Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by tvalentine

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by Xasapis

 I suppose DAoC, Planeside and Lineage 2 were myths then?

These games did not have the popularity of WoW, but they certainly did have working RvR. Therefore a working RvR is definitely not a myth. 

What would you say if the next Blizzard game is a three way RvR game between humans, zerg and protoss (yea, yea, I know, now I'm the one stretching). Personally, I would be drooling over the mere idea of such a game.

 

 Lineage 2 has around 60K western subs....

 

i'm sure he was referring to the past. Where Lineage 2 had somewhere around 2+ Million subscribers at one point.

 

Nope they never had. I referred to the WESTERN players. You know the one sub where you have to pay 180 hard dollars each year just to play it, not the eastern "free internet café counts".

 

read my edit. They had the record before WoW when WoW was at 2 million. I dont know how many people used internet cafes and neither do you, so the point is moot. The real point is that there was more then 2 million unique users logging on all over the world.

Originally posted by Wolfenpride

Instances/battlegrounds have no place in rvr whatsoever

WAR is proof of that.

Beyond that, everything about DAoC's RvR system was perfect as far as im concerned.

That is, during the SI-era, it was near perfect.

WAR was doomed from it's core set up.  You CAN'T have a game like that without having an odd faction to offset the inevitible conclusion of one side getting stronger than the others.

Also...their RvR was poorly thought out because it was patched in rather than being built in from the core.

Another mistake is making it so that you HAVE to RvR to play the game.  Before newer games came out and before the devs lost their minds and catered to the "I want it now without effort" crowd DAOC had a good mix of PVE and RvR...though their PvE would never cut it in todays market.

RvR with a decent faction set up and less focus on making 200 people gang up to take a keep by lag force can go a long way.  Especially if there is plenty of pve stuff to do also (that doesn't suck.)

I think someone said it well earlier when they said something along the lines of focusing on smaller battles that all together created the war.  Do you want an epic mass scale all out war once in awhile? Sure.  Do you want it so that if you didn't bring 200+ with you every single day that you should go home? Nah.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by Xasapis

 WAR issues certainly do not stem from RvR, quite the opposite actually. The main issues (for me) were the unresponsive combat, the fixation on scenarios (aka battlegrounds) and the underdeveloped end game open world PvP.

A good portion of the people that initially joined WAR did so for the RvR as their primary reason (please correct me if I'm mistaken). Even if that's nowhere near WoW's numbers, that is still a considerable amount of people looking for an RvR game.

 

While I would agree that the main issue was the unresponsive combat and RvR mechanics, most forums have zillion of complaints about the faction imbalance in the game.

Like I said: world pvp  = biggest healed up DPS group wins...

Whether that comes from levels, gear, sheer number or overpowered classes or ... just "joining the winning side faction"....

It is an uncontrolled mess without ANY tools to view the much needed data to do something about it.

Now we get into different subject matter.  I had no idea this thread would still be around a couple days later.  And no one has flamed each other into Mod-bans yet!

Anyway..broaching this newer area of conversation...what kinds of alterations to the typical group make up/skill combos could help alleviate some of this?  You can never completely get rid of that..I mean, if you come to a fight with 3 friends and some slingshot, and I bring hand grenades, AR15's and a tank...you're not gonna win.

But..what if there weren't things like massive group heals?  What if heals were only line of sight single target...maybe some aoe heals that healed EVERYTHING in its radius? things like that.  Would that change the dynamics much?  Pro's? Con's?

Originally posted by tvalentine

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by tvalentine

RvR kinda sucks imo. I would perfer a more open world where people make their own decisions on who their enemies are. Adding politics and guildvsguild or clanvsclan wars adds much more depth then a RvR war that never ends.

 

Any examples of games where player politics and clan/clan fights were particularly good?

While I dig politics in games, I haven't seen a game with particularly freeform player factions.

Maybe Shadowbane had freeform player factions?  I lost interest so quick I never reached those rumored good parts of the game.  Reminded me of L2 - a game who supposedly has alright PVP but whose designers insanely decided to hide it behind the worst PVE they could create.

 

Sure. Lineage 2, Shadowbane, EVE online, and AOC off the top of my head. And what exactly is the point of pvp if you are going to be PVEing? RVR is a stupid feature to have in a mmorpg. It seperates 2(or more) halves of the community, most of the time by a language barrier. What good can come from having 2 seperate communities? RVR limits freedoms and gives me the thought of a generic storyline/feature in any mmorpg that has it.

Okay so you don't like RvR, however the RvR that I played during DAoC-SI was the best gaming experience I ever had. ( including any single player, multiplayer or mmo game )

People would start roleplaying without realising it, the enemy had invaded, we would stop our PVE raid halfway, to go defend our keeps and our relic, those filthy mids or hibs were trying to steal our relic, death to them all ! ( yah I played albion, on Bors, the only server where albs were outnumbered :p )

We formed bonds, to this day many of us still keep in touch with our guild from DAoC ( hey Ara Veritas :p ).

ToA and NF killed it, together with WoW ( little did we know that WoW would become a raid game, many of us thought it would be similar to DAoC with Horde vs Alliance, we were mistaken ).

But hey, to each their own.