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Originally posted by Falice

Now my follow-up question to the same group is this, if we know that the other side is mostly comprised of crazy, why are we trying to work with them? I'm referring to the Republicans in the House and Senate that are pandering to the fringe within their communities, I guess that's somewhere around 90% of the House and Senate repubs.
Why can't the Dems just do what they really want to do, especially since they have the majority?

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I would substitute the word crazy with the word "greedy" when talking about the politicians. They are crazy like a fox and are on both sides. The Republicans historically have more of them and they get paid more by those special interests, but Dems have taken plenty of money as well.

Example: Max Baucus. He's a Democratic senator from Montana who's basically in control of the Finance committee. Here are some interesting stats regarding Baucus, money, and his donations from a Physican's for Single Payer website:

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According to OpenSecrets.org over his career he has taken donations from:

The Insurance Industry: $1,170,313

Health Professionals $1,016,276

Pharmaceuticals/Health Products Industry $734,605

Hospitals/Nursing Homes $541,891

Health Services/HMOs $439,700

That is a grand total of $3,902,785.

In 2008 Baucus had virtually no challenger in Montana. A little-known Republican was on the ballot, Baucus won with 73% of the vote. But, Baucus sought big donations from big business anyway. He used his connections to corporations with business before his committee to raise an immense campaign fund of more than $11 million. In 2008, 91% of his donations come from individuals living outside of Montana, which is why he is more the “Senator for K Street” then the Senator for Montana. Corporate health profiteers who invested in Baucus will now benefit from his stewardship over health care reform. His 2008 donations from health care profiteers included:

Insurance $592,185

Health Professionals $537,141

Pharmaceuticals/Health Products $524,813

Health Services/HMOs $364,500

Hospitals/Nursing Homes $332,826

That is $1,826,652 Baucus took from industries who he can now make wealthier by deforming health care reform.

And, it is not just the chairman of the committee who has received massive donations, the full Finance Committee is a gluttonous embarrassment of campaign pay-offs. In 2008 the full committee received a total of $13,263,986 from industries affected by health care reform. Can we trust this committee to put the interests of the people before their donors? The donations to the Finance Committee in 2008 included:

Insurance $5,103,900

Pharmaceuticals/Health Products $3,308,831

Hospitals/Nursing Homes $2,809,353

Health Services/HMO $2,041,902

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It's hard to believe that in a matter with this much national importance that we leave these decisions up to politicians and corporations who only stand to benefit financially from people NOT getting cheaper healthcare to control the dialogue. But they have effectively done this by stirring up the crazies, calling names and pointing fingers.

Anything a corporate capitalist (one who capitalizes) can do in the United States to keep people squabbling and missing the big picture is in their interest; and for the vast majority a single payer system would be the best option. But they can't even get a PUBLIC option passed due to disinformation, lol. This is why so many things fail. Pure capitalism is just as bad as pure communism at its root; it fails to a degree and eventually it will eat itself and create economic castes over time.

Originally posted by Falice

Now my follow-up question to the same group is this, if we know that the other side is mostly comprised of crazy, why are we trying to work with them? I'm referring to the Republicans in the House and Senate that are pandering to the fringe within their communities, I guess that's somewhere around 90% of the House and Senate repubs.

Why can't the Dems just do what they really want to do, especially since they have the majority?

 

 

Crazy or not the Republicans in office were elected by American citizens, so that these citizens could have a voice, you can't drown out their voice.

Originally posted by clwoods

Originally posted by Falice

Now my follow-up question to the same group is this, if we know that the other side is mostly comprised of crazy, why are we trying to work with them? I'm referring to the Republicans in the House and Senate that are pandering to the fringe within their communities, I guess that's somewhere around 90% of the House and Senate repubs.

Why can't the Dems just do what they really want to do, especially since they have the majority?

 

 

 

Crazy or not the Republicans in office were elected by American citizens, so that these citizens could have a voice, you can't drown out their voice.

You are right, the Dems could push this through anytime. The are trying to spread the blame by working with Republicans but any smart Republican will stay far away from this clusterf**k. Obama and the Dems own this one lock stock and barrel.  Obama has allready shown he doesn't care about the country but a lot of Dems care about getting reelected.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by outfctrl

If this Bill is slammed down our throats, you will see a huge change in future elections.  People will vote out all those politicians that supported this bill.

 

I don't think anything is being "rammed down your throat".

We had elections, these are the representatives people voted for, obviously you were out voted. That's the way Democracy (yes, a representative republic is a form of Democracy) works.

You're exactly right, if you don't like the results, you get your chance to change it in the next election. Again, Democracy in action.

You're basically saying you don't like Democracy, because your side didn't win. That's just sour grapes. Democracy in the form of a Representative Republic doesn't work based on polls. The American public doesn't get to vote on every issue. If that were the case, we wouldn't need Congress.

 

Look at the polls.  Even the people who voted for these democrats are having second thoughts about their decision.  Sure, they wanted change, but not like this.  Half the people that attend these townhalls are democrats who voted for them.

If the public option is supposed to be self suffient means to insure the poor,  homeless and people who just can't afford private insurance then how exactly do they plan on bringing in  revenue?

The whole,  "this program will pay for it self and might actually make money" is one of the things that is helping kill it.  Then when other democrates come in and say that yes,  it will probaley need tax money to survive they get beat on by the party for speaking against the message.

Nobody's defending the insurance companies, nobody's wanting the current system stay AS-IS.  People want reform, but the right reform.

The problem with government coming in to do a total revamp is that they don't do the right things.  Why?  Because they have special interests of their own, and they are so disconnected with the average americans it's not even funny.

Healthcare reform?  Good idea, bad implementation.

Medicare?  Good idea, bad implementation.

Social Security?  Good idea, bad implementation.

Cash for clunkers?  Good idea, bad implementation.

Stimulus?  Decent idea, horrible implementation.

Going green?  Good idea, bad implementation.

Government thinks they know how to do things best.  Often times they have GOOD ideas, but they just can't for the life of them implement them in such a way that benefit the Americans the best.  They just can't seem to do it right.  Just about all government run entitlement programs are running out of money, social security, medicare, medicaid are all going bankrupt.  Postal service going bankrupt that they are thinking about cutting another day of non-service to save money.  The way government run things just don't make any sense.

Instead of helping small business owners, the people that actually create 70%+ of American jobs, they are too busy giving large corporations bailout money and taking over them.

Again, nobody's defending insurance companies, nobody's saying we don't need a healthcare reform.  But we do not need that 1,000 page piece of junk with loopholes, pork, and changes that won't make things better.  By the way, there are only small fractions of the population that really *need* healthcare.  I'm fine with reforming the system so they can be included.  Just don't do a total revamp the way they are trying to hurry through, especially when most of them either 1) haven't read the 1,000 page bill, or 2) don't understand it just like most of the people.

Originally posted by clwoods

Originally posted by Falice

Guys help me out here, I'm not very smart, but I'm trying to make sense of this whole insurance thing and a few other issues that are taking place currently in our country.

 

Why are average people defending the insurance companies as an argument against health reform? What benefit do some of these folks see (for themselves) when they express concern that a government run insurance option would affect profits for private insurance?

Why are conservatives so eager to defend private industry, I can name dozens/hundreds (Enron, Haliburton, FF, etc) of private corporations that have ruined peoples lives around the world and here at home, why are individuals, especially those that are not wealthy so adamant about preserving private industry in its current shape and form?

Why are these same people ignoring the fact that we already have social services in place, police, firefighters, medicare, etc., would they prefer to privatize these services as well?

I just don't understand the logic behind all of this, it's just pure crazy talk to me.

Everyone else has posted pretty lengthy answers, and I'm not in the mood to read them, so I'm going to answer your question in a short manner and move on.

 

Common people, most at least, believe in God.  Republicans play the God and Religion cards, so the common man follows believing them on other aspects because they proclaim piousness so heavily that people don't want to doubt their sincerity.  The common man is then spoon fed the other ideas that Republicans want implanted in their heads.  Christianity plays to a flock mentality, so does the Republican party.

 

Again I haven't read anything anyone else has written, but I know what I've written is true. 

lol did you even read the OP statement and question?

brain cells man!!! use em!

Originally posted by outfctrl

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by outfctrl

If this Bill is slammed down our throats, you will see a huge change in future elections.  People will vote out all those politicians that supported this bill.

 

I don't think anything is being "rammed down your throat".

We had elections, these are the representatives people voted for, obviously you were out voted. That's the way Democracy (yes, a representative republic is a form of Democracy) works.

You're exactly right, if you don't like the results, you get your chance to change it in the next election. Again, Democracy in action.

You're basically saying you don't like Democracy, because your side didn't win. That's just sour grapes. Democracy in the form of a Representative Republic doesn't work based on polls. The American public doesn't get to vote on every issue. If that were the case, we wouldn't need Congress.

 

Look at the polls.  Even the people who voted for these democrats are having second thoughts about their decision.  Sure, they wanted change, but not like this.  Half the people that attend these townhalls are democrats who voted for them.

My mother is a democrate who voted for Obama. She's also a Cardiologist.
 

She's also angier than hell with what Obama is trying to do to Healthcare. She said its one of the most stupidest things she has seen in a good long time.

Originally posted by Enigma

Originally posted by outfctrl

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by outfctrl

If this Bill is slammed down our throats, you will see a huge change in future elections.  People will vote out all those politicians that supported this bill.

 

I don't think anything is being "rammed down your throat".

We had elections, these are the representatives people voted for, obviously you were out voted. That's the way Democracy (yes, a representative republic is a form of Democracy) works.

You're exactly right, if you don't like the results, you get your chance to change it in the next election. Again, Democracy in action.

You're basically saying you don't like Democracy, because your side didn't win. That's just sour grapes. Democracy in the form of a Representative Republic doesn't work based on polls. The American public doesn't get to vote on every issue. If that were the case, we wouldn't need Congress.

 

Look at the polls.  Even the people who voted for these democrats are having second thoughts about their decision.  Sure, they wanted change, but not like this.  Half the people that attend these townhalls are democrats who voted for them.

My mother is a democrate who voted for Obama. She's also a Cardiologist.
 

She's also angier than hell with what Obama is trying to do to Healthcare. She said its one of the most stupidest things she has seen in a good long time.

Did she just announce her credentials to you and called it stupid, or did she give you an actual reason? 

Originally posted by deviliscious  

No one wants to discuss what should be in the bill, instead they ramble on about libs this conservatives that, throwing nonsense back and forth that has nothing to do with what should be in this bill, and what should not. No, that was never considered, they just threw it together and said " here is your reform" when in reality it is a big pile of poo served up on a silver platter.

It really disgusts me that people are that accepting of  something that is this important when it is so poorly done.  Lives are at stake here, and the waste of time they spent on this nonsense just made it take that much longer before we ever see REAL healthcare reform, if ever...

Giving the insurers more power is not the solution either. This is a mess...

Wasn't there a time in the history of the United States in which bills were debated on the floor of the House and the Senate before being voted on?

That amendments were proposed to certain provisions?

Or am I imagining all that?

Originally posted by olddaddy

Originally posted by deviliscious  

No one wants to discuss what should be in the bill, instead they ramble on about libs this conservatives that, throwing nonsense back and forth that has nothing to do with what should be in this bill, and what should not. No, that was never considered, they just threw it together and said " here is your reform" when in reality it is a big pile of poo served up on a silver platter.

It really disgusts me that people are that accepting of  something that is this important when it is so poorly done.  Lives are at stake here, and the waste of time they spent on this nonsense just made it take that much longer before we ever see REAL healthcare reform, if ever...

Giving the insurers more power is not the solution either. This is a mess...

 

Wasn't there a time in the history of the United States in which bills were debated on the floor of the House and the Senate before being voted on?

That amendments were proposed to certain provisions?

Or am I imagining all that?

 

 

No bill HAS been voted on except the different versions that have come out of committees. Obviously those debates are small and closed.

You have to have that before they're debated on the floor, and any further amendments are added (there's already been amendments).

So I'm not sure wha you were insinuating there, but yes, today there still exists debate on the floor before bills are passed and amendment processes.

Originally posted by Falice

...

"Well said Pop, Dec, Laser and others, I really do feel that it boils down to one word now and that is opposite. Regardless of what Obama does, they are going to have to do the opposite; this was probably true for every Dem that was in a leadership position in recent history, but probably even more so for Obama."

By using the word "they", you are also including members of the Democratic party correct?  Or referring only to all conservatives, which would include Democrats as well, right?

"I find it interesting that from the conservative point of view it's all about being heard now and freedom of speech, when during the previous administration legitimate protests which were against the lies that Bush spewed (war, fear mongering, etc) was considered by these same hypocrites to be "un-American". I can guarantee you that if ANYONE of us was toting a gun within 20 miles of Bush, we would have instantly been picked up, labeled terrorist, and shipped off to Gitmo."

That would depend on the time of attempting to carry a firearm or weapon near to the President.  To do so right after September 11th, 2001; even if legal to do, most likely would result in some form of detainment.  As time has healed, the security restrictions should relax.  As for lying, you must also include the members of Congress as well, not just the administration.  And if I remember correctly there is some town in Vermont with an arrest warrent for Mr. Bush.  Nothing has happen to that town for being 'unAmerican" even during a time of war.

"Why can't the Dems just do what they really want to do, especially since they have the majority?"

Because there are inner differences and factions within all parties.  Not all Democrats are Liberals and not all Republicans are Conservatives.  There are also the Centralists, the Extremists and all flavors in between to deal with.  The problems with passing the Health Care Reform cannot be blamed on the Republicans since they no longer have control.  Assuming that the problems or hold-ups are due to Conservatives is of limited thinking, there are other forms of beliefs and political parties at work.

I would like to know though why members of Congress get exclusions from the health bill.  I can understand the administration having special treatment (the stress takes years of life away and the power resides in only two people), but not Congress.  Hummm, so by using the same logical point of view against Republicans in the quoted post, I would then have to say, 90% of all Democrats believe in "Do what I say, not what I do."  If that statement of mine is to be refuted, then by logic so must be of the opinions about the "crazy side."

As I predicted, and I think I shared that prediction on this forum, Obama would not be "big/powerful enough" to effect real and meaningful change.  The energy and momentum that propelled Obama to the White House is needed - now.  If you supported Obama during the campaign, then you need to support him more now than ever. 

If you support competition and choice in the health care insurance industry, then YOU --indeed, you-- need to lobby YOUR duly elected representative.

If not, we are going to lose choice, competition, and cost-reduction in the health care insurance industry.

I am going to answer the OP without reading the thread, I know sacrilege but I can sum up the answer to the questions posed as....Why?

Greed.

As a person from the UK I am, to Americans, a borderline Communist.  The most right-wing of our main political parties, The Conservative Party....supposedly the Republicans to our Democrats, are almost communists to staunch Republican Americans.  So I have had massive rows on the internet that went on for days, if not weeks at a time and involved not just banter but some serious information gathering to help prove points.

The thing is, I even argued with a Republican who was extremely smart, and not  the usual bigoted idiot...these smart republicans do exist.  So our arguments were never one-sided, as many of them seem sometimes.  He made his points and he made them well, he raised interesting issues and he linked to reputable sources to justify his opinion....of course he was still wrong, this is the internet after all, but he made a good argument.

In the end though after months of arguing over whether social health care, pensions, social housing, public transport etc etc were good or not it basically came down to personal greed and selfishness.   Even those in America who are not particularly rich defend the system which creates the wealth because they have been sold the dream of being wealthy.  They don't want to change the system, they simply want to work the system for their benefit to become wealthy, and it doesn't matter if you point out the absolute and obvious truth....not everyone can be rich....for their answer is simple....as long as I am, I don't care.

In the UK, and as far as I know every other European country, we have a huge swathe of rich people.  I think London has its fair share of millionaires.  However, we don't sell the dream of being rich as much as America does.  I think we try, but we are British and we just suck at enthusiasm, we're just rubbish at it.  (ending a sentence on a preposition do forgive me grammer geeks).   We don't sell the idea to every poor kid living in poverty that they too can be the Prime Minister or insanely rich.

So people are less inclined to defend systems that create rich people, because they don't neccessarily see themselves becoming those rich people, so have no desire to continue the system.

This is changing, the homogenisation of the American system is prevalent and does continue to influence the British Culture, but I do think there is still enough common sense prevailing to stop that becoming a complete reality so far.

Originally posted by declaredemer

As I predicted, and I think I shared that prediction on this forum, Obama would not be "big/powerful enough" to effect real and meaningful change.  The energy and momentum that propelled Obama to the White House is needed - now.  If you supported Obama during the campaign, then you need to support him more now than ever. 

 

 

If you support competition and choice in the health care insurance industry, then YOU --indeed, you-- need to lobby YOUR duly elected representative.

 

 

If not, we are going to lose choice, competition, and cost-reduction in the health care insurance industry.

Change would be changing directions. Socialized medicine is continuing in the same direction we have been for half a century. With Obama, as I predicted, we are seeing more of the same, only worse.

If people want change it won't come from Republicrats like Obama.

Originally posted by clwoods

Originally posted by Falice

Now my follow-up question to the same group is this, if we know that the other side is mostly comprised of crazy, why are we trying to work with them? I'm referring to the Republicans in the House and Senate that are pandering to the fringe within their communities, I guess that's somewhere around 90% of the House and Senate repubs.

Why can't the Dems just do what they really want to do, especially since they have the majority?

 

 

 

Crazy or not the Republicans in office were elected by American citizens, so that these citizens could have a voice, you can't drown out their voice.

Money drowns out the people's voice all the time.

Honestly I don't see why Americans even vote anymore. The only thing your vote does is deciding who gets paid by "special interest groups". Corporations, not the people, have been running America for decades.

 I honestly believe 95% of people who bitch about healthcare reform have NO idea whats actually in the bill. The sheer ignorance spewed at townhall meetings and Fox news propaganda just spreads the misinformation.

Healthcare needs fixing. If you don't agree with that then you must be retarded. We pay the most for the worst worldwide. To be honest I don't even understand what the right wingnut argument is. Under the plan you will end up paying less for the same doctors/service you have now, plus there will be a public option which will drive competition and lower rates even more. The bill will go through, and if the republicans keep up their track record of misinformed hicks they won't stop anything.

I just have to laugh whenever some guy with a mustache gets up with his NRA card pinned to his shirt and yells to "keep government off my medicare!" Fucking idiots.

Originally posted by protoroc

Originally posted by clwoods

Originally posted by Falice

Now my follow-up question to the same group is this, if we know that the other side is mostly comprised of crazy, why are we trying to work with them? I'm referring to the Republicans in the House and Senate that are pandering to the fringe within their communities, I guess that's somewhere around 90% of the House and Senate repubs.

Why can't the Dems just do what they really want to do, especially since they have the majority?

 

 

 

Crazy or not the Republicans in office were elected by American citizens, so that these citizens could have a voice, you can't drown out their voice.

 

Money drowns out the people's voice all the time.

Honestly I don't see why Americans even vote anymore. The only thing your vote does is deciding who gets paid by "special interest groups". Corporations, not the people, have been running America for decades.

Sadly there a lot of truth to what you say, but not voting is not a solution.

Originally posted by Netzoko

 I honestly believe 95% of people who bitch about healthcare reform have NO idea whats actually in the bill. The sheer ignorance spewed at townhall meetings and Fox news propaganda just spreads the misinformation.

Healthcare needs fixing. If you don't agree with that then you must be retarded. We pay the most for the worst worldwide. To be honest I don't even understand what the right wingnut argument is. Under the plan you will end up paying less for the same doctors/service you have now, plus there will be a public option which will drive competition and lower rates even more. The bill will go through, and if the republicans keep up their track record of misinformed hicks they won't stop anything.

I just have to laugh whenever some guy with a mustache gets up with his NRA card pinned to his shirt and yells to "keep government off my medicare!" Fucking idiots.

I have to agree...  However, I'm not sure that the current bill being proposed is a step in the right direction to the true reform that is needed. 

Originally posted by declaredemer

If you support competition and choice in the health care insurance industry, then YOU --indeed, you-- need to lobby YOUR duly elected representative.

 If not, we are going to lose choice, competition, and cost-reduction in the health care insurance industry.

Why do you think were marching On mass to stop them at townhalls, and Writeing in to tell them No?

The bills are what will kill Choice, Competition, and Costs will skyrocket.