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Originally posted by Kyleran
I agree completely. Somehow today's more casual gamers feel they "deserve' the same rewards as everyone else, regardless of how much effort or time they put into the game. WOW as well as most other games are catering to this mentality because it sells well, but excellence in gaming doesn't matter anymore. Back to the OP, the leveling curve is supposed to be fun (at least the first time through) and a well designed game will be enjoyable from start to end. But there is some validity in the suggestion that leveling up is the 'initiation' period, and yes, you do have to pay your dues first to be part of the team. (your friends did, why shouldn't you) Heck, in most game almost any regular player can reach max level in 3 months or less, hardly a huge burden,
Well, it's working for them. WoW is more popular than ever. No other MMO has grown or even retained as many players as WoW has over the years in a percentage comparison. It seems to me, the majority of griping is from hardcores who don't even play WoW, while the 11.5 million current gamers continue to embrace the new changes. Blizzard has said in many interviews that many of the casual changes are by player requests and there are a lot of them. I think all of the negativity is from hardcores who are upset about losing their "golden child" status in the industry. |
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Being popular does not really tell us anything about the game itself. Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy for a reason. |
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Originally posted by Axehilt Well, FWIW I think the MMORPG.com rules / criteria on what games should be listed need a review. I have raised this with Stradden, but he is 'resolute' if nothing else. If you want to make a point... maybe we should push MMORPG.com to list "Farmtown" since it may actually qualify? That could put the cat amongst the pigeons huh?
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Originally posted by Scot That's the issue isn't it? |
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Originally posted by thexrated
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Originally posted by Axehilt A while back I stopped trying to convince MMORPG.com forumites that MMORPG actually means Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game (which describes some facebook game gameplay.) They kept looking at me like I was crazy and telling me, "No stupid, it stands for Persistent World Game!" Although TBH I was in a thread months back saying how MMORPG.com should continue to cover all MMOs (MMOFPS/MMORTS and the like). Mainly out of self interest, since those genres have potential. Chess can be a multiplayer game, but the game design itself makes it a two player game. The first problem is how you interpret the word "massively". The second problem is what you consider as a game design that features that interpretation. I think the etymology of it's use in computer games is rather intersting: "The term MMOG or MMORPG first appeared around 1995, and was used to describe games like Interactive Magic's Air Warrior flight simulator, which allowed up to 100 pilots to take flight in the same virtual sky. A year or so later Trip Hawkins pitched 3DO's Meridian 59 as a massively multiplayer game, and it was also used to market Ultima Online, which was released in 1997. The term didn't really become widespread until EverQuest took off several years later and it was clear that graphical MMOGs were here to stay. The acrynom is often abbreviated as "MMO," and several different genres of game have been adapted to the concept, including roleplaying games (RPG), first-person shooters (FPS) and real-time strategy games (RTS)." - source If you read the article, it also makes an interesting conclusion. It is good to keep in mind that even a title like WoW could be considered to be a MMO only partially, as the core gameplay is largely instanced. The same with games like Guild Wars, partially MMO. The author of the article does not even think 100 player qualify as a MMO, while it was the origin of the term. |
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Originally posted by Gyrus
Well it boils down to what people are genuinely interested in (especially the site's content authors who'd have to do the footwork on implementing the pages.) I'm not sure anyone's interested in farmtown. As you may have noticed even I have a pretty healthy disdain for the current wave of social MMOs (similar to the disdain I held for early MMORPGs, really.) I may be sorta harsh on EVE, but damn is this a cool trailer (EVE Dominion). |
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Originally posted by Netzoko You sound like such a WoW player. I played CoX for 5 years never getting to max level, I would just make a new char. The "real" game was leveling up, not grinding at max level like in WoW. If you don't like leveling, don't play an RPG.
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Originally posted by Axehilt
Well it boils down to what people are genuinely interested in (especially the site's content authors who'd have to do the footwork on implementing the pages.) I'm not sure anyone's interested in farmtown. As you may have noticed even I have a pretty healthy disdain for the current wave of social MMOs (similar to the disdain I held for early MMORPGs, really.) I did a little research. Not only are people interested... turns out it's the WoW killer.
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I certainly felt this way when i tried lotro and turbine could have just given me a fully developed character to get straight into the storylines with like others i suggest if you haven't tried it look into the snadbox games like eve online(or maybe bounty bay/voyage century) or something more copmplex like anarchy online |
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I have tried tons of MMORPG. All of them made me go away by killing 15 boars in first days but Guild Wars. I am a pvp player I don't wanna kill stupid mobs and hold hands with carebears. Waiting for: Guild Wars 2, The Secret World |
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Originally posted by Gyrus
No. An MMO is NOT just a single player RPG with an online aspect. That is what MMOs are becoming because of recent design trends - but that is not what they 'are' or what they should be. Is there any other way it could feel? Yes. Like a community - from start to finish. Aside from the initial 'training' an MMO player should feel the "MM" part and feel like a part of that. They should feel that they are a part of something, that they need other people and that other people need them. It doesn't have to be in a big way - maybe just that they are part of a production chain or that they are a border guard watching a pass or... anything. But just feeling that they have to "kill 5 more wolves to reach level X" is not the experience we should be striving for. There are no new ideas just because you are online? That's a sad comment. Game Designers (in fact all Designers) usually love a new medium. One of the first things they do is look at the possibilities of it and what makes it unique that they can use. Computers are good at processing and storing data... lots of data. And every year the technology advances alowing computers to do more and more data processing quicker and quicker. They are now also getting better at displaying that data (graphics). New technologies also mean they are better at exchanging data.
You are completely ignoring the fact that RPGs are a genre of game that existed LONG before the Internet was born. As a genre it has certain aspects. Questing for example, gaining levels. You can't just ignore that aspect or it simply isn't an RPG.
Just because it has gone online doesn't change the genre and doesn't give designers some magical ability to redefine the genre.
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You have your objective... hit cap, pvp, raid, get gear, etc.,.. The software companies have their objectives... sell copies, keep sub numbers up and growing, keep players sub'd to their game month after month, sell expansions, MAKE MONEY! If you were get 'end game' right off the bat with games... you'd quit within a few months. You'd get bored quickly. Look at all of the game hopping with games as they currently are. Going from 0-cap level in no time flat would result in catastrophe for gaming companies and the overall landscape of MMO's (bad for players, too).
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Originally posted by Gyrus I did a little research. Not only are people interested... turns out it's the WoW killer.
It really is. Which is why I think they have such potential, once they expand past their infancy. Zynga has 80 million active users across their games. It's friggin' ridiculous :P I may be sorta harsh on EVE, but damn is this a cool trailer (EVE Dominion). |
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Can we just get rid of the notion that new players being as viable as veterans is the way to go. By creating a system where this works you make stats useless and by removing stats completely you remove the progression of the game. The problem isn't that the end game is better (for most games at least). The problem is that this new generation of gamers are focused on being the best and will never be satisfied with the journey. They just want to hit max level and gloat. It doesn't matter how much content you add to the game, people will grind past it. If you actually take the time to get into the lore, talk to NPCs, read quest dialogue you would notice that most games have a decent story to follow but we get so focused on clicking next and clearing out our quest log we miss all of it. I think adding full voice acting to all NPCs will allow for a lot of players to get more into the game. You'll still have players skipping this but it would help. I think another problem is that with all these quick ways to travel, game worlds have become smaller and smaller. It used to be about adventure and discovering things on your own. Now it's about finding the most efficient way to level and skipping over unnecessary content. We have reduced MMOs to a mathamtical equation. That's why everyone uses those mods to maxmize exp per hour and dps. This is not the developers fault, this is our fault for getting so caught up in the numbers game that we forgotten why we started playing MMOs in the first place. and of course everyone has a different reason, but I believe you will find a lot more enjoyment in the games you play if you take a look at what draws you to the genre. An example of this is if you enjoy a large open world to explore at your own pace, then stop using guides and quick transports and discover things for yourself.
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Originally posted by Netzoko Actually alot of people in level based games enjoy leveling alts. So to them that beginner and middle content is worth something. Actually it's worth more since both raiding, instance pvping and rep grinds are sucky to them so they just level every toon to max or twink for fun.
Why would I play a pathetic themepark MMO when I could enjoy a masterpiece like Mass Effect, Oblivion, Fallout 3 and Dragon Age? |
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Originally posted by Dafong
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Originally posted by Gyrus
Full name Tigole Bitties, switch the first letters around. I remember him, and I remember LoS, I remember Irontail and his lessons on Plane of Mischief, I remember when I first got bound to the PoM. Doesn't change anything. EQ did not create the community, the players created the community.
Whether you call it XP or you call it something else, the premise is the same. The initial point was that gameplay within an RPG shouldn't be like a single player game....I pointed out that its an RPG and whether you like it or not, it is an established Genre, that was around LONG before the internet was and that if game makers want to stay within the genre of RPG, then they will have to stick to certain conventions, and when you stick to those conventions it will feel like a single player game with an aspect of co-operation. To now talk about XP or kill numbers for mobs is in my opinion utterly irrelevent to the original premise.
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I am sorry th OP does not get it,originally i thought the post was about the OP"getting it" and wonders why others don't. I am not of that same group you say ONLY enjoy end game,i do not even care about PVP period.I try to enjoy games i play from the first minute i enter the game.Some i know take a small bit getting used ot,but if it offers something i give it a chance. To myself the end game is what matters the LEAST,that is usually the point of the game that 90% of your previous spells and abilities have become useless,obsolete,now you are stuck with that same group of hotbar icons for the rest of your time in the game.What i do is reroll a new class,try to enjoy the game from a different perspective,if it's not fun enough to do that again,then i will quit playing,i have ZERO interest in end game drama. |
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Originally posted by Wizardry
While I generally agree with your perspective, I would consider you to be in the minority.
As you can see, for me it's not so much about endgame content as I'm not a raider or a hardcore number cruncher. These days, I just want to log in, socialize, and have fun, and if I have to be the max level in order to get the most out of that then that's what I will want to do. |
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Originally posted by Netzoko
Typically, I'll play a game all the way through, attending to all the various aspects therein. I made this! (My favorite sig to date.) |
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Originally posted by metalhead980 Actually alot of people in level based games enjoy leveling alts. So to them that beginner and middle content is worth something. Actually it's worth more since both raiding, instance pvping and rep grinds are sucky to them so they just level every toon to max or twink for fun.
/me |
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Originally posted by SuperXero89
While I generally agree with your perspective, I would consider you to be in the minority.
As you can see, for me it's not so much about endgame content as I'm not a raider or a hardcore number cruncher. These days, I just want to log in, socialize, and have fun, and if I have to be the max level in order to get the most out of that then that's what I will want to do.
Actually, we are not in the minority. Even in WoW, less than 20% of the player base participates in raiding content and it's about the same or a bit higher for PvP. Hardcores, powergamers and PvPers are all niche in today's market. Even back in the days of EQ, hardcores and powergamers didn't dominate the market like they thought. EQ garnered more than 2 million subscribers over a several year period, yet they never retained more than 450,000 at it's peak of popularity. SOE was so desperate to capture that crowd, they created a much more casual EQ2 in the hopes of bagging those 1.5 million casually oriented players. |
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The key here is that more games should find ways to encourage high level players, especially those not interested in raiding, to adventure and socialize with lower level players. The game I am most familiar with, Everquest 2, does this in two ways - mentoring and the achievement experience system. I think mentoring should be an option in a lot of games, but it is still fairly rare. Basically it lets higher level characters reduce their level to that of a lower level character - keeping all of their abilities and hotbars the same but just scaling their effects down to the lower level. So if you want to explore a dungeon but there aren't many characters at your level, max level players can join and just mentor down so everyone can enjoy it - this system works very well if you have higher level friends as the OP mentioned. Why would max level players want to do this? The second point. Achievement experience is a key part of EQ2 - basically it is similar to the talent points in WoW, but instead of just getting them automatically as you level, you have to accumulate experience on a separate bar to get the points. You get achievement experience (commonly referred to as AA) by doing quests, exploring new areas, killing named mobs, collecting sets of items scattered around the world, etc. This system means that higher level players are usually looking for more AA, and mentoring down to lower level players is a perfect way to get it - to explore old dungeons they passed over, do quests they missed, etc. Also, of course, games should make the "middle part" as interesting as possible. If people feel like the game is work, or if they just have to do a bunch of repetitive quests, they won't have fun, which is the point after all. Good quest design, fun areas to explore, and solo or group options should all be part of the mix. -------------------------------- |
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Originally posted by Peregrine2
Wouldn't a high level player be able to stomp through lowbie content and kinda have a boring time of it? Or are there upper level restrictions and mentoring is basically like Exemplar in COX? Sounds like a good system either way. Although my experience as an EQ2 newb about a year ago was not much better than it was at release. The world just didn't hit it off for me, for some reason. I may be sorta harsh on EVE, but damn is this a cool trailer (EVE Dominion). |
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