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Originally posted by Dekron

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Originally posted by popinjay
That consumption tax will kill the average American family as we are a high consumption nation; that's how our economy works, unless you haven't been paying attention into what got us to a recession in the first place.

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Well now, isn't that one of your side's arguments? We consume too much? Consumption should be reduced?

If I put away for college for my kids, that is a luxury, if I buy toys for my kids, that is a luxury. It does not take much money to raise a child. Those who think otherwise are poor at handling money.

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Independants don't argue that at all. And the above orange bolded statement you typed is simply.. I don't know WHAT to say about that.

The Fair Tax doesn't phase the wealthy because all of the normal, everyday things people need to live and survive were taxed as "value", they'd never make it. Rich people don't live hand to mouth or aren't "two paychecks away" from foreclosure when they lose their jobs. Upper class people simply would laugh at a value added tax on a yacht.

Power? Stop sounding like Fishermage now. This isn't about "power". Politicians enact things and legislation that benefits them and their friends. When Cheney was Secretary, he gave Halliburton grants and money to "study" private security in our military. When he retired from that job, Halliburton then made him CEO. If politicians benefit from something they'll do it if they think Americans aren't watching. It's not about power.

They know that if the average American who is a consumerholic started seeing their stuff getting taxed heavily when they bought it, they'd go nuts. They'd want to know why all their goods cost more and wouldn't care that they are paying less on income, but more over the course of the year. Those politicians wouldn't last two seconds who voted for that.

Fair tax is good on paper if you show someone, but when they realize just how much MORE money they'd be shelling out, either they get hopping mad or they'd spend substantially less. Spending less doesn't help our type of capitalistic economy at all all things being neutral. That type of system depends on people spending more.

I can just imagine a value added tax on braces for kids. That would go over very well. A college education for kids isn't a "luxury" when every economist says that a high school diploma doesn't cut it anymore, and even a regular degree isn't worth much. Why do you think people are going back to school for Masters? So they can get a job or make a decent wage.

College is a luxury?

You really want to set up a system of economic castes and just "haves and have nots" or something, don't you?

Originally posted by DailyBuzz

The point of this thread is to display how the GOP has no ideas. They intend to allow our health care system to continue on the unsustainable path it's on because fighting it politically is scoring them points with the conservative base. They have injected the narrative of liberal/conservative wedge issues.

Let's face it, the GOP has no solutions. The only chance they have to defeat a measure that will benefit nearly all Americans is to link the stand-by wedge issues, that the GOP has used to scare conservatives for well over a decade, in with this legislation. Just look at the people yelling at town halls. They scream about illegals, abortion, assisted suicide, sex changes, unborn right to life, etc.

It's quite obvious that they don't want to debate health care reform. If they were commited to reform, they'd introduce their own plan. No, what they want is to tie wedge issues into these health reform bills.

Oh I must have missed it, I thought you made up complete fabricated text in your OP.
 

I had no idea GOP quotes were used, I usually include a link for the coolaid drinkers.

"They scream illegals, abortion, assisted suicide, sex changes, unborn"....that's EXACTLY what this health bill is about and you know it...don't play coy. 

Palin followed up her death panel comments with more info to back up her claim but i didn't see one person on here try and refute it...boy i wanted to start that thread too.

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Originally posted by DailyBuzz
The point of this thread is to display how the GOP has no ideas. They intend to allow our health care system to continue on the unsustainable path it's on because fighting it politically is scoring them points with the conservative base. They have injected the narrative of liberal/conservative wedge issues.

Let's face it, the GOP has no solutions. The only chance they have to defeat a measure that will benefit nearly all Americans is to link the stand-by wedge issues, that the GOP has used to scare conservatives for well over a decade, in with this legislation. Just look at the people yelling at town halls. They scream about illegals, abortion, assisted suicide, sex changes, unborn right to life, etc.

It's quite obvious that they don't want to debate health care reform. If they were commited to reform, they'd introduce their own plan. No, what they want is to tie wedge issues into these health reform bills.

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Buzz,

Republicans haven't wanted to have a debate, discussion, allusion to, or mention of ANY form of national healthcare... single payer, public or by fairy, since Nixon in 1974. Heck, they haven't even pretended to until Boehner said a few months ago that the Republican's had their "own" plan on television, and when people read it there wasn't ONE dollar figure in it at all.

That is no mystery and is all factual. There are only a few in the country who even seem to be aware of American history as it pertains to this serious matter.

Originally posted by Faxxer

Originally posted by DailyBuzz

The point of this thread is to display how the GOP has no ideas. They intend to allow our health care system to continue on the unsustainable path it's on because fighting it politically is scoring them points with the conservative base. They have injected the narrative of liberal/conservative wedge issues.

Let's face it, the GOP has no solutions. The only chance they have to defeat a measure that will benefit nearly all Americans is to link the stand-by wedge issues, that the GOP has used to scare conservatives for well over a decade, in with this legislation. Just look at the people yelling at town halls. They scream about illegals, abortion, assisted suicide, sex changes, unborn right to life, etc.

It's quite obvious that they don't want to debate health care reform. If they were commited to reform, they'd introduce their own plan. No, what they want is to tie wedge issues into these health reform bills.

Oh I must have missed it, I thought you made up complete fabricated text in your OP.

Not at all. This information comes directly from the GOP health care reform proposal. I did take some liberty with paraphrasing or interpretation, but you understand the need for that, I'm sure.

I had no idea GOP quotes were used, I usually include a link for the coolaid drinkers.

When the town hall yellers start using verbatim quotes from the health care reform bills in their questions, I'll start using verbatim quotes from the GOP.

"They scream illegals, abortion, assisted suicide, sex changes, unborn"....that's EXACTLY what this health bill is about and you know it...don't play coy. 

See what I mean. You're my prime example.

Palin followed up her death panel comments with more info to back up her claim but i didn't see one person on here try and refute it...boy i wanted to start that thread too.

I don't follow Palin. Please list whichever fabrications she supports here and I'll happily prove her dead wrong.

Originally posted by popinjay

 

Buzz,

Republicans haven't wanted to have a debate, discussion, allusion to, or mention of ANY form of national healthcare... single payer, public or by fairy, since Nixon in 1974. Heck, they haven't even pretended to until Boehner said a few months ago that the Republican's had their "own" plan on television, and when people read it there wasn't ONE dollar figure in it at all.

 

 

That is no mystery and is all factual. There are only a few in the country who even seem to be aware of American history as it pertains to this serious matter.

Oh, I know. Some people don't seem to get it though. They don't even recognize that most of the complaints have nothing to do with health care. To the GOP this is just a political campaign. Since the country is concerned with health care reform, the GOP is trying to attach their social conservative platform to this reform legislation. Oh, sure, they attempt to use fiscal conservative speak, but Obama beat them to it by clearly stating this bill will be deficit neutral. The GOP has no leg to stand on, so they are rallying the republican base through misonformation with social spin.

Originally posted by popinjay 

 

 

College is a luxury?

Yes, college is a luxury. It is not a right. What makes you think otherwise? Tell me, please, where it is an inherent or a Constitutional right to education.

And please, tell me how it is so expensive to raise a child. I would love to hear what your sad expenses are.

You are extremely naive if you do not think taxation equals power. Taxation creates revenue for the government which allows the government to grow and grow and grow. The more tax revenue, the larger the growth. Cut tax revenue, cut big government.

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Originally posted by Dekron

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Originally posted by popinjay 
 
 
College is a luxury?

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Yes, college is a luxury. It is not a right. What makes you think otherwise? Tell me, please, where it is an inherent or a Constitutional right to education.
And please, tell me how it is so expensive to raise a child. I would love to hear what your sad expenses are.
You are extremely naive if you do not think taxation equals power. Taxation creates revenue for the government which allows the government to grow and grow and grow. The more tax revenue, the larger the growth. Cut tax revenue, cut big government.
 

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Words don't seem to work with you, so I'll try graphs so you can grasp the concept of what I'm talking about.

A "fair tax" isn't fair to those people at the bottom and middle class who have to pay the same rate on goods and services that higher income people would have to if there were price increases. The salaries show you that those at the top tiers wouldn't be affected much by price increases, due to more disposable income. Notice millionaires aren't even listed above; that's because college is irrelevant at that point. They can laugh at any added expenses. An expanded tax onto children's clothes is no big deal for a millionaire; but its crucial to working parents.

The tax rate as it is now is fine, there's no need to put MORE taxes on goods/services, just leave the tax rates the same.

Instituting that nonsense tax is the catalyst for creating a permanant underclass/overclass in America. That's not American. That's usually found in other countries where there are college educated and then there are farmers.

I used different style graphs and groupings from different years, so hopefully one will sink in. Let me know if the colors are too distracting for you.

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Originally posted by Dekron

And please, tell me how it is so expensive to raise a child. I would love to hear what your sad expenses are.

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High Cost Of Raising A Child In America

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It is said that babies don't come with an instruction manual. So, raising them through childhood, the school years and off to college is a long and expensive process.

How expensive? The U.S. Department of Agriculture says it partly depends on income and can range from a low of $55,000 to more than $365,000 from birth to adulthood at age 18.

The USDA's “Expenditures on Children by Families” report states that housing makes up about one-third of the costs, while food, childcare and education, on average, run about 16 percent of the total cost. Childbirth, private education or college is not included.

The expenses vary depending on location and income. Costs are highest in the northeastern part of the United States. Urban areas of the west and Midwest are next. The South and rural areas across the country are significantly less expensive.

In 2008, raising a child from birth to 18 can cost a middle-income, two-parent American family an average of $221,190. When adjusted for inflation, that rises to more than $290,000.

On an annual basis, that would range from $11,610 to $13,480 depending on the age of the child. Those 2008 costs are slightly higher than in 2007 and much higher than the $25,000 figure in the first report in 1960, more than $183,000, in 2008 dollars.

The USDA report has been updated annually since 1960. The information is designed to be a resource for courts and state governments in deciding child support guidelines and foster care payments.

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"Earth to Dekron: Earth to Dekron: Come in please... over.

We earthlings aren't sure how much things cost to raise children on YOUR planet, but wherever you are, stay there.

That is all... over."

You know what you can do with your "Fair" Tax.... try and pawn it off on someone else.

Originally posted by popinjay

 

No one said it's a "right". Another strawman with no proof to back up I said that.

Yet again, the pathetic "strawman" response. You asked a question which seemed obvious to mean to a reader "College is a luxury? No it is not!" Why ask the question, if you do not agree? Now, instead of dodging, do you think it is a luxury or a right?

 

Wow! Graphs showing people who have a college degree earn more. That's amazingly obvious!

A "fair tax" isn't fair to those people at the bottom and middle class who have to pay the same rate on goods and services that higher income people would have to if there were price increases.

It is FAIR because everyone pays a share of taxes and no one leeches off others. That is why it is fair. No one should be PUNISHED because they make more money than someone else. EVERYONE should pay taxes if anyone has to. Your flawed belief system thinks the rich should be punished and they have no right to what they earn and those less fortunate should be "given" their "fair share". If they want their fair share, then they need to work for it. If they can't work for it, they don't deserve it!

 

The tax rate as it is now is fine, there's no need to put MORE taxes on goods/services, just leave the tax rates the same.

No, it is not. It punishes those who create jobs and those who earn a large salary. That is an unfair tax system.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Originally posted by popinjay

 

 

A "fair tax" isn't fair to those people at the bottom and middle class who have to pay the same rate on goods and services that higher income people would have to if there were price increases.

And yet you Support public healthcare W/O any movement on the governments part to curb the costs? When the Evadence points out the Smallbuisness will be the one sholdering the brunt of it? Really? you went there?

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Posted by Dekron on 8/13/09:

Yet again, the pathetic "strawman" response. You asked a question which seemed obvious to mean to a reader "College is a luxury? No it is not!" Why ask the question, if you do not agree? Now, instead of dodging, do you think it is a luxury or a right?

Wow! Graphs showing people who have a college degree earn more. That's amazingly obvious!

It is FAIR because everyone pays a share of taxes and no one leeches off others. That is why it is fair. No one should be PUNISHED because they make more money than someone else. EVERYONE should pay taxes if anyone has to. Your flawed belief system thinks the rich should be punished and they have no right to what they earn and those less fortunate should be "given" their "fair share". If they want their fair share, then they need to work for it. If they can't work for it, they don't deserve it!

No, it is not. It punishes those who create jobs and those who earn a large salary. That is an unfair tax system.

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I had to point out the "obvious" to you with the graphs. Finally! One of them got through! Now we can procede with the point again.

With expenses to raise kids/families, people in the MIDDLE and LOWER income brackets cannot shoulder a "fair tax" because it isn't fair to them to pay higher costs for goods that won't affect more affluent and rich people.

This means those middle class/poor families never can save enough for college for their children and realize the "American dream" like everyone else (and YES, everyone in America has a RIGHT to the American dream.. you can quote me on that).

Generations of Americans that were poor and middle class that built this country were able to have their children compete with the inherently rich childrens due to the simple reason of a graduated tax system. They were able to save more of their earnings and not have to spend it on higher child costs with an "fair tax". Why do you think so many Americans today proudly say "My father came over here with nothing, but he worked hard and was able to scrimp/save enough for me and my siblings to attend college. Now I'm a business owner and I create jobs."

Under a "fair tax" system for generations, that would not have been possible. Those families would have been spending more and more on goods/services just to stay alive. They would have gotten poorer and poorer when you thrown in inflationary costs. They work harder and harder but every year, their spending power is less. Now you want to lump on a "fair tax" on top of that as a coffin lid.

No one is getting "punished" under the current tax system. It's fair because of proportions. Without poor and middle class people providing tomorrow's workers, students and inventors this country goes kaput.

You really think some rich, spoiled kids like Paris Hilton are the backbone of this country and is going to "create jobs" without inheritance? Have you lost your intersteller mind?

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Originally posted by Ekibiogami

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Originally posted by popinjay

 
 
A "fair tax" isn't fair to those people at the bottom and middle class who have to pay the same rate on goods and services that higher income people would have to if there were price increases.

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And yet you Support public healthcare W/O any movement on the governments part to curb the costs?

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Originally posted by popinjay

 

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Originally posted by Ekibiogami

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Originally posted by popinjay

 

 
 
A "fair tax" isn't fair to those people at the bottom and middle class who have to pay the same rate on goods and services that higher income people would have to if there were price increases.

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And yet you Support public healthcare W/O any movement on the governments part to curb the costs?

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What are you talking about? I never said that. Go back to the peanut gallery.

 

Lol. If you really dont support the demacratic plan then you REALLY need to make an Entire thread Dedacated to what Popinjay honestly Belives.. Because the rest of us arnt sure where you honestly stand on anything at this point. your twisting and tumbeling more than a ballet dancer.

Originally posted by popinjay

 

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No one is getting "punished" under the current tax system. It's fair because of proportions. Without poor and middle class people providing tomorrow's workers, students and inventors this country goes kaput.

 

You really think some rich, spoiled kids like Paris Hilton are the backbone of this country and is going to "create jobs" without inheritance? Have you lost your intersteller mind?

Are you out of your mind?  How is it fair to tax the rich more just because they make more money?  Your punishing the rich for simply being rich, for doing well in what they do.  Do you think that rich people do not work?  That they do not contribute in any manner? 

The rich are the ones that create new jobs and new business ventures in order to make more money.  Do you think some fairy comes along to make new jobs? 

I have found the culprit who has been lying about Obama's Healthcare proposal. Its HR 3200, the bill itself is full of lies that Obama himself said were not true. Earmarks to Community Organizers and Unions. Forced enrollment if you have no insurance, your insurance isn't good enough, or you change your insurance plan if it isn't exactly the same. Complete government control of Health Insurance Companies(yes they take control of them or they close their business). Rationing for cancer patients, and the elderly. Mandated care for individuals. Flat pay rate for all doctors. There is also language suggestive of forced euthenasia. The Government will have direct access to withdraw funds directly from your bank account. The government cannot be charged for price fixing and there is no appeal process for being denied health services. Ohh and illegals are exempt from paying but get all the benefits. They say we can't do nothing, it doesn't mean we have to go with such a bad bill. BTW not 1 page will reduce costs. They are adding a whole new level of beaurocracy, innefficiency, and kick backs to the process while making everyone else suffer.

That GOP proposal was a joke, but it would be far better then the current plan. This bill doesn't give individuals the gift of healthcare for everyone. It points a gun at their head and says get insurance or else. It also has adverse affects on making it affordable. The only thing it does for costs is subsidize healthcare for democrat special interest groups.

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Originally posted by Cleffy

This bill doesn't give individuals the gift of healthcare for everyone. It points a gun at their head and says get insurance or else. It also has adverse affects on making it affordable. The only thing it does for costs is subsidize healthcare for democrat special interest groups.

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Mainly because the Republicans won't allow Single Payer (which would give that) in the bill. That's why they can't get everyone covered.

This bill is not anywhere near what Obama said because it's been gutted while he tries to play 'partisan'.

Imo, he should stop trying to make a such a pony show to America that he's trying SOOO hard to win Republican's respect (yes, imo he is) and say "Screw them" and work on the remaining blue dogs. The Republicans aren't ever going to sign onto ANY healthcare bill no matter how little is in it. They simply don't want one to begin with, look at their history since Nixon.

I say ignore them and push the plan you want and let America look at that one. Not this crippled bill.

Originally posted by popinjay

 

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Originally posted by Cleffy

 

This bill doesn't give individuals the gift of healthcare for everyone. It points a gun at their head and says get insurance or else. It also has adverse affects on making it affordable. The only thing it does for costs is subsidize healthcare for democrat special interest groups.

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Mainly because the Republicans won't allow Single Payer (which would give that) in the bill. That's why they can't get everyone covered.

This bill is not anywhere near what Obama said because it's been gutted while he tries to play 'partisan'.

 

Imo, he should stop trying to make a such a pony show to America that he's trying SOOO hard to win Republican's respect (yes, imo he is) and say "Screw them" and work on the remaining blue dogs. The Republicans aren't ever going to sign onto ANY healthcare bill no matter how little is in it. They simply don't want one to begin with, look at their history since Nixon.

 

 

I say ignore them and push the plan you want and let America look at that one. Not this crippled bill.

I agree. This way we get a landslide victory in 2010 and we can fix the crap that they put in the bill and remove it long before it has any chance of being implamented.
 

Originally posted by popinjay 

 

With expenses to raise kids/families, people in the MIDDLE and LOWER income brackets cannot shoulder a "fair tax" because it isn't fair to them to pay higher costs for goods that won't affect more affluent and rich people.

 

Why is it not fair. You keep saying it is not, but you cannot give me a reason why it is not fair. It is fair for them to shoulder the same tax burden as everyone else, no matter the income. The rich should not have to take the blunt of the tax burden simply because they are rich. All you can do is say it is not fair. Explain WHY.

This means those middle class/poor families never can save enough for college for their children and realize the "American dream" like everyone else (and YES, everyone in America has a RIGHT to the American dream.. you can quote me on that).

There is no guaranteed "American Dream" or no right to it. If there was, why even strive towards it if your reward is to pay more taxes?

 

Generations of Americans that were poor and middle class that built this country were able to have their children compete with the inherently rich childrens due to the simple reason of a graduated tax system. They were able to save more of their earnings and not have to spend it on higher child costs with an "fair tax". Why do you think so many Americans today proudly say "My father came over here with nothing, but he worked hard and was able to scrimp/save enough for me and my siblings to attend college. Now I'm a business owner and I create jobs."

That's complete Bullshit. Sorry. I do some work in a college within a financial aid department as a systems analyst. Every single day I see people coming in demanding financial aid as it is their right. Those who receive financial aid, especially Pell grants, pay little or no taxes. The average award package with loans, pell, seog and state grants is nearly $18,000. Multiply that if there are multiple children in the household. That is how they go to school. They do not go because of saving money, they go because the taxpayers pay their way. How do they repay them? With a near 10% default rate on student loans. And, if the lucky parent is a business owner "creating jobs", you wish to tax the hell out of them.

 

 

They would have gotten poorer and poorer when you thrown in inflationary costs. They work harder and harder but every year, their spending power is less.

You are still missing the point there is no income tax. These individuals you speak of would still be receiving their government benefits, but this way, they would actually be earning it instead of claiming a benefit they have no entitlement to and simply being a burden on society.

 

 

No one is getting "punished" under the current tax system. It's fair because of proportions. Without poor and middle class people providing tomorrow's workers, students and inventors this country goes kaput.

Yes, the upper middle and upper class are getting punished with a tax gouge of nearly 40% of their incomes.

 

You really think some rich, spoiled kids like Paris Hilton are the backbone of this country and is going to "create jobs" without inheritance? Have you lost your intersteller mind?

Here is your nice "strawman". I never said that every rich person creates jobs. Whether rich by inheritence or rich by business, neither should have to pay more simply because they are rich.

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Originally posted by Dekron

<snip>

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I'll tell you what:

I'll keep the system we have now and I'll keep paying my fair share as dictated by federal law, with no regrets whatsoever.

You keep wishing, hoping and dreaming for a "fair tax" and hold your breath until it comes true.

We'll see which one of us will be happier come tomorrow. :)

Originally posted by popinjay

I'll keep the system we have now and I'll keep paying my fair share as dictated by federal law, with no regrets whatsoever.

 

 

I am very interested what rate that is. I have my assumptions.

Also, thanks for simply ignoring my question why you beleive it is unfair for those who are middle or lower class pay the same percentage as those who are rich.

It leads me to beleive you do not have an answer. But, I am creating that wonderful straw man, aren't I?

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Originally posted by Dekron

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Originally posted by popinjay

I'll keep the system we have now and I'll keep paying my fair share as dictated by federal law, with no regrets whatsoever.
 
 

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I am very interested what rate that is. I have my assumptions.
Also, thanks for simply ignoring my question why you beleive it is unfair for those who are middle or lower class pay the same percentage as those who are rich.
It leads me to beleive you do not have an answer. But, I am creating that wonderful straw man, aren't I?

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I could tell you why again, you'd be all "no way". Then I'd say "yes way". This is because there is no real way to see what happens with a "fair tax" until you actually put it IN. This is what happened with the Reaganomics "trickle-down". It was going to help ALL Americans by giving tax breaks to the wealthy. Ohhhhhhhkayyyyy.

So, for me to tell you why, when you have no stats and I have no stats is round and round. No avoidance there. This isn't even the "fair tax" thread. I was just responding YOU bringing that up in this thread. It's supposed to be the health care plan thread, lol. You could start a "fair tax" thread if you want; perhaps I'll join.

Besides, reread our conversation. I stated WHY it isn't fair. I'll not go into it again, but it would create a system in America that rhymes with "last, bast, vast and mast", which is against our national principles.

At least that's what I think.