glad MO is not going to have much grind. MO looks very alpha right now so I may be playing DF for a while yet.

oh I've got like 60 archery, 60 polearm, 20 firemagic. but its skills like weapon mastery, rigor, rigor mastery etc. which exploiters have maxed which really makes them untouchable as regular players will never max these skills and they make too much difference.

Originally posted by daarco

 Yes, i did try me best. 

Player skill is important, and stats are important. Remove one of them and you will be first looser. So macroing a skill wont raise player skill, so you will fail in the end agenst a good player (wich have done both). 

Exactly. Bloodwalling is a good example. When people bloodwall, they are only increasing their skill level. They are not learning to aim accurately, move tactically, and master other mechanics of DFO combat. They skill up with an overinflated idea of how good they are and it makes them a great source of loot for people like me who focused on learning to engage in combat well.

Besides, after a few ganks, its fun to watch them rage quit in chat.

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Originally posted by DarthRaiden

If you dont like MMORPG's there are plenty of action games out there for you to play. In MMORPG's however player accumulate skills and stats over time and are able to use them.

 

oO, if you like MMORPG's DFO is NOT the game for you oO. DFO took the char progression system removed the normal factors that limit the gring, increased them then decided to leave out the rest of the RPG aspect. DFO pretty much is a battle arena style world with char skill progression and thats it. The RPG element is missing almost completely.

So, DarkFall is a MMOFPS instead of Shooter, Slasher? WOW u got ripped, could be playing Dark messaih multiplayer for free. LOL!

EverQuest Classic. Will be amazing.

Enough said.

What was the purpose with this thread again??

That a player that have played longer have a better chance of beating someone that is newer, or what? Isnt that kinda obvious. Does that not apply to everythingin life?

Originally posted by daarco

What was the purpose with this thread again??

That a player that have played longer have a better chance of beating someone that is newer, or what? Isnt that kinda obvious. Does that not apply to everythingin life?

Yeah it's ridiculous. But I just tried to see how my 6+ month character would do outside a starter city. These naked newbies came running at me only to run back to the NPC city after less than a minute and I still had at least 4/5 hp left. But that was only because I pick them off one by one when the others are running around trying to catch me.

EDIT: But that's how it should be, these newbies who have barely played should lose to me when I play all the time.

Originally posted by daarco

What was the purpose with this thread again??

That a player that have played longer have a better chance of beating someone that is newer, or what? Isnt that kinda obvious. Does that not apply to everythingin life?

LOL...

And you just keep on spinnin' don't you.

How conveniently rabid fans forget things they've said when they're proven incorrect. How swiftly they go into spin mode.

Is anyone keeping count of how many times they've done this now since the game "launched"? I'd love to know what it's up to.

As a reminder...  since before launch, the rabid fans insisted that skills and/or stats (depending on the given post) would not be the deciding factor in who wins a fight... That in DF, player skill in a FPS environment would be key. That a more skilled player would beat someone with better stats, etc in DF... that skill decay would ensure that no one becomes too powerful, etc. etc.

Remember those claims? I sure do.

I also remember how anyone who said otherwise was deemed a "hater" and "troll".

And yet, here we are - yet *again* - where the so-called "haters" and "trolls" are being proven correct.

And what do you rabid fans do? True to character, without missing a beat, you do a complete 180 and change your entire story around... just like you've done so many times before, and like you will, no doubt, do so many times again.

Despite the complete predictability of it, it never ceases to amaze me that you people might seriously think you're putting one over on anyone.

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by daarco

What was the purpose with this thread again??

That a player that have played longer have a better chance of beating someone that is newer, or what? Isnt that kinda obvious. Does that not apply to everythingin life?

LOL...

And you just keep on spinnin' don't you.

How conveniently rabid fans forget things they've said when they're proven incorrect. How swiftly they go into spin mode.

Is anyone keeping count of how many times they've done this now since the game "launched"? I'd love to know what it's up to.

As a reminder...  since before launch, the rabid fans insisted that skills and/or stats (depending on the given post) would not be the deciding factor in who wins a fight... That in DF, player skill in a FPS environment would be key. That a more skilled player would beat someone with better stats, etc in DF... that skill decay would ensure that no one becomes too powerful, etc. etc.

Remember those claims? I sure do.

I also remember how anyone who said otherwise was deemed a "hater" and "troll".

And yet, here we are - yet *again* - where the so-called "haters" and "trolls" are being proven correct.

And what do you rabid fans do? True to character, without missing a beat, you do a complete 180 and change your entire story around... just like you've done so many times before, and like you will, no doubt, do so many times again.

Despite the complete predictability of it, it never ceases to amaze me that you people might seriously think you're putting one over on anyone.

 

 

In point of fact, skill and gear level is not the deciding factor, but of course it is a factor and should be.    A skilled pvpr can kill one who wears better armor and has high combat/spell skill, and the reverse is true.    Some of you would complain if gear and combat/mage skill level didn't matter, and again if it does matter.   Either way, those who like to complain will find a reason.   dearco is spot on about lack of substance to this thread.

With regard to skill decay, soft caps, hard caps; more than likely AV is moving on those ideas in the same manner its moved on so many others since release; slowly, carefully, and calculated, to ensure what they do makes the game better, not worse.    Another point in fact is every single patch since release has improved DFO and with the recent post today from the Devs. on the patch coming this week, and work in progress for next major update, DFO is fine and getting finer.

If you are so convinced that player skill makes little difference in DFO, how about explaining exactly what your experience was, how the fights went down, etc., to lead you to that view.     I play the game daily, lose and win, and the player combat/spell skill and gear is not even close to the deciding factor in the outcome of the fight, but certainly a contributing one, just as it should be in any RPG depending the severity of the difference between the players related development.   Obviously a day 1 newbie isn't going to have much of a chance against a high end player, but to use that obvious common sense notion as an example of a poorly balanced game is absurd, since the shades of grey in-between are many.

PS: What's with using terms like "Rabid FanboI"?   What does that make you, a "Rabid Unfanboi"?   These words are useless and usually used when the person using them has no detail to support a point of view.  It's like telling a person they are "whining" or the many other hot buttons on the Internet which is so old at this point, any intelligent person doesn't give those using it much credibility.

-CC

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by daarco

What was the purpose with this thread again??

That a player that have played longer have a better chance of beating someone that is newer, or what? Isnt that kinda obvious. Does that not apply to everythingin life?

LOL...

And you just keep on spinnin' don't you.

How conveniently rabid fans forget things they've said when they're proven incorrect. How swiftly they go into spin mode.

Is anyone keeping count of how many times they've done this now since the game "launched"? I'd love to know what it's up to.

As a reminder...  since before launch, the rabid fans insisted that skills and/or stats (depending on the given post) would not be the deciding factor in who wins a fight... That in DF, player skill in a FPS environment would be key. That a more skilled player would beat someone with better stats, etc in DF... that skill decay would ensure that no one becomes too powerful, etc. etc.

Remember those claims? I sure do.

I also remember how anyone who said otherwise was deemed a "hater" and "troll".

And yet, here we are - yet *again* - where the so-called "haters" and "trolls" are being proven correct.

And what do you rabid fans do? True to character, without missing a beat, you do a complete 180 and change your entire story around... just like you've done so many times before, and like you will, no doubt, do so many times again.

Despite the complete predictability of it, it never ceases to amaze me that you people might seriously think you're putting one over on anyone.

 

 

What is your definition of a rabid fan? Not anyone who plays the game right? Because that would show how lame you are

I think this thread "originated" (lol) från the very old "statement from Tasos, when he got the question how many noob it would take to kill of a vet. And he answered about four.

A normal person understands what he ment by that. And some others would go "damn, four noobs can kill a vet!" If i would have to explain what it really means. Then we a lot to explain here. And i have no time for that now.

Originally posted by ChinaCat

 

 

In point of fact, skill and gear level is not the deciding factor, but of course it is a factor and should be.    A skilled pvpr can kill one who wears better armor and has high combat/spell skill, and the reverse is true.    Some of you would complain if gear and combat/mage skill level didn't matter, and again if it does matter.   Either way, those who like to complain will find a reason.   dearco is spot on about lack of substance to this thread.

With regard to skill decay, soft caps, hard caps; more than likely AV is moving on those ideas in the same manner its moved on so many others since release; slowly, carefully, and calculated, to ensure what they do makes the game better, not worse.    Another point in fact is every single patch since release has improved DFO and with the recent post today from the Devs. on the patch coming this week, and work in progress for next major update, DFO is fine and getting finer.

If you are so convinced that player skill makes little difference in DFO, how about explaining exactly what your experience was, how the fights went down, etc., to lead you to that view.     I play the game daily, lose and win, and the player combat/spell skill and gear is not even close to the deciding factor in the outcome of the fight, but certainly a contributing one, just as it should be in any RPG depending the severity of the difference between the players related development.   Obviously a day 1 newbie isn't going to have much of a chance against a high end player, but to use that obvious common sense notion as an example of a poorly balanced game is absurd, since the shades of grey in-between are many.

PS: What's with using terms like "Rabid FanboI"?   What does that make you, a "Rabid Unfanboi"?   These words are useless and usually used when the person using them has no detail to support a point of view.  It's like telling a person they are "whining" or the many other hot buttons on the Internet which is so old at this point, any intelligent person doesn't give those using it much credibility.

-CC

LOL!!

You're talking to the wrong person.

I'm not the one who was claiming "Player Skill in FPS will be the deciding factor in DF, not Stats...", to now turn around and act like it was never said.

I'm addressing how certain rabid fans are doing their usual routine of changing their argument when their original one doesn't pan out in their favor.

Specifically...
For *months* it was insisted that stats and such in DF wouldn't be the deciding factor in PvP, that Player Skill in FPS style combat would be. They went on to say the only people complaining about it are those who suck at FPS and would get pwned, etc. etc.

It's since been proven that player skill alone does not have the degree of influence in a fight as was insisted for so long. So, now certain rabid fans are doing the "Darkfall Reversal" and changing their argument... as they typically do anytime things don't pan out in DF the way Tasos and/or they have claimed it would. 

As to your little psycho-analysis at the end about why I use "rabid fan"... Allow me to explain so you can lay your flawed theories to rest...

I use the term to refer to those select fans who - like the example in this post - will defend DF, Tasos and AV to any end. They will change their arguments, contradict themselves all day long, spin facts, invent new definitions for already defined terms, move goal posts... and on and on, to do so. Their attempts are often the source of much entertainment on these forums.

When presented facts, quotes and specific examples contradicting their claims, they will never admit being wrong, or that DF is anything less than everything they want it to be. They refuse to look at the game or the developers critically. They do everything in their power to avoid it, and attack anyone else who does - even other players.

I use that term because there are certain fans here who are *not* like that. Who do play and enjoy the game but can look at it critically, who will point out issues in the game, or with the way it's managed, etc. Not coincidentally, those fans are often called "haters" by the rabid fans as well.

If I were to refer to rabid fans merely as "fans", I could be mistakenly be taken (and have been) to be including those who don't belong in that category, and I know there are those who don't belong there.

It's a pretty clear distinction. But to be clear... I don't refer to anyone who likes DF to be a "rabid fan". Only those who fit the specific description I gave here.

As for not having anything to argue? Oh, not true. The rabid fans provide plenty to work with.

Couple examples...
1. Rabid fans once claimed "A". "A" has since been proven untrue, so rabid fans swiftly change their argument to "B", contradicting themself in the process.
2. Rabid fans make a broad claim about DF compared to other games. I (and others) know that claim is false and provide proof to show the flaw in their argument. Rabid fans swiftly move the goal post - changing the terms of their claims - to try and avoid being proven wrong.
... the examples go on and on...

Hope that clears it up for you :).

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by ChinaCat

 

 

In point of fact, skill and gear level is not the deciding factor, but of course it is a factor and should be.    A skilled pvpr can kill one who wears better armor and has high combat/spell skill, and the reverse is true.    Some of you would complain if gear and combat/mage skill level didn't matter, and again if it does matter.   Either way, those who like to complain will find a reason.   dearco is spot on about lack of substance to this thread.

With regard to skill decay, soft caps, hard caps; more than likely AV is moving on those ideas in the same manner its moved on so many others since release; slowly, carefully, and calculated, to ensure what they do makes the game better, not worse.    Another point in fact is every single patch since release has improved DFO and with the recent post today from the Devs. on the patch coming this week, and work in progress for next major update, DFO is fine and getting finer.

If you are so convinced that player skill makes little difference in DFO, how about explaining exactly what your experience was, how the fights went down, etc., to lead you to that view.     I play the game daily, lose and win, and the player combat/spell skill and gear is not even close to the deciding factor in the outcome of the fight, but certainly a contributing one, just as it should be in any RPG depending the severity of the difference between the players related development.   Obviously a day 1 newbie isn't going to have much of a chance against a high end player, but to use that obvious common sense notion as an example of a poorly balanced game is absurd, since the shades of grey in-between are many.

PS: What's with using terms like "Rabid FanboI"?   What does that make you, a "Rabid Unfanboi"?   These words are useless and usually used when the person using them has no detail to support a point of view.  It's like telling a person they are "whining" or the many other hot buttons on the Internet which is so old at this point, any intelligent person doesn't give those using it much credibility.

-CC

LOL!!

You're talking to the wrong person.

I'm not the one who was claiming "Player Skill in FPS will be the deciding factor in DF, not Stats...", to now turn around and act like it was never said.

I'm addressing how certain rabid fans are doing their usual routine of changing their argument when their original one doesn't pan out in their favor.

Specifically...
For *months* it was insisted that stats and such in DF wouldn't be the deciding factor in PvP, that Player Skill in FPS style combat would be. They went on to say the only people complaining about it are those who suck at FPS and would get pwned, etc. etc.

It's since been proven that player skill alone does not have the degree of influence in a fight as was insisted for so long. So, now certain rabid fans are doing the "Darkfall Reversal" and changing their argument... as they typically do anytime things don't pan out in DF the way Tasos and/or they have claimed it would. 

As to your little psycho-analysis at the end about why I use "rabid fan"... Allow me to explain so you can lay your flawed theories to rest...

I use the term to refer to those select fans who - like the example in this post - will defend DF, Tasos and AV to any end. They will change their arguments, contradict themselves all day long, spin facts, invent new definitions for already defined terms, move goal posts... and on and on, to do so. Their attempts are often the source of much entertainment on these forums.

When presented facts, quotes and specific examples contradicting their claims, they will never admit being wrong, or that DF is anything less than everything they want it to be. They refuse to look at the game or the developers critically. They do everything in their power to avoid it, and attack anyone else who does - even other players.

I use that term because there are certain fans here who are *not* like that. Who do play and enjoy the game but can look at it critically, who will point out issues in the game, or with the way it's managed, etc. Not coincidentally, those fans are often called "haters" by the rabid fans as well.

If I were to refer to rabid fans merely as "fans", I could be mistakenly be taken (and have been) to be including those who don't belong in that category, and I know there are those who don't belong there.

It's a pretty clear distinction. But to be clear... I don't refer to anyone who likes DF to be a "rabid fan". Only those who fit the specific description I gave here.

As for not having anything to argue? Oh, not true. The rabid fans provide plenty to work with.

Couple examples...
1. Rabid fans once claimed "A". "A" has since been proven untrue, so rabid fans swiftly change their argument to "B", contradicting themself in the process.
2. Rabid fans make a broad claim about DF compared to other games. I (and others) know that claim is false and provide proof to show the flaw in their argument. Rabid fans swiftly move the goal post - changing the terms of their claims - to try and avoid being proven wrong.
... the examples go on and on...

Hope that clears it up for you :).

But what is the problem with DF then?

No matter what your stats are, it wont help you to hit with a arrow or spell. If im not wrong, isnt it impossible in WoW to hurt a maxlevel if you are a level one character? You will only get the "miss" "dodge" "parry" all the time. In DF there is nothing that helps the "full stats character". 

So what we need in DF is player skill, stats and gear. Not even then is it 100% safe to fight  agenst a noob.  But its still much better from most other MMOs, were a vet can kill of lowlevels without beeing in danger. So shouldent we talk about those games instead? DF is atleast trying to take away the vets "power" : )

But i think you have misunderstood darkfall. You think stats are the only reason if you will win or loose. Nothing could be more far from the real deal.