Nobody's defending the insurance companies, nobody's wanting the current system stay AS-IS.  People want reform, but the right reform.

The problem with government coming in to do a total revamp is that they don't do the right things.  Why?  Because they have special interests of their own, and they are so disconnected with the average americans it's not even funny.

Healthcare reform?  Good idea, bad implementation.

Medicare?  Good idea, bad implementation.

Social Security?  Good idea, bad implementation.

Cash for clunkers?  Good idea, bad implementation.

Stimulus?  Decent idea, horrible implementation.

Going green?  Good idea, bad implementation.

Government thinks they know how to do things best.  Often times they have GOOD ideas, but they just can't for the life of them implement them in such a way that benefit the Americans the best.  They just can't seem to do it right.  Just about all government run entitlement programs are running out of money, social security, medicare, medicaid are all going bankrupt.  Postal service going bankrupt that they are thinking about cutting another day of non-service to save money.  The way government run things just don't make any sense.

Instead of helping small business owners, the people that actually create 70%+ of American jobs, they are too busy giving large corporations bailout money and taking over them.

Again, nobody's defending insurance companies, nobody's saying we don't need a healthcare reform.  But we do not need that 1,000 page piece of junk with loopholes, pork, and changes that won't make things better.  By the way, there are only small fractions of the population that really *need* healthcare.  I'm fine with reforming the system so they can be included.  Just don't do a total revamp the way they are trying to hurry through, especially when most of them either 1) haven't read the 1,000 page bill, or 2) don't understand it just like most of the people.

Originally posted by clwoods

Originally posted by Falice

Guys help me out here, I'm not very smart, but I'm trying to make sense of this whole insurance thing and a few other issues that are taking place currently in our country.

 

Why are average people defending the insurance companies as an argument against health reform? What benefit do some of these folks see (for themselves) when they express concern that a government run insurance option would affect profits for private insurance?

Why are conservatives so eager to defend private industry, I can name dozens/hundreds (Enron, Haliburton, FF, etc) of private corporations that have ruined peoples lives around the world and here at home, why are individuals, especially those that are not wealthy so adamant about preserving private industry in its current shape and form?

Why are these same people ignoring the fact that we already have social services in place, police, firefighters, medicare, etc., would they prefer to privatize these services as well?

I just don't understand the logic behind all of this, it's just pure crazy talk to me.

Everyone else has posted pretty lengthy answers, and I'm not in the mood to read them, so I'm going to answer your question in a short manner and move on.

 

Common people, most at least, believe in God.  Republicans play the God and Religion cards, so the common man follows believing them on other aspects because they proclaim piousness so heavily that people don't want to doubt their sincerity.  The common man is then spoon fed the other ideas that Republicans want implanted in their heads.  Christianity plays to a flock mentality, so does the Republican party.

 

Again I haven't read anything anyone else has written, but I know what I've written is true. 

lol did you even read the OP statement and question?

brain cells man!!! use em!

Originally posted by outfctrl

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by outfctrl

If this Bill is slammed down our throats, you will see a huge change in future elections.  People will vote out all those politicians that supported this bill.

 

I don't think anything is being "rammed down your throat".

We had elections, these are the representatives people voted for, obviously you were out voted. That's the way Democracy (yes, a representative republic is a form of Democracy) works.

You're exactly right, if you don't like the results, you get your chance to change it in the next election. Again, Democracy in action.

You're basically saying you don't like Democracy, because your side didn't win. That's just sour grapes. Democracy in the form of a Representative Republic doesn't work based on polls. The American public doesn't get to vote on every issue. If that were the case, we wouldn't need Congress.

 

Look at the polls.  Even the people who voted for these democrats are having second thoughts about their decision.  Sure, they wanted change, but not like this.  Half the people that attend these townhalls are democrats who voted for them.

My mother is a democrate who voted for Obama. She's also a Cardiologist.
 

She's also angier than hell with what Obama is trying to do to Healthcare. She said its one of the most stupidest things she has seen in a good long time.

Originally posted by Enigma

Originally posted by outfctrl

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by outfctrl

If this Bill is slammed down our throats, you will see a huge change in future elections.  People will vote out all those politicians that supported this bill.

 

I don't think anything is being "rammed down your throat".

We had elections, these are the representatives people voted for, obviously you were out voted. That's the way Democracy (yes, a representative republic is a form of Democracy) works.

You're exactly right, if you don't like the results, you get your chance to change it in the next election. Again, Democracy in action.

You're basically saying you don't like Democracy, because your side didn't win. That's just sour grapes. Democracy in the form of a Representative Republic doesn't work based on polls. The American public doesn't get to vote on every issue. If that were the case, we wouldn't need Congress.

 

Look at the polls.  Even the people who voted for these democrats are having second thoughts about their decision.  Sure, they wanted change, but not like this.  Half the people that attend these townhalls are democrats who voted for them.

My mother is a democrate who voted for Obama. She's also a Cardiologist.
 

She's also angier than hell with what Obama is trying to do to Healthcare. She said its one of the most stupidest things she has seen in a good long time.

Did she just announce her credentials to you and called it stupid, or did she give you an actual reason? 

Originally posted by deviliscious  

No one wants to discuss what should be in the bill, instead they ramble on about libs this conservatives that, throwing nonsense back and forth that has nothing to do with what should be in this bill, and what should not. No, that was never considered, they just threw it together and said " here is your reform" when in reality it is a big pile of poo served up on a silver platter.

It really disgusts me that people are that accepting of  something that is this important when it is so poorly done.  Lives are at stake here, and the waste of time they spent on this nonsense just made it take that much longer before we ever see REAL healthcare reform, if ever...

Giving the insurers more power is not the solution either. This is a mess...

Wasn't there a time in the history of the United States in which bills were debated on the floor of the House and the Senate before being voted on?

That amendments were proposed to certain provisions?

Or am I imagining all that?

Originally posted by olddaddy

Originally posted by deviliscious  

No one wants to discuss what should be in the bill, instead they ramble on about libs this conservatives that, throwing nonsense back and forth that has nothing to do with what should be in this bill, and what should not. No, that was never considered, they just threw it together and said " here is your reform" when in reality it is a big pile of poo served up on a silver platter.

It really disgusts me that people are that accepting of  something that is this important when it is so poorly done.  Lives are at stake here, and the waste of time they spent on this nonsense just made it take that much longer before we ever see REAL healthcare reform, if ever...

Giving the insurers more power is not the solution either. This is a mess...

 

Wasn't there a time in the history of the United States in which bills were debated on the floor of the House and the Senate before being voted on?

That amendments were proposed to certain provisions?

Or am I imagining all that?

 

 

No bill HAS been voted on except the different versions that have come out of committees. Obviously those debates are small and closed.

You have to have that before they're debated on the floor, and any further amendments are added (there's already been amendments).

So I'm not sure wha you were insinuating there, but yes, today there still exists debate on the floor before bills are passed and amendment processes.

Originally posted by Falice

...

"Well said Pop, Dec, Laser and others, I really do feel that it boils down to one word now and that is opposite. Regardless of what Obama does, they are going to have to do the opposite; this was probably true for every Dem that was in a leadership position in recent history, but probably even more so for Obama."

By using the word "they", you are also including members of the Democratic party correct?  Or referring only to all conservatives, which would include Democrats as well, right?

"I find it interesting that from the conservative point of view it's all about being heard now and freedom of speech, when during the previous administration legitimate protests which were against the lies that Bush spewed (war, fear mongering, etc) was considered by these same hypocrites to be "un-American". I can guarantee you that if ANYONE of us was toting a gun within 20 miles of Bush, we would have instantly been picked up, labeled terrorist, and shipped off to Gitmo."

That would depend on the time of attempting to carry a firearm or weapon near to the President.  To do so right after September 11th, 2001; even if legal to do, most likely would result in some form of detainment.  As time has healed, the security restrictions should relax.  As for lying, you must also include the members of Congress as well, not just the administration.  And if I remember correctly there is some town in Vermont with an arrest warrent for Mr. Bush.  Nothing has happen to that town for being 'unAmerican" even during a time of war.

"Why can't the Dems just do what they really want to do, especially since they have the majority?"

Because there are inner differences and factions within all parties.  Not all Democrats are Liberals and not all Republicans are Conservatives.  There are also the Centralists, the Extremists and all flavors in between to deal with.  The problems with passing the Health Care Reform cannot be blamed on the Republicans since they no longer have control.  Assuming that the problems or hold-ups are due to Conservatives is of limited thinking, there are other forms of beliefs and political parties at work.

I would like to know though why members of Congress get exclusions from the health bill.  I can understand the administration having special treatment (the stress takes years of life away and the power resides in only two people), but not Congress.  Hummm, so by using the same logical point of view against Republicans in the quoted post, I would then have to say, 90% of all Democrats believe in "Do what I say, not what I do."  If that statement of mine is to be refuted, then by logic so must be of the opinions about the "crazy side."

As I predicted, and I think I shared that prediction on this forum, Obama would not be "big/powerful enough" to effect real and meaningful change.  The energy and momentum that propelled Obama to the White House is needed - now.  If you supported Obama during the campaign, then you need to support him more now than ever. 

If you support competition and choice in the health care insurance industry, then YOU --indeed, you-- need to lobby YOUR duly elected representative.

If not, we are going to lose choice, competition, and cost-reduction in the health care insurance industry.

I am going to answer the OP without reading the thread, I know sacrilege but I can sum up the answer to the questions posed as....Why?

Greed.

As a person from the UK I am, to Americans, a borderline Communist.  The most right-wing of our main political parties, The Conservative Party....supposedly the Republicans to our Democrats, are almost communists to staunch Republican Americans.  So I have had massive rows on the internet that went on for days, if not weeks at a time and involved not just banter but some serious information gathering to help prove points.

The thing is, I even argued with a Republican who was extremely smart, and not  the usual bigoted idiot...these smart republicans do exist.  So our arguments were never one-sided, as many of them seem sometimes.  He made his points and he made them well, he raised interesting issues and he linked to reputable sources to justify his opinion....of course he was still wrong, this is the internet after all, but he made a good argument.

In the end though after months of arguing over whether social health care, pensions, social housing, public transport etc etc were good or not it basically came down to personal greed and selfishness.   Even those in America who are not particularly rich defend the system which creates the wealth because they have been sold the dream of being wealthy.  They don't want to change the system, they simply want to work the system for their benefit to become wealthy, and it doesn't matter if you point out the absolute and obvious truth....not everyone can be rich....for their answer is simple....as long as I am, I don't care.

In the UK, and as far as I know every other European country, we have a huge swathe of rich people.  I think London has its fair share of millionaires.  However, we don't sell the dream of being rich as much as America does.  I think we try, but we are British and we just suck at enthusiasm, we're just rubbish at it.  (ending a sentence on a preposition do forgive me grammer geeks).   We don't sell the idea to every poor kid living in poverty that they too can be the Prime Minister or insanely rich.

So people are less inclined to defend systems that create rich people, because they don't neccessarily see themselves becoming those rich people, so have no desire to continue the system.

This is changing, the homogenisation of the American system is prevalent and does continue to influence the British Culture, but I do think there is still enough common sense prevailing to stop that becoming a complete reality so far.

Originally posted by declaredemer

As I predicted, and I think I shared that prediction on this forum, Obama would not be "big/powerful enough" to effect real and meaningful change.  The energy and momentum that propelled Obama to the White House is needed - now.  If you supported Obama during the campaign, then you need to support him more now than ever. 

 

 

If you support competition and choice in the health care insurance industry, then YOU --indeed, you-- need to lobby YOUR duly elected representative.

 

 

If not, we are going to lose choice, competition, and cost-reduction in the health care insurance industry.

Change would be changing directions. Socialized medicine is continuing in the same direction we have been for half a century. With Obama, as I predicted, we are seeing more of the same, only worse.

If people want change it won't come from Republicrats like Obama.

Originally posted by clwoods

Originally posted by Falice

Now my follow-up question to the same group is this, if we know that the other side is mostly comprised of crazy, why are we trying to work with them? I'm referring to the Republicans in the House and Senate that are pandering to the fringe within their communities, I guess that's somewhere around 90% of the House and Senate repubs.

Why can't the Dems just do what they really want to do, especially since they have the majority?

 

 

 

Crazy or not the Republicans in office were elected by American citizens, so that these citizens could have a voice, you can't drown out their voice.

Money drowns out the people's voice all the time.

Honestly I don't see why Americans even vote anymore. The only thing your vote does is deciding who gets paid by "special interest groups". Corporations, not the people, have been running America for decades.

 I honestly believe 95% of people who bitch about healthcare reform have NO idea whats actually in the bill. The sheer ignorance spewed at townhall meetings and Fox news propaganda just spreads the misinformation.

Healthcare needs fixing. If you don't agree with that then you must be retarded. We pay the most for the worst worldwide. To be honest I don't even understand what the right wingnut argument is. Under the plan you will end up paying less for the same doctors/service you have now, plus there will be a public option which will drive competition and lower rates even more. The bill will go through, and if the republicans keep up their track record of misinformed hicks they won't stop anything.

I just have to laugh whenever some guy with a mustache gets up with his NRA card pinned to his shirt and yells to "keep government off my medicare!" Fucking idiots.

Originally posted by protoroc

Originally posted by clwoods

Originally posted by Falice

Now my follow-up question to the same group is this, if we know that the other side is mostly comprised of crazy, why are we trying to work with them? I'm referring to the Republicans in the House and Senate that are pandering to the fringe within their communities, I guess that's somewhere around 90% of the House and Senate repubs.

Why can't the Dems just do what they really want to do, especially since they have the majority?

 

 

 

Crazy or not the Republicans in office were elected by American citizens, so that these citizens could have a voice, you can't drown out their voice.

 

Money drowns out the people's voice all the time.

Honestly I don't see why Americans even vote anymore. The only thing your vote does is deciding who gets paid by "special interest groups". Corporations, not the people, have been running America for decades.

Sadly there a lot of truth to what you say, but not voting is not a solution.

Originally posted by Netzoko

 I honestly believe 95% of people who bitch about healthcare reform have NO idea whats actually in the bill. The sheer ignorance spewed at townhall meetings and Fox news propaganda just spreads the misinformation.

Healthcare needs fixing. If you don't agree with that then you must be retarded. We pay the most for the worst worldwide. To be honest I don't even understand what the right wingnut argument is. Under the plan you will end up paying less for the same doctors/service you have now, plus there will be a public option which will drive competition and lower rates even more. The bill will go through, and if the republicans keep up their track record of misinformed hicks they won't stop anything.

I just have to laugh whenever some guy with a mustache gets up with his NRA card pinned to his shirt and yells to "keep government off my medicare!" Fucking idiots.

I have to agree...  However, I'm not sure that the current bill being proposed is a step in the right direction to the true reform that is needed. 

Originally posted by declaredemer

If you support competition and choice in the health care insurance industry, then YOU --indeed, you-- need to lobby YOUR duly elected representative.

 If not, we are going to lose choice, competition, and cost-reduction in the health care insurance industry.

Why do you think were marching On mass to stop them at townhalls, and Writeing in to tell them No?

The bills are what will kill Choice, Competition, and Costs will skyrocket.

Originally posted by Netzoko

 I honestly believe 95% of people who bitch about healthcare reform have NO idea whats actually in the bill. The sheer ignorance spewed at townhall meetings and Fox news propaganda just spreads the misinformation.

I honestly believe 95% of people who are for this healthcare bill have NO idea what's actually in this bill, INCLUDING the senators and congressmen that are voting on them.  They actually admit to not having read the whole bill, our president admitted to not have read or understood the whole bill a day after he gave a full primetime speech on it.

Seriously, you are getting mad at the wrong people, and being totally partisan.  American people are mad because

1) the government officials who should be working for us are not listening,

2) the government officials who should represent the people are not representing us, but instead trying to represent the government,

3) the government officials who should read the bills they are voting for are not reading and understanding them, and are giving speeches and talking points without really knowing the full in's and out's of the bills,

4) if the government officials can't understand the bills, how do they expect ordinary citizens to understand this 1,000+ pages of mess?

People want reform, both parties have talked about it, but neither parties have proposed the right reform.  They're both too busy catering to the corporations and special interest groups, and the bills that should be about reform are filled with loopholes and pork.  This isn't the reform we need.

Originally posted by Ekibiogami

Originally posted by declaredemer

If you support competition and choice in the health care insurance industry, then YOU --indeed, you-- need to lobby YOUR duly elected representative.

 If not, we are going to lose choice, competition, and cost-reduction in the health care insurance industry.

 

Why do you think were marching On mass to stop them at townhalls, and Writeing in to tell them No?

The bills are what will kill Choice, Competition, and Costs will skyrocket.

Will kill choice? 

What choice do you have right now but to either go with an -individual plan- which if you have a pre-existing condition you may just be out of luck, with extremly high premiums that could exclude certain illnisses.  Or, Group health plan, where your choice depends on your employer and what plan they deceide to provide for the company at any given time.  Its not like you can just pick any plan knowing you will be able to keep it for as long as you wish.

Exactly, Earthgirl.  And those individual plans are not even tax-deductible.  The system current hits the regular American (not government employee, not corporate employee, not individually wealthy) the hardest with the highest costs, least coverage, no tax deductions, pre-existing nonsense, and little recourse when under-insured.

It is really about helping the American that does not benefit from a large employer-based plan such as the government, major corporations, etc.

Choice is something they should be reforming, and unfortunately they opt to push for a government takeover instead.  Yes we need more choices.

1) We need to be able to buy insurance across state lines, why this hasn't been done I don't know.  This will open up a world of competition and competition always push price down, just look at how price changed when AT&T finally got competition.  I used to pay over $60 a month for long distance calling plans, now it's $20.  Competition will really help, state & government beaurocracy needs to get out of the way because they're the reasons why we can't buy across state lines.

2) Those with pre-existing conditions that can't get insurance from a private company should be offered insurance by the government, at competitive pricing.  I'm 100% fine with government handling this and giving people insurance they *need*.

Originally posted by Mardy

 they opt to push for a government takeover instead. 

A "government takeover."  This is just ridiculous. 

Originally posted by declaredemer

Originally posted by Mardy

 they opt to push for a government takeover instead. 

 

A "government takeover."  This is just ridiculous. 

So out of what I said, this is the only thing you could quote and comment on?  And you wonder why the debate & discussion goes nowhere.

Show me how the current healthcare bill is not a government takeover.  I'm talking about the current bill, not what they are *thinking* about removing.

Originally posted by Mardy

Choice is something they should be reforming, and unfortunately they opt to push for a government takeover instead.  Yes we need more choices.

1) We need to be able to buy insurance across state lines, why this hasn't been done I don't know.  This will open up a world of competition and competition always push price down, just look at how price changed when AT&T finally got competition.  I used to pay over $60 a month for long distance calling plans, now it's $20.  Competition will really help, state & government beaurocracy needs to get out of the way because they're the reasons why we can't buy across state lines.

2) Those with pre-existing conditions that can't get insurance from a private company should be offered insurance by the government, at competitive pricing.  I'm 100% fine with government handling this and giving people insurance they *need*.

 

 

Competion is good to lower the price, that's true.  But government run program also do the trick.  Just take electricity for example.  Here, Hydro-Quebec (goverment run business) make us pay 1/3 (or less, depending of where you are) of what you guys probably pay for your electricity. 1 month of heating during winter cost me between 50 and 70$ wich is a complet joke.  ALL the profit go back to everyone of us without worry.

Well recently we had a little problem with it. Fucking hydro  was about to give money to private school (friends of the PDG) but everyone saw that and now they are not allowed to give charity to anyone.  That's how it is supposed to be. We the people tell them what to do to a certain degree.  Try telling that to a private business.

There are probably a whole lot of gramatical error in my text, sorry about that.

Originally posted by Mardy

Choice is something they should be reforming, and unfortunately they opt to push for a government takeover instead.  Yes we need more choices.

1) We need to be able to buy insurance across state lines, why this hasn't been done I don't know.  This will open up a world of competition and competition always push price down, just look at how price changed when AT&T finally got competition.  I used to pay over $60 a month for long distance calling plans, now it's $20.  Competition will really help, state & government beaurocracy needs to get out of the way because they're the reasons why we can't buy across state lines.

2) Those with pre-existing conditions that can't get insurance from a private company should be offered insurance by the government, at competitive pricing.  I'm 100% fine with government handling this and giving people insurance they *need*.

 

 

The problem with #2)  With Insurance you are spreading the personal financial risk over a large group, the bigger the better.  Folks pay into this, and what you get is a "pool of money" which can be drawn from by those who need medical care.  I will not go into this concept to deep since you probably understand how this works already.  Now if the government only handles those who have pre-existing conditions ..... where do you think the money will come from to cover them?

Originally posted by Mardy

Originally posted by declaredemer

Originally posted by Mardy

 they opt to push for a government takeover instead. 

 

A "government takeover."  This is just ridiculous. 

 

So out of what I said, this is the only thing you could quote and comment on?  And you wonder why the debate & discussion goes nowhere.

 

Show me how the current healthcare bill is not a government takeover.  I'm talking about the current bill, not what they are *thinking* about removing.

The debate goes nowhere because this is not a government takeover.  Now you want me to prove a negative?  I know you never took "argumentation."  I did.  When you make a claim, you must support that claim.  YOU have the burden.  It is YOUR burden to show ME and this COMMUNITY how the bill is a "government takeover."  

You are gullible, and the Republican party plays on your gullibility.  You will believe anything if it sounds right (from "death taxes" to "death panels" to "government takeover").

It is just plainly silly. 

Originally posted by Earthgirl

Originally posted by Ekibiogami

Originally posted by declaredemer

If you support competition and choice in the health care insurance industry, then YOU --indeed, you-- need to lobby YOUR duly elected representative.

 If not, we are going to lose choice, competition, and cost-reduction in the health care insurance industry.

 

Why do you think were marching On mass to stop them at townhalls, and Writeing in to tell them No?

The bills are what will kill Choice, Competition, and Costs will skyrocket.

 

Will kill choice? 

What choice do you have right now but to either go with an -individual plan- which if you have a pre-existing condition you may just be out of luck, with extremly high premiums that could exclude certain illnisses.  Or, Group health plan, where your choice depends on your employer and what plan they deceide to provide for the company at any given time.  Its not like you can just pick any plan knowing you will be able to keep it for as long as you wish.

You do realise EVERYTHING you just listed as Bad is in place because of the Government regulateing it right?

This system we have is Not free market. Not even close. But its better than this alternitive.

And I find it funny that the countrys were trying to Copy are all Turning In Mass from the system yall want.. I thought we were supposed to stop being aragent and lissen to the rest of the world now?

Also. How is this supposed to lower costs? Or increase Coverage? When the government is Chokeing the insurance companys to death?

We can Just ignore the Trillions the government is in the Hole for the systems that are in place.. Yeah they will do it Right This time. Good plan people, Good Plan.