No one has defined what next gen is, and if a game does come that is next gen, no one would really know . With that said, the character costumization from looks to skills to stats is pretty robust and I would consider that a push forward to letting gamers have almost complete control of what character will achieve.

Special efx have been raised with game, partical efx ect, all are of what I would call "now gen" which means most mmo devs won't use single player efxs because of frame rates,  but in a fps it runs fine, it is "now gen" tech that is being pushed intot he game. Next gen , I think would be to soon for mmo's.

What eve is doing is next gen, with the fps inside the space mmo having one persistent world, even though I'm not going to play it, it will be deemed the corner stone of future gaming.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Not seeing "Blocking" as being particularly next generation.  DAOC had not only blocking with a shield but parrying with a sword, and it gave players countermoves if someone did chose to block or parry you.  Perhaps Champions is more FPS like in its responses, but its certainly not bringing anything new to the table.

The classless system is pretty cool, but again, not new, as is the single 'world', again also not new.

In fact, someone hit the nail pretty much on the head when they said it was a lot like Aion, better refrinement of existing concepts, sort of what you might expect from COX2 I suppose.

Taken all together, its probably a pretty fun game experience if you want a game designed like this, but I can see where other folks might be less enchanted.

OP is being disingenuous when he decries people who raid as having no lives, or no careers, sounds like sour grapes to me from someone who doesn't have as much free time as others.  (yes, I have a very busy career and family life, and can't raid too much, but I don't try to belittle those who do)

If you want a game that you can jump right in and out of with console style gameply it seems like a game more like Gears of  War  on the 360 is the way to go.

 

 

Sorry its not what you like , but is trolling really needed...8000post i wonder how many are troll posts...gears of war is an old game and not even comparable to CO...just another attempt at making people question the game they are enjoying...FAIL
 

Originally posted by Vrazule

Originally posted by GaryM

Originally posted by Vrazule

If I wanted "Console" style combat, I'd play my console.  Leave my PC games the hell alone, thanks.

Freedom of choice is good, take advantage of it!

I'm suprised nobody has mentioned that there will be only one server, which seems pretty cool to me. It guarantees that as long as there are a few thousand subs, the game will never be a ghost town, a problem which plagued WAR for example.

 

And what happens when 90% or more of the PC MMO industry embraces console style combat?  Do we blame ourselves for never putting up a fight and telling developers to leave our beloved, slower, but more tactical friendly combat alone?  Do we allow them to mostly, if not completely remove the character's skills and stats and replace them with player based twitch combat, effectively eliminating the RPG aspect of these games?  More and more companies are pushing for console / pc hybrid games and yet focus solely on console control schemes, leaving PC gamers with reduced control and the inability to even map the keyboard to their preference.

They already make MMOs for consoles, why force PC users to join them at the expense of our preferred play styles?  I like combat that gives me time to make decisions without suffering from an embolism.  I chose this genre specifically for it's slower pace and it's emphasis on the avatar and not the player.  You don't have to be an insider to see the current trend towards twitch / console style combat and the likelihood that it will completely overwhelm traditional MMO combat.

Avatar based games are unfair and riddled with primitive issues such as Gear and / or build dependency and lock you in for the win or lose  based upon statistical data crunching. Thats not gaming, you might as well be playing cards and picking your hand. 

Without the randomness factor of player skill there are never any real test or game.

Originally posted by Vrazule

If I wanted "Console" style combat, I'd play my console.  Leave my PC games the hell alone, thanks.

An MMO that plays like a console game is smart business.  I agree some games require control and finesse that only a PC can deliver (RTS, some RPGs, FPS).  MMOs do not fall in that category... in fact that fall way way way outside of that category.

the combat system is different from other mmo's if you do not agree then you did not play it long enough to get different powers!

and hell tell me one mmo where you are able to pick up a bench ,latern or even a tank if you are strong enough and throw it at your enemys.

I like the Aoe stuff , though it is good for pve , not pvp lol

Originally posted by comerb

Originally posted by Vrazule

If I wanted "Console" style combat, I'd play my console.  Leave my PC games the hell alone, thanks.

 

An MMO that plays like a console game is smart business.  I agree some games require control and finesse that only a PC can deliver (RTS, some RPGs, FPS).  MMOs do not fall in that category... in fact that fall way way way outside of that category.

OMG this game could get bigger than wow! Imagine if you could join in on the xbox360 in one server! So this game could have PC and XBox360 subs on = more subscribers than wow!

Originally posted by Horkathane

 The combat makes other mmos weak, nothing can compare to it and AOC shoulda used this method instead of the dumb combo swing crap. IN champions it is more intelligent gameplay and the mechanics speak ZOUNDS!

Truly, to each his own, I guess.  I thought AOC had the best combat system I'd played in an MMO since CoH.  Could have been even better if they hadn't dumbed down the combo system.  CO doesn't even compare to either game, though, IMHO.  And I don't get why people keep praising the blocking bit.  It doesn't do anything for me at all.

CO has some nice touches, with the way some combat moves can be interactive, and how you can pick up all sorts of objects to throw, but the implementation just feels weak to me.  Something about the game engine just makes everything feel disconnected, too light and fluid for my taste.

Originally posted by Horkathane

Originally posted by comerb

Originally posted by Vrazule

If I wanted "Console" style combat, I'd play my console.  Leave my PC games the hell alone, thanks.

 

An MMO that plays like a console game is smart business.  I agree some games require control and finesse that only a PC can deliver (RTS, some RPGs, FPS).  MMOs do not fall in that category... in fact that fall way way way outside of that category.

OMG this game could get bigger than wow! Imagine if you could join in on the xbox360 in one server! So this game could have PC and XBox360 subs on = more subscribers than wow!

Sarcasm at its finest..... or at least it should be sarcasm...  even with console sales its doubtful this will ever get that many true subscribers.  Thats if we're lucky to see this on consoles at all... in fact... this game  launching on a console will probably be the only way to break an extensive 200K subscribers.  However at the rate they are developing for the 360, I doubt we'll see this launch on a console before DCUO launches in direct competition.

I am REALLY enjoying the game right now.  However, I don't consider it next gen.  It took some features from other games and put them in a superhero world.  They took CoH and made it 10 times better.  It's a great little game that I am sure I'm going to enjoy for a few months (bought the 6 month deal) 

Originally posted by solareus

No one has defined what next gen is, and if a game does come that is next gen, no one would really know . With that said, the character costumization from looks to skills to stats is pretty robust and I would consider that a push forward to letting gamers have almost complete control of what character will achieve.

Special efx have been raised with game, partical efx ect, all are of what I would call "now gen" which means most mmo devs won't use single player efxs because of frame rates,  but in a fps it runs fine, it is "now gen" tech that is being pushed intot he game. Next gen , I think would be to soon for mmo's.

 

What eve is doing is next gen, with the fps inside the space mmo having one persistent world, even though I'm not going to play it, it will be deemed the corner stone of future gaming.

This is easy:

Next Generation is defined as the generation which follows the current generation.

1st generation would be UO, EQ, AC, etc.

2nd generation would be EQ2, WoW, CoH, etc.

3rd generation would be VG, AoC, WAR, etc.

CO, Aion are the next generation.

Simply put, the term 'next generation' simply is a location on a timeline of events.

What 'next gen' means and what 'next gen' connotes are 2 different things. For generations now, advertisers have taken great pains to make you think that 'next gen' implies something better than you had in the past, this being totally subjective and opinion based it puts them in a great marketing position. Without telling you what makes the product better than past products, they can label something 'next gen' and then the consumer assigns their own value to what that means. Therefore, with the label of 'next gen' every single person would think it means the product will be better than the last without knowing exactly how or why. If an advertiser were to tell you exactly how or why their product is better than past products then they would only capture consumers who share the same opinion. With 'next gen' used instead, your opinion is validated do to the connotation the term implies, meaning you capture everyone.

The effect of the 'next gen' label is that once the product comes out, those who coincidently shared the opinion about what makes a product better with the developer, believe truely their product is 'next gen'. Unfortunately, those who don't share the same opinion with the devs about what makes a product better are disillusioned and scream 'this is NOT next gen', we were lied to'.

Then if it were ever to end up in court, the judge would say, 'next generation does nothing more than place a product on a timeline' and unless they lied about where their product fit on that timeline, they have been truthful in their advertising while slightly underhanded in 'fooling' you into inferring that their product would share your opinion about what makes a product better.

Your post to me, shows that you have let marketers fool you into believing that 'next gen' means 'better'. And so you assign all features which you like to be 'next gen'; an arguable point, because others don't believe that what EVE is doing is 'better' they would argue that it is not 'next gen', etc.

Finally, when looking into the past, we can see certain trends among the various generations. For example 1st generation games share certain aspects; there was large variety in mechanics, 1st generation games all share an 'experimental' aspect to them. That experimentation also created massive flaws, such as EQ's debilitating down time. Second generation games share the common aspect of trying to remove the 1st generations flaws; such as EQ's downtime. WoW, did this optimally, thus exploding the genre therefore 3rd generation games share the common aspect which is widely termed 'wow clone'.

What does the next generation bring? Time will tell, but I bet most people think 'better than the last', despite the fact that everyone's 'better than the last' is a different opinion.

Next gen usually does put products in a time line. Certain features, feature sets, etc are used to group different generations together.  Simply producing a sequel to a game does not promote it to the next generation.

If the game contains the same features as other older games, it is not next gen, regardless of its release in a timeline.

I would say CO belongs in the same generation as WAR, AoC, etc. It's features are mostly the same.

---

Champions Online is a fun game but for me it has not staying power. It's really a lot of the same ol' same ol'.

True that games are grouped by generation, but by touting a game as "next-gen" is to say that this is the first of the next group, the game that raises the bar, evolves the genre, brings about the next generation.  Not just that it's part of the latest generation.

Originally posted by Borkotron

Champions Online is not a true next gen MMO. It's a fun "lite" MMO. It's good if you want to play something for some quick entertainment but don't expect much depth from it.  I can only play for about an hour before I get bored and go back to Darkfall (that says a lot!).

CO still is the same old formulaic game we've all seen. Mobs that stand around in groups. Turn-based combat i.e press 1 2 2 wait for energy regen then press 3. Mob dead. Rinse and repeat.  So far, missions are very linear. Same old "go kill this" and "go find that" missions. Linear level progression too. I do like that they added their own version of WAR's public quests, but, unlike Mythic, have not peppered them all over the place.

I'll buy this game and play it but I just don't see it ever becoming my "primary" MMO.

this man is 100% correct. The first area was cool in the fact that they dropped you into a city under siege (sp?) but i wasnt afraid. The mobs just kinda stood there and let me kill them, i never lost a hit point. Give me a little challenge geez. The Lack of depth was kind of annoying. Go here, kill this, go here, kill that. The public quest was just a mission that everyone participated in and nothing more. I came in third and got nothing, so whats the point? In my opinion this game would have been great in the oblivion iv format with a Fable 2 story-line. A huge super heroe world to take over any way you want. Maybe put in some multiplayer. Theres no real reason for this to be an mmo, you dont need anyones help for anything so far, and they dotn have servers they have "rooms" and ive only seen a max of like 40 ppl in them so wheres the 'massive' in "multi massive online" take place? I dunno. The character creation was a blast. Too awesome. Fighting with NPC super heroes in the final mission was great. The random "omg save the super hero from the villain" hidden quest i found was cool. It is fun without a doubt but i just dont see a reason to play.

CO felt good, yes. Next gen? No.

Originally posted by Horkathane

Originally posted by Vrazule

Originally posted by GaryM

Originally posted by Vrazule

If I wanted "Console" style combat, I'd play my console.  Leave my PC games the hell alone, thanks.

Freedom of choice is good, take advantage of it!

I'm suprised nobody has mentioned that there will be only one server, which seems pretty cool to me. It guarantees that as long as there are a few thousand subs, the game will never be a ghost town, a problem which plagued WAR for example.

 

And what happens when 90% or more of the PC MMO industry embraces console style combat?  Do we blame ourselves for never putting up a fight and telling developers to leave our beloved, slower, but more tactical friendly combat alone?  Do we allow them to mostly, if not completely remove the character's skills and stats and replace them with player based twitch combat, effectively eliminating the RPG aspect of these games?  More and more companies are pushing for console / pc hybrid games and yet focus solely on console control schemes, leaving PC gamers with reduced control and the inability to even map the keyboard to their preference.

They already make MMOs for consoles, why force PC users to join them at the expense of our preferred play styles?  I like combat that gives me time to make decisions without suffering from an embolism.  I chose this genre specifically for it's slower pace and it's emphasis on the avatar and not the player.  You don't have to be an insider to see the current trend towards twitch / console style combat and the likelihood that it will completely overwhelm traditional MMO combat.

Avatar based games are unfair and riddled with primitive issues such as Gear and / or build dependency and lock you in for the win or lose  based upon statistical data crunching. Thats not gaming, you might as well be playing cards and picking your hand. 

Without the randomness factor of player skill there are never any real test or game.

well, lets not pretend that there's no stat building in CO.  There is.  & its a lot more complex.  It just isn't as detrimental to balance as it is in most other MMOs.

Originally posted by Horkathane

Originally posted by comerb

Originally posted by Vrazule

If I wanted "Console" style combat, I'd play my console.  Leave my PC games the hell alone, thanks.

 

An MMO that plays like a console game is smart business.  I agree some games require control and finesse that only a PC can deliver (RTS, some RPGs, FPS).  MMOs do not fall in that category... in fact that fall way way way outside of that category.

OMG this game could get bigger than wow! Imagine if you could join in on the xbox360 in one server! So this game could have PC and XBox360 subs on = more subscribers than wow!

They already said that will never happen.  PC & 360 will be completely seperate.  (thats assuming the 360 version ever even comes out)

Originally posted by 4Renziks

Originally posted by Kyleran

Not seeing "Blocking" as being particularly next generation.  DAOC had not only blocking with a shield but parrying with a sword, and it gave players countermoves if someone did chose to block or parry you.  Perhaps Champions is more FPS like in its responses, but its certainly not bringing anything new to the table.

The classless system is pretty cool, but again, not new, as is the single 'world', again also not new.

In fact, someone hit the nail pretty much on the head when they said it was a lot like Aion, better refrinement of existing concepts, sort of what you might expect from COX2 I suppose.

Taken all together, its probably a pretty fun game experience if you want a game designed like this, but I can see where other folks might be less enchanted.

OP is being disingenuous when he decries people who raid as having no lives, or no careers, sounds like sour grapes to me from someone who doesn't have as much free time as others.  (yes, I have a very busy career and family life, and can't raid too much, but I don't try to belittle those who do)

If you want a game that you can jump right in and out of with console style gameply it seems like a game more like Gears of  War  on the 360 is the way to go.

 

 

Sorry its not what you like , but is trolling really needed...8000post i wonder how many are troll posts...gears of war is an old game and not even comparable to CO...just another attempt at making people question the game they are enjoying...FAIL
 

LOL, Trolling?  Disagreeing with the OP's viewpoint is hardly trolling. But, if you had read some of my former posts you'll find I fear no labels, particularly being called a troll.

I picked GoW because I know so little of the console market. But I do watch my son and his friends play them and they seem to really enjoy the combat style, which to me is well suited to FPS games on an XBox.

OP decries the combat mechanics of MMO's further down, saying they are number crunching and don't require skill, but he's wrong, there is skill and strategy in making sure your character is properly geared and well fought and I've run across many skilled players who fight their characters well in almost any game.  Doesn't take FPS shooter controls to make a game require skill, outside of twitch skills of course.

In the end, there's nothing Next Gen about CO, and thats assuming we can even come up with a decent definition of what that really means.

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by solareus

 

All of what you just wrote, is not true. The term "next generation" has nothing to do with a time line. It has to do with technological advancements in different categories of game development, from graphics, Ai, games profgression architecture, combat systems ect.

When a game moves forward in a catergory , then it it is next generation, reading the Magazine" Next Generation" has taught me that through out the 90's.

Who ever came up with the time line theory is dead wrong. Every MMO that has the same principles are of the same generation no matter the release. MMO's that are next gen would be Shadowbane, Eve, Saga of Ryzom, Fury Online.

my term which I will be using "now generation" is when the mmo genre is able to use current technolgies to create a game world. Motion blurs ,dx10 ,Ai improvements and mutli core process are all "now gen"

Generational = any game that is simalar in design to other game ( Aion, WoW, AC , DaOC, WAR as examples)

Now Gen = game using current technologies (Vanguard , LotrO , Champions Online Mortal Online  examples)

Next Gen = a game that pushes an aspect of development further then anyone has done before (Eve + console fps , Shadowbane +city and character development , Ryzom crafting and character advancement are examples)

Champins has a few things that are "now gen" like Ai  with a touch of next gen with character advancement.

Whether you enjoy CO or not, whether its poor, good or great these are all things I can see are that are reasonably open to fair debate, however claiming it to be 'next gen' is downright misleading, the most remarkable aspect of CO is how it doesnt even try to bring anything new or fresh to the mmo table, its an mmo made by accountants a checklist of staple mmo features implemented essentailly for their ability to consume player time.

Exchanging endurance building for cooldown timers doesnt revolutionise combat or make it new, or better, or worse.... Conan actually had a genuinely different approach to combat but even that is debateble as to whether it should be classed as a step forward or backwards, CO just isnt a step in any direction on any level, and the response and priority of the devs throughout beta really prove it doesnt try to, so enjoy it for what it is or pass it by and wait but do not present it as progress that is unreasonable.