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Originally posted by Aganazer

Well they said that the MT items in CO won't be a core element of the game either. Why are you assuming otherwise?

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CO is being designed with RMT from the start, thus the RMT mall is a core element of their game. Further, they have said costume pieces will be included in the item mall, and for a superhero game, costumes are a core element of the game.

Mainly what you get in TCG packs is a vanity pet (which a lot of people never really use) or some item that creates some effect like fireworks or something and has limited uses and then it's gone.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Cryptic IS going to be selling game-changing items.

Do I really need to quote for you again where they said that these are items that won't upset the balance of the game? Obviously you ignored it the first time so I don't know what good it would do.

Originally posted by CayneJobb

 

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Originally posted by Aganazer

 

Well they said that the MT items in CO won't be a core element of the game either. Why are you assuming otherwise?

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CO is being designed with RMT from the start, thus the RMT mall is a core element of their game. Further, they have said costume pieces will be included in the item mall, and for a superhero game, costumes are a core element of the game.

Mainly what you get in TCG packs is a vanity pet (which a lot of people never really use) or some item that creates some effect like fireworks or something and has limited uses and then it's gone.

Seeing as how I have been a part of the development of CO for the last 5 months, I think I would have noticed this 'core element' of the game. Its not there. It hasn't been a part of their game design. They may have 'plans' for it, but if it were an integral part of the design then it would be a part of the game right now, but its not.

Now DDO:EU has been designed with MT as a core element. The whole beta was about the MT shop. That is definitely a 'core element' of DDO, but its not in CO. If it were, then it would have been a part of the game's testing, don't ya think?

Vanity Pet? How do you call a permanent epic mount a vanity pet?! Again, it just blows me away how this has been right under people's noses and they never even noticed.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Sure we noticed.

Speak for yourself next time.

For me, I approach MT while having in mind the amount of time I intend to invest when I play an MMO. I usually look for MMOs with long term appeal. That to me translates to an expectation of one year subscribed as a minimum. When my expectations are met, I usually stay much longer. Sometimes I felt necessary to switch, but that was either because something better came up, or the long term appeal that I was aiming for vanished.

In this regard, RMT item mall is a prohibitive factor, as far as long term appeal is concerned. I can see how it can become appealing for people playing for a couple months and then moving on to the next fresh thing. I just don't see how an RMT shop with the underlying mechanics can reinforce the long term appeal of the game. So far all MMOs with such schemes catered to the fast served, low patience crowd.

Besides, I don't want to be held hostage six months down the line, when they see that the their subscribers are apathetic toward the RMT mall and they do add up the game altering items that for now are covered by the "if" statement.

Originally posted by Aganazer

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Cryptic IS going to be selling game-changing items.

 

Do I really need to quote for you again where they said that these are items that won't upset the balance of the game? Obviously you ignored it the first time so I don't know what good it would do.

Game companies screw up balance to create OP items/powers/classes all the time. CCG expansions do it as standard procedure. If Cryptic was interested in serving their customers, rather than screwing them for higher profits, then I could trust their future motives. Given the way they are handling their lifetime sub offer, I don't trust them in the least.

Do I have to question why a gamer would defend this RMT scam? It serves no purpose for the gamer, just the company. Now if a poster worked for Cryptic, I could see a motive for defending the practice.

MT's have been part of the MMO verse since the beginning of time.  In the US it started with UO and its "Buy a Master class" option and server transfers.  Then with Everquest  it was character transfers, renaming etc.  Yes those are micro transactions gasp!  Its expanded with SWG and WoW with vanity pets, mounts, vanity costumes etc.   And again with City of Heros adn its costume packs something they've been doing for ages and no one bitches about. 

Really the only true MT to consider viciously evil are old style Korean grinder games were the only way to progress your character is to spend money.   This is NOT that game.  You never have to spend a dime past subscription to see the entire game.

 Its not part of the progression in CO to buy costume peices.  You make your costume and you can retailor it in game but really who's going to do it that often other than a color revamp most super heros don't change their costume entirely.  

I think people hating on this game soley based on the MT are people with no idea of how it actually affects the game.  Having been in Open Beta the last few days I've not noticed one bit of difference infact if you put a person infront of the game who's never heard of the cash shop or a microtransaction they'd never notice the difference.  Quest dont depend on them and neither does progression.    So far the only items they've previewed in a thread weeks ago are vanity pets and some costume pieces all are statless and none of them change the game play experience.  Hit Random about 100 times on the character creator and please tell me when you feel shorted of costume ideas.

If this game is based around its cash shop then I'm an monkey's uncle cause the only US based game right now that I know for sure is based around cash shopping and MT is DDO after its abymsall failure as a subscription game.   I bet if Blizzards new MMO game goes to 16 dollars a month we'll see these same people cryign OMG 16 dollars what the hell? they're the same people that cried when Monthly Subs went up a dollar years ago.   We can't expect game companies to make better adn better and more expensive games without eventually looking at different pricing models or higher subs.

 How can you possibly notice (no) difference when the RMT mall is not activated even for inspection in the open beta?

Here's an example of how it seems Cryptic plans to run these things. During the last stage of closed beta, I remember one player asking on the betas forums for a jester hat, since there are costume pieces for a harlequin type costume already in the costume creator.  No hat though. However, I have seen the hat in question. It is one of the bonus items available for Amazon pre-orders, which will likely be in the Item shop, along with the dark armor helmet and the bandolier also offered. Roper himself said that the bonus items and accompanying Cryptic bucks were an enticement to get pre-orders into the Item Shop right away. Anything that is noticeably missing in the Costume Creator will no doubt be found in the RMT shop rather than be added to the game by player request.

It's all about incentive. If some are willing to pay for it, then the developers have no compulsion to add it to the non-RMT game. I'm fairly certain that Bill Roper wants to avoid the outcry that happened when the free players were given things that previously were reserved for the paid subscribers in Hellgate: London. What excapes them is, if you make a good game, people will pay to play it. If you're relying on deception and gimmicks to make money, enjoy your ride down the slippery slope.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Do I have to question why a gamer would defend this RMT scam? It serves no purpose for the gamer, just the company. Now if a poster worked for Cryptic, I could see a motive for defending the practice.

First, don't imply that anyone who would support it works for Cryptic. That's ridiculous.

Second, it can serve a purpose for the gamer. Maybe you are completely ignorant to business practice I don't know. Companies spend some of their income. A lot of what they spend goes to the production and support of their product. Some of it goes back into continued development of the product. If a company makes a lot of money then they have more to invest back into their product. If they make very little money then they probably won't invest any more money into the product.

The MT income will allow Cryptic to make more money. Some of that money will go into the development of the game. Some will go into the development of new MT shop items.

One thing I think a lot of people are worried about is that they will use subscription income to develop things that they try to sell back to you in the shop. I understand this concern, but I don't think its very well founded either. For the MT shop to be a worth while business venture then it would need to generate money. If the items in the shop cost more money to develop than they generate in income, then its would be costing more money than its making. It would be a failure and they would close the shop. The only way that the shop would remain is if it is profitable. That's how business works, right? For the MT shop to remain in business it would have to generate enough money to cover the development of its own MT shop items plus some profit for Cryptic.

So we know that the MT shop is sort of self perpetuating. It generates money without needed our sub money to operate. Not only that, but its generating game content. This content would not have existed without the MT shop income in the first place. So game content for sale is better than no game content at all, right?

Originally posted by Xasapis

 How much more pervasive do you think the RMT shop would have been if the outcry was not as strong as it is now? My guess is that they would have emulated the F2P games completely while strapping the subscription on top of that. If nothing else, this kind of negative buzz have a positive effect for the future CO players. For now.

It is only as pervasive as the market allows.  Random forum posters are a very small minority so it's not logical to cater to their opinions.  If a company thinks it can charge you $50/month and RMT, they'll do it without hesitation.  I wouldn't blame them either.  Why?  Because when it comes down to it, gaming companies produce games to make money.  

But they are also aware they can't charge any amount or they'd lose customers.  So they do research and look at past games and see how they fared with their pricing models.  RMTs are slowly creeping in.  It may not be game items but it exists elsewhere (transfers, name changes...etc).

You can try to fight it with your pocketbook and try to convince others to do the same but ultimately all of this depends upon the market.

Originally posted by LordDraekon

 

It's all about incentive. If some are willing to pay for it, then the developers have no compulsion to add it to the non-RMT game. I'm fairly certain that Bill Roper wants to avoid the outcry that happened when the free players were given things that previously were reserved for the paid subscribers in Hellgate: London. What excapes them is, if you make a good game, people will pay to play it. If you're relying on deception and gimmicks to make money, enjoy your ride down the slippery slope.

Yes. The way they have handled the lifetime sub offer tells me they don't have faith in their game to do well long-term. It doesn't matter to them that people leave due to mistreatment, or a simply bad game. The shenanigans method gets them more money, which is why they do it.

They have as much respect for their customers as a pusher does.

Originally posted by Aganazer

So we know that the MT shop is sort of self perpetuating. It generates money without needed our sub money to operate. Not only that, but its generating game content. This content would not have existed without the MT shop income in the first place. So game content for sale is better than no game content at all, right?

This will be my last reply to you, as I don't trust your motives any more than Cryptic's.

There is no guarantee than any additional profit made from the RMTs wil go into extra content. It could simply be pure profit. MMOs produce new content as the game goes on. Cryptic will be charging for stuff that other games throw in as perks to thanks customers for their loyalty (or to fight boredom).

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

This will be my last reply to you, as I don't trust your motives any more than Cryptic's. 

Haha. And what motives are those? I don't care if you don't like MT or not as a moral issue. Its mostly just ignorance that bothers me.

You know when it comes down to it, there is no guarantee that ANY money in a company will be reinvested into continued development. Blizzard is making gobs of cash on WoW. Do you think the expansions weren't developed with YOUR sub money? C'mon. Wake up and smell the capitalism. Its only common sense that a profitable game would invest more into development than a not profitable one. Its in our best interest for the game companies to be as profitable as possible. The trick for us consumers is how to get the most out of the game by spending the least.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Aganazer

Originally posted by bloodaxes

An example would be if wow would be selling mounts in a cash shop that drop from bosses, those that have 1% or less chance to drop. Would you prefer to have a unique/rare mount or let other be able to pay and get it easily?

 

LOL! The mounts you can get from the WoW TCG are epic mounts and you can't even get them from ANY boss in the game. It just blows me away how this has been right under most people's noses and they never even noticed.

Sure we noticed. I don't like that card lottery nonsense. Bad is bad, but worse is worse. Cryptic IS going to be selling game-changing items.

http://news.bigdownload.com/2009/07/16/champions-online-to-support-micro-transactions-at-launch/

"Most of them will be for non-gameplay affecting items like costume additions, action figures, and the like. You can also spend money on things like renaming one of your characters. You can also purchase items that do affect gameplay but Cryptic adds, "Any micro-transaction that has a game effect can also be earned in the game through play."

 The question is: How remarkably difficult, time-consuming, or frustrating will it be to 'earn' those items? It won't be easy, because then no one will BUY them.

 

Roper also said this:

'The idea is wanting to be able to have things there that players can get if they want to, but they don't negatively impact the balance of the game. It's not like we're expecting players to go and purchase things through micro-transactions that then give them some huge leg up. All those things I think people get worried about, but really the focus is on having things that are fun, cosmetic or are things that are more account-wide and maintenance based.'"
 

Originally posted by junzo316

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Aganazer

Originally posted by bloodaxes

An example would be if wow would be selling mounts in a cash shop that drop from bosses, those that have 1% or less chance to drop. Would you prefer to have a unique/rare mount or let other be able to pay and get it easily?

 

LOL! The mounts you can get from the WoW TCG are epic mounts and you can't even get them from ANY boss in the game. It just blows me away how this has been right under most people's noses and they never even noticed.

Sure we noticed. I don't like that card lottery nonsense. Bad is bad, but worse is worse. Cryptic IS going to be selling game-changing items.

http://news.bigdownload.com/2009/07/16/champions-online-to-support-micro-transactions-at-launch/

"Most of them will be for non-gameplay affecting items like costume additions, action figures, and the like. You can also spend money on things like renaming one of your characters. You can also purchase items that do affect gameplay but Cryptic adds, "Any micro-transaction that has a game effect can also be earned in the game through play."

 The question is: How remarkably difficult, time-consuming, or frustrating will it be to 'earn' those items? It won't be easy, because then no one will BUY them.

 

Roper also said this:

 

'The idea is wanting to be able to have things there that players can get if they want to, but they don't negatively impact the balance of the game. It's not like we're expecting players to go and purchase things through micro-transactions that then give them some huge leg up. All those things I think people get worried about, but really the focus is on having things that are fun, cosmetic or are things that are more account-wide and maintenance based.'"
 

 

 

 

If people buy items that have gameplay effects, it negatively effects the balance if I haven't had the time to actually earn it in the game yet and they beat me in PvP because of their increased stat boosts or extra effects or whatever it ends up being.

Originally posted by TheStarheart

Originally posted by junzo316

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Aganazer

Originally posted by bloodaxes

An example would be if wow would be selling mounts in a cash shop that drop from bosses, those that have 1% or less chance to drop. Would you prefer to have a unique/rare mount or let other be able to pay and get it easily?

 

LOL! The mounts you can get from the WoW TCG are epic mounts and you can't even get them from ANY boss in the game. It just blows me away how this has been right under most people's noses and they never even noticed.

Sure we noticed. I don't like that card lottery nonsense. Bad is bad, but worse is worse. Cryptic IS going to be selling game-changing items.

http://news.bigdownload.com/2009/07/16/champions-online-to-support-micro-transactions-at-launch/

"Most of them will be for non-gameplay affecting items like costume additions, action figures, and the like. You can also spend money on things like renaming one of your characters. You can also purchase items that do affect gameplay but Cryptic adds, "Any micro-transaction that has a game effect can also be earned in the game through play."

 The question is: How remarkably difficult, time-consuming, or frustrating will it be to 'earn' those items? It won't be easy, because then no one will BUY them.

 

Roper also said this:

 

'The idea is wanting to be able to have things there that players can get if they want to, but they don't negatively impact the balance of the game. It's not like we're expecting players to go and purchase things through micro-transactions that then give them some huge leg up. All those things I think people get worried about, but really the focus is on having things that are fun, cosmetic or are things that are more account-wide and maintenance based.'"
 

 

 

 

If people buy items that have gameplay effects, it negatively effects the balance if I haven't had the time to actually earn it in the game yet and they beat me in PvP because of their increased stat boosts or extra effects or whatever it ends up being.

Well, if we are to believe the quote, then those items will not be for sale.  All we can do is assume, though.  Only Cryptic knows whats going to be available on the RMT.  Guess its a waiting game to see if MMO Doubter is nuts or correct.

I for one will be staying away from this game. I have a feeling its going to go up in flames like their other titles. So why waste the money right?

Me and my friends and the friends of my friends all are against item shops.  I know some people that are going to try this game but the literal second they put in any item that helps people lvl faster or gives them stat boosts or gear their going to quit.

Originally posted by Aganazer 

...

 For the MT shop to be a worth while business venture then it would need to generate money. If the items in the shop cost more money to develop than they generate in income, then its would be costing more money than its making. It would be a failure and they would close the shop. The only way that the shop would remain is if it is profitable. That's how business works, right? For the MT shop to remain in business it would have to generate enough money to cover the development of its own MT shop items plus some profit for Cryptic.

....

That's exactly the core problem with the RMT though. In order to be viable and profitable, not only will it take resources from the core game (which is under debate on whether they would have been available or not without the RMT), but the core game itself needs to be tuned in such a way so as the RMT items to be deemed necessary. And the best way to do it is to make the items in the RMT appealing somewhere down the line and not right away.

Originally posted by renshu1287

I for one will be staying away from this game. I have a feeling its going to go up in flames like their other titles. So why waste the money right?

CoX went up in flames?  I don't see any other titles Cryptic has put out.

Didn't Cryptic put out a buttload of content for CoX at no additional cost?  Compared to other MMOs, how many expansion packs did you have to buy for CoX?  I find it difficult to believe that the company will do a 180 on its business model.

Originally posted by Xasapis

In order to be viable and profitable, not only will it take resources from the core game

That is the basic idea that I don't agree with. If the MT shop was consuming resources from the core game then it would be a failure and the shop would close. Why would they want it if it reduced their overall game income?

You don't add a business model unless it operates under a positive balance. It would need to be self sufficient (or better) for it to be a viable business model. I've never seen a store that could stay in business unless it had more income than costs. Development of the MT items is one of those costs.

If the MT shop operates on a positive balance then your sub money has nothing to do with the content in the shop. The content in the shop is developed with shop money. It wouldn't ever have existed if the game were sub only with no shop. In the end, all it does is give us more options.

Its almost like lifetime sub option. If Cryptic were to have never offered the lifetime sub at all, what would have been the difference? People would then be paying monthly and many of them would have paid more. What the lifetime sub option did was give us consumers another option. We can of course, not purchase it and we would be none the better for it. When given the choice I would rather have more options rather than less. I can decide for myself if its worth the purchase.

Originally posted by Aganazer

The MT income will allow Cryptic to make more money. Some of that money will go into the development of the game. Some will go into the development of new MT shop items.

Sorry, I can't buy that for one second.  Most of the RMT schemes I have seen thrust on games lately have produced nothing above and beyond what is normally turned out.  In fact it looks to have normal developer time redirected away from making support content to that of making additional sales content.

If a developer needs more money to create more, then raise the subscription price and show people what they are getting for those extra dollars.  Lay out a plan and detail it.  No more of this bullshit that is will somehow enable them to do more in some unknown theoretical way. 

I don't see any details about how the extra money from RMT will help cryptic make a better game.  I don't see any additional benefits to players over that of a game which gives 100% access with a normal subscription fee. 

The end result is that RMT encourages developers to remove content from the game and hold it hostage for a price.  There is no benefit to players in this.  None.  Developers just want more money and they are willing to say anything to get it.

Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by Aganazer

The MT income will allow Cryptic to make more money. Some of that money will go into the development of the game. Some will go into the development of new MT shop items.

 

Sorry, I can't buy that for one second.  Most of the RMT schemes I have seen thrust on games lately have produced nothing above and beyond what is normally turned out.  In fact it looks to have normal developer time redirected away from making support content to that of making additional sales content.

If a developer needs more money to create more, then raise the subscription price and show people what they are getting for those extra dollars.  Lay out a plan and detail it.  No more of this bullshit that is will somehow enable them to do more in some unknown theoretical way. 

I don't see any details about how the extra money from RMT will help cryptic make a better game.  I don't see any additional benefits to players over that of a game which gives 100% access with a normal subscription fee. 

 

The end result is that RMT encourages developers to remove content from the game and hold it hostage for a price.  There is no benefit to players in this.  None.  Developers just want more money and they are willing to say anything to get it.

 

 

Reading through this thread, these are the same arguments I've made countless times against many an opponent on the CO boards AND these MMORPG boards -- but lets just cut to the chase here and just say what everyone is really wanting to say.

I don't want to pay more then a monthly subscription for items that really should be included in the game I paid for.

Or lets refine it to : I don't want to pay more.

Microtransactions for subscription games is a gray area.  Noone likes it, but its kind of in the middle,  some people that like playing the game see's another character with an item or costume piece.... they don't want to spend the money, but they really like it.  They wonder to themselves "Why oh why do they charge extra for that?"  and the simple answer is -- to make you want to buy it.

And that isn't revenue, its greed.  They can toss out a mini expansions or costume packs which muddies the MT feel and makes it seem more like a complete content pack then nickel and dime costume pieces and items.  I don't like saying "my subscription game has an item mall"   ... and really, who would like saying that?

So yeah, aganazer, maybe the money comes back to them for development, maybe they get that new pony they wanted as a child..  but I know one thing is for sure.  If you give me a choice between pay or free... I'll happily take free --- thats why we argue.

Originally posted by maskedweasel

And that isn't revenue, its greed.  

Hate to tell you but all companies run on greed.  Greed.  Profit.  Revenue.  it's all the same.  The goal is to rake in as much as possible.  Now you typically rake in the most amount of money if you satisfy your customer base.  If you upset them, then yes, you lose money.

Companies are not some benevolent entities that want to bring happiness in your life by developing wonderful games. Development of quality games are the result of wanting to make lots of money.  

People here are discussing how RMT + Subs are unacceptable.  Perhaps.  The marketplace will determine that.  If people keep buying CO then the market has decided it is acceptable.  If people don't buy it and Cryptic fails, then the market has also spoken. What I find curious is how people label said developers as evil conspirators whose only goal is to drain every penny from every gamer's pocket.  They are just normal people who want to make as much money as possible.  We all do.  And we try different ways to maximize our own profit.  

I am not justifying RMT/Sub Models.  Everyone has a tolerance level of how much they are willing to spend.  Cryptic is testing those waters.  I say, power to them if they can make more money.  If they end up messing up their game because of it?  Better luck next time and try a less controversial method of raising revenue.

Originally posted by SpectralHunt

Originally posted by maskedweasel

And that isn't revenue, its greed.  

Hate to tell you but all companies run on greed.  Greed.  Profit.  Revenue.  it's all the same.  The goal is to rake in as much as possible.  Now you typically rake in the most amount of money if you satisfy your customer base.  If you upset them, then yes, you lose money.

Companies are not some benevolent entities that want to bring happiness in your life by developing wonderful games. Development of quality games are the result of wanting to make lots of money.  

People here are discussing how RMT + Subs are unacceptable.  Perhaps.  The marketplace will determine that.  If people keep buying CO then the market has decided it is acceptable.  If people don't buy it and Cryptic fails, then the market has also spoken. What I find curious is how people label said developers as evil conspirators whose only goal is to drain every penny from every gamer's pocket.  They are just normal people who want to make as much money as possible.  We all do.  And we try different ways to maximize our own profit.  

I am not justifying RMT/Sub Models.  Everyone has a tolerance level of how much they are willing to spend.  Cryptic is testing those waters.  I say, power to them if they can make more money.  If they end up messing up their game because of it?  Better luck next time and try a less controversial method of raising revenue.

Hey don't get me wrong, I didn't say Cryptic is the only greedy company, I know what it is, and I'm just pointing it out.  A lot of people get it twisted and think cryptic is adding microtransactions for their benefit.  Thats not the truth.  Whether you like it or hate it, at least know what it is that you are liking or hating.    Its funny to me to see some people wanting to justify MTs to make the game seem more crowd pleasing.....   hey if you can put up with MTs, thats fine, but it was never "cool" to have MTs.