Originally posted by Death1942

you admit you don't understand their system and then go on to post another 200+ words on how the system works....

 

you people need to get your facts straight and get evidence before posting on these forums.  Still if it is true then i can see your point.

It's very true, do some research for yourself and don't expect everyone to spoon feed you. Having to argue the same points over and over and over and over and over and over again with someone that pops out of the woodwork is both tiring and very suspicious.

Originally posted by vazghoul666

Tons of posts all contain the bickering back and forth between skill and stats which is better.  Darkfall uses a decimal system for their weapons and armor, for example a rank 0 sword has .36 damage and a chain breastplate has 1.22 slashing protection(not exact figures).  Now a rank 40 sword has say .56 damage, upon first look this seems irrelevant and leads the population to say look at this the gear doesnt make much difference the damage increase from rank to rank is to small to matter.  Now im not a math wizard and i dont understand their system fully but im assuming it goes something like weaponskill*str stat*weap base damage = hit damage.  You can figure this is how it is calculated by the damage increase over playtime using the same rank weapon ie weaponskill str as a new player with rank 0 vs 50 skill 30 str with a rank 0 weapon.

What does all this mean?  it means even though the fanbois like to claim the new player can win versus a seasoned player its purely bs.  They can flame and say oh but i do everyday and id like to say no you prolly think their a seasoned player because people with 75-100 skill wear banded armor just like 10-30 skill level people do.  Lets put this in even clearer perspective, char A is fairly new has 220hp and 25 weaponskill.  Player B has 280 hp and 100 weaponskill.  both are using no armor and a rank 0 sword.  Player A is hitting for around 6-13 damage depending on weapon type.  Player B is hitting for around 15-28 depending on weapontype.  Even if player A is really coordinated and Player B is a Mental retard with one arm, the fight will most likely go to the person hitting 3 times hard than the other specially since 28x8 kills player A while 13x25 is what it will take to kill player B.

Skill will help you in a fairly evenly stat'd match but when it comes down to which is more important stats/gear way supercedes player skill.  Theres players hitting for 50-90 with high end stats vs newbs hitting for 6-10 whos going to win?  Find a wall and autorun into it for about 2 months, and macro skills for another 2 months while you fulltime play another game so when you finally do decide to play darkfall youll at least be competitive stat wise.

My two cents rebutle if you like fanbois but you know Stats > Player skill

Lets say the noob hits for 40-60 damage and the other dude does 80-100. The noob hits the other fella with eleven hits, but the master/whatever only lands five hits!

That is what Darkfall combat is about.  Dont try and match a two minute old character with a nine months old ok. 

Originally posted by daarco

Originally posted by vazghoul666

Tons of posts all contain the bickering back and forth between skill and stats which is better.  Darkfall uses a decimal system for their weapons and armor, for example a rank 0 sword has .36 damage and a chain breastplate has 1.22 slashing protection(not exact figures).  Now a rank 40 sword has say .56 damage, upon first look this seems irrelevant and leads the population to say look at this the gear doesnt make much difference the damage increase from rank to rank is to small to matter.  Now im not a math wizard and i dont understand their system fully but im assuming it goes something like weaponskill*str stat*weap base damage = hit damage.  You can figure this is how it is calculated by the damage increase over playtime using the same rank weapon ie weaponskill str as a new player with rank 0 vs 50 skill 30 str with a rank 0 weapon.

What does all this mean?  it means even though the fanbois like to claim the new player can win versus a seasoned player its purely bs.  They can flame and say oh but i do everyday and id like to say no you prolly think their a seasoned player because people with 75-100 skill wear banded armor just like 10-30 skill level people do.  Lets put this in even clearer perspective, char A is fairly new has 220hp and 25 weaponskill.  Player B has 280 hp and 100 weaponskill.  both are using no armor and a rank 0 sword.  Player A is hitting for around 6-13 damage depending on weapon type.  Player B is hitting for around 15-28 depending on weapontype.  Even if player A is really coordinated and Player B is a Mental retard with one arm, the fight will most likely go to the person hitting 3 times hard than the other specially since 28x8 kills player A while 13x25 is what it will take to kill player B.

Skill will help you in a fairly evenly stat'd match but when it comes down to which is more important stats/gear way supercedes player skill.  Theres players hitting for 50-90 with high end stats vs newbs hitting for 6-10 whos going to win?  Find a wall and autorun into it for about 2 months, and macro skills for another 2 months while you fulltime play another game so when you finally do decide to play darkfall youll at least be competitive stat wise.

My two cents rebutle if you like fanbois but you know Stats > Player skill

 

Lets say the noob hits for 40-60 damage and the other dude does 80-100. The noob hits the other fella with eleven hits, but the master/whatever only lands five hits!

That is what Darkfall combat is about.  Dont try and match a two minute old character with a nine months old ok. 

Love the graphic support you've been supplying to these threads lately, Egotrip.  Thanks.

 Yeah, those are cool.

But they fail to adress my argument!

Originally posted by daarco

 

Lets say the noob hits for 40-60 damage and the other dude does 80-100. The noob hits the other fella with eleven hits, but the master/whatever only lands five hits!

That is what Darkfall combat is about.  Dont try and match a two minute old character with a nine months old ok. 

Are you assuming the master/whatever has a motor control disorder or what? Mouse aiming is not so difficult that you're going to improve that dramatically over time and your skills certainly won't be degenerating. The fact is the more trained toon has an almost overwhelming advantage advantage in ranged combat and a significant one in melee. Player ability is not the end all and be all people pretend.

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by daarco

 

Lets say the noob hits for 40-60 damage and the other dude does 80-100. The noob hits the other fella with eleven hits, but the master/whatever only lands five hits!

That is what Darkfall combat is about.  Dont try and match a two minute old character with a nine months old ok. 

 

Are you assuming the master/whatever has a motor control disorder or what? Mouse aiming is not so difficult that you're going to improve that dramatically over time and your skills certainly won't be degenerating. The fact is the more trained toon has an almost overwhelming advantage advantage in ranged combat and a significant one in melee. Player ability is not the end all and be all people pretend.

Of course that's the case and I'm sure everyone knows Daarco's example is a rarity, at best, assuming both players are at the keyboard and actively fighting each other (ie. one's not running away, etc).

But that's all he had available to make an argument on... so... he did his best.

 Yes, i did try me best. 

Player skill is important, and stats are important. Remove one of them and you will be first looser. So macroing a skill wont raise player skill, so you will fail in the end agenst a good player (wich have done both). 

Darkfall is best understood as a triangle system: Player skil and teamwork, skill level, and equipment. A triangle system because each element can have just as much impact on the battle as the others. Player skill is not everything, nor should it be in a game like this, but it's also not a game where levels and equipment alone decide battles.

Someone with uber equipment but no skill level to back it up is just asking to lose it.

Someone with high skill level can be beaten if they can't hit the broad side of a barn, make stupid tactical decisions, or fail to work as a group when facing other groups.

Someone with high individual skill and excellent teamwork can still be beaten if they are seriously outgunned in skill levels and/or equipment.
 

Achieving a balance is necessary, lacking in any one of these areas can lead to defeat. Player skilland teamwork is important, but naturally a level 1 naked can only do so much against a maxed out enemy in uber gear. And no matter how high your individual and level skill is, if you don't have the equipment to back it up then you're going to have a tough time taking on average but well geared players.

Raw player numbers in group vs group battles can matter, but this is not factored into the equation because raw numbers matter in every game regardless of what it's makeup is. It's a universal modifier of team vs team combat. The only question is how much does raw numbers matter. The answer is in darkfall that small elite strike forces can take on two or three times their number if they have superior equipment and coordination/tactics (assuming skill levels are not too far apart between the sides), but it's also risky because the very high level equipment they are using to gain such an advantage also means they are risking a lot by commiting themselves to a battle that may go south before they can get away. That's the best way for a system to work, risk vs reward. Most people run around in stuff they can afford to lose, which grants an advantage to people who are wlling to risk equipment that is very time intensive and expensive to acquire.

The only area where I would say that raw skill levels matter, and trump any kind of player skill or equipment, is when it comes to some high level AoE magic. There's really no way to defend yourself from it, it kills insanely quick, and the caster doesn't have to risk nearly as much in combat as a high level melee or archer.

The only limitation on such powerful magic is the fact that it takes an ungodly amount of resources and time to get to that level, but this is skewed by all the exploiting and macroing in the game which allows some players to achieve in weeks what would take others months, or in months what would take others years.

Originally posted by Trenchgun

Darkfall is best understood as a triangle system: Player skil and teamwork, skill level, and equipment. A triangle system because each element can have just as much impact on the battle as the others. Player skill is not everything, nor should it be in a game like this, but it's also not a game where levels and equipment alone decide battles.

Someone with uber equipment but no skill level to back it up is just asking to lose it.

Someone with high skill level can be beaten if they can't hit the broad side of a barn, make stupid tactical decisions, or fail to work as a group when facing other groups.

Someone with high individual skill and excellent teamwork can still be beaten if they are seriously outgunned in skill levels and/or equipment.

These are the basic premises of almost all MMOs. However, where DFO fails short is not providing lots of options/diversity to stimulate the "risk vs. reward" equation to work.

Newcomers who do not yet understand the whole gist of the game get constantly pwned, without any chance of defense. As such, they imagine that the problem is skill points. So, they go ahead and grind their brains out. Many will get disgruntled during this period, and will leave. Others will realize that all that time sink in the end provided a small advantage, but is it worth it?

Thus, what happens in the game is an evil Darwinian effect of sorts: only those who can overcome the simple "pew pew" combat, inane grinding and lack of side features will be able to have fun in the long run. And this is not good for any game. It is possible to make the game more accessible and broad, without losing the grit and "hardcoreness". However, I doubt AV will be creative enough to do so, considering their last moves.

Originally posted by daarco

 Yes, i did try me best. 

Player skill is important, and stats are important. Remove one of them and you will be first looser. So macroing a skill wont raise player skill, so you will fail in the end agenst a good player (wich have done both). 

You didn't address the main issue though daarco.

The more time that passes the bigger the problem becomes.  Right now, a newbie joining DarkFall is looking at quite an uphill climb if they want to be competitive with those who have a headstart on them.

What will that scenario look like in another 6 months?  Very daunting to say the least for any new player looking at joining.

You were around pre-Beta for those debates we had when this very scenario was brought up.  Every fan of the game used the same line...

"Don't worry about it, with skill decay it will all even out and newcomers will be able to catch up very quickly."

Well... Aventurine decided to pull a fast one on you guys and pulled the rug out from under you. 

For whatever reason skill decay got canned. 

So, now we are at the point where the very scenario that some of us said would become a problem... is indeed a problem. 

Originally posted by StrixMaxima

Originally posted by Trenchgun

Darkfall is best understood as a triangle system: Player skil and teamwork, skill level, and equipment. A triangle system because each element can have just as much impact on the battle as the others. Player skill is not everything, nor should it be in a game like this, but it's also not a game where levels and equipment alone decide battles.

Someone with uber equipment but no skill level to back it up is just asking to lose it.

Someone with high skill level can be beaten if they can't hit the broad side of a barn, make stupid tactical decisions, or fail to work as a group when facing other groups.

Someone with high individual skill and excellent teamwork can still be beaten if they are seriously outgunned in skill levels and/or equipment.

 

These are the basic premises of almost all MMOs. However, where DFO fails short is not providing lots of options/diversity to stimulate the "risk vs. reward" equation to work.

Newcomers who do not yet understand the whole gist of the game get constantly pwned, without any chance of defense. As such, they imagine that the problem is skill points. So, they go ahead and grind their brains out. Many will get disgruntled during this period, and will leave. Others will realize that all that time sink in the end provided a small advantage, but is it worth it?

Wrong. Dead wrong. Most MMOs are almost entirely level based, where the difference of one or two levels can be everything. And once you're max level in those MMOs it all comes down to equipment more than anything else. Grinding to 80 to WoW and then grinding out epic raid gear is no different, it's just a more interesting grind. And unlike WoW, you can be effective in DF without having to reach the level cap because equipment is more balanced and individual skill and teamwork plays a larger role in combat than raw levels.

Personal Risk vs Reward is also completely nonexistant in virtually every other MMO.

Originally posted by Trenchgun

Originally posted by StrixMaxima

Originally posted by Trenchgun

Darkfall is best understood as a triangle system: Player skil and teamwork, skill level, and equipment. A triangle system because each element can have just as much impact on the battle as the others. Player skill is not everything, nor should it be in a game like this, but it's also not a game where levels and equipment alone decide battles.

Someone with uber equipment but no skill level to back it up is just asking to lose it.

Someone with high skill level can be beaten if they can't hit the broad side of a barn, make stupid tactical decisions, or fail to work as a group when facing other groups.

Someone with high individual skill and excellent teamwork can still be beaten if they are seriously outgunned in skill levels and/or equipment.

 

These are the basic premises of almost all MMOs. However, where DFO fails short is not providing lots of options/diversity to stimulate the "risk vs. reward" equation to work.

Newcomers who do not yet understand the whole gist of the game get constantly pwned, without any chance of defense. As such, they imagine that the problem is skill points. So, they go ahead and grind their brains out. Many will get disgruntled during this period, and will leave. Others will realize that all that time sink in the end provided a small advantage, but is it worth it?

Wrong. Dead wrong. Most MMOs are almost entirely level based, where the difference of one or two levels can be everything. And once you're max level in those MMOs it all comes down to equipment more than anything else. Grinding to 80 to WoW and then grinding out epic raid gear is no different, it's just a more interesting grind. And unlike WoW, you can be effective in DF without having to reach the level cap because equipment is more balanced and individual skill and teamwork plays a larger role in combat than raw levels.

Personal Risk vs Reward is also completely nonexistant in virtually every other MMO.

 

Hm, but DFO is also level-based. It simply hides this fact into the skill mechanics. Or do you disagree with that?

About the gear/WoW bit, it seems to me that you are mixing PvE and PvP up. If we use as an example another PvP game, say, Warhammer, even if you are of a lower level than the opposition, you still have the chance to defeat them. This is rigorously the same with DFO. In every PvP, power is in numbers and in minimal coordination. DFO is no exception. Raw skill levels in DFO also matter, and matter a lot. depending on the percentile you are in, there are some clear advantages over thos who don't.

It's dangerous to say that "equipment is more balanced and individual skill and teamwork plays a larger role in combat than raw levels". Equipment effectiveness can vary a lot between titles. It's heavier in some, lighter in others, usually dictated by the inclination of the game (PvE tends to be more equipment-dependent than PvP, in general).

I agree that most MMOs do not have a good Risk vs. Reward system (with some notable exceptions, like EVE). That was one of the reasons I was eager to play DFO. Sadly, it turned out to be much less that what was sold to me, over the years.

Originally posted by xzyax

Originally posted by daarco

 Yes, i did try me best. 

Player skill is important, and stats are important. Remove one of them and you will be first looser. So macroing a skill wont raise player skill, so you will fail in the end agenst a good player (wich have done both). 

 

You didn't address the main issue though daarco.

 

The more time that passes the bigger the problem becomes.  Right now, a newbie joining DarkFall is looking at quite an uphill climb if they want to be competitive with those who have a headstart on them.

What will that scenario look like in another 6 months?  Very daunting to say the least for any new player looking at joining.

 

You were around pre-Beta for those debates we had when this very scenario was brought up.  Every fan of the game used the same line...

"Don't worry about it, with skill decay it will all even out and newcomers will be able to catch up very quickly."

Well... Aventurine decided to pull a fast one on you guys and pulled the rug out from under you. 

For whatever reason skill decay got canned. 

 

So, now we are at the point where the very scenario that some of us said would become a problem... is indeed a problem. 

But this is the real issue for me. How come everyone believe everyone is just into the game to max out some stats.  Play and have fun. Some fights you will win, and some you will lose. And sometimes noobs will kill you, and sometimes a vet will get owned by you.  

And trust me, you will notice the difference when you meet a skilled player or a player (character) with high stats. 

So for me its no problem. I have trouble understanding how this can be something to debate about. Its the same for everyone. You decide how good you wanna become. Then become it : )

 Player skill does matter A LOT in this game. I am serious. Even though I have 100 fire magic, 100 earth magic, and other extra schools, I lose a lot because I don't go out and PVP that much. I've lost to people with less magic than me because I'm not that good. I'm not saying that I suck, really, I am decent but against people who PVP a lot (which is obvious from how they play), I lose. I've been training too much and not practicing with the results from my training.

I been playing DF hardcore for like 25 days now. the stats vs skill situation its alot worse than I thought. its alot worse than "carebear" mmo's like aoc (in aoc I killed max lvls on lvl 60 chars). its prolly worse than games like wow because to max a char in DF takes alot longer than most MMO's. the diff between a max DF char and newbie is less but still massive.

there are chars in EU1 anyway which nobody can touch. its partly that they are very talented at the game but mostly because thier skills are maxed. they can prolly take on whole guilds easily, because of things like friendly fire and stuff. they take like 5 damage have way more hp than you and hit about 10/20 times as hard.

a new player just cannot compete in DF pvp. and since the game is focused around pvp it kills the fun really. also it kills the whole game really because you can't really group pve, 1 maxed skill red will hear you straight away and wipe your group. DF is one my fav games, but this really kills most the fun in it for me. I'm glad MO is not going to have much grind. MO looks very alpha right now so I may be playing DF for a while yet.

oh I've got like 60 archery, 60 polearm, 20 firemagic. but its skills like weapon mastery, rigor, rigor mastery etc. which exploiters have maxed which really makes them untouchable as regular players will never max these skills and they make too much difference.

Originally posted by daarco

 Yes, i did try me best. 

Player skill is important, and stats are important. Remove one of them and you will be first looser. So macroing a skill wont raise player skill, so you will fail in the end agenst a good player (wich have done both). 

Exactly. Bloodwalling is a good example. When people bloodwall, they are only increasing their skill level. They are not learning to aim accurately, move tactically, and master other mechanics of DFO combat. They skill up with an overinflated idea of how good they are and it makes them a great source of loot for people like me who focused on learning to engage in combat well.

Besides, after a few ganks, its fun to watch them rage quit in chat.

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Originally posted by DarthRaiden

If you dont like MMORPG's there are plenty of action games out there for you to play. In MMORPG's however player accumulate skills and stats over time and are able to use them.

 

oO, if you like MMORPG's DFO is NOT the game for you oO. DFO took the char progression system removed the normal factors that limit the gring, increased them then decided to leave out the rest of the RPG aspect. DFO pretty much is a battle arena style world with char skill progression and thats it. The RPG element is missing almost completely.

So, DarkFall is a MMOFPS instead of Shooter, Slasher? WOW u got ripped, could be playing Dark messaih multiplayer for free. LOL!

EverQuest Classic. Will be amazing.

Enough said.