This thread isn't meant to critique or complain about hologrinding in any way. Pre-CU SWG is long dead now (officially, anyway), so that would be a totally pointless and silly line of discussion.

When I reminisce about SWG, however, I quite frequently find myself wondering about superior alternatives to hologrinding. It's undeniable that as the hologrind started demystifying (through online guides and message boards, etc.), it became progressively easier for people to figure it out and complete it, brutal as it was. If you allow this to run its course for several years, you end up with a serious overpopulation of an alpha class.

A good alternative method for obtaining Jedi status would have to remain just as challenging to complete as hologrinding, while also being designed to keep the number of Jedi per server low from one year to the next, and additionally being designed in a way that demystification (i.e., read guides online so you know what to do) is very difficult or impossible.

I haven't come up with the above-mentioned perfect hologrinding alternative yet. All I can think of for keeping numbers down is a system where players may only use their Jedi for a couple of months, after which time they've been allowed to have their share of the rare fun, and their Jedi is retired. This would attempt to balance the number of retirements with the number of new Padawans to keep the growth rate low over long periods of time.

This would also prevent as many people from even trying to achieve Jedi status, since they know they can't keep it forever.

As for demystification, I have very few good ideas. I think the only way to change the online-guide-exploitability aspect would be to change the path to Jedi from a grind to something else, like... well, I know some people are going to slam me with the flame bat for this, but something like a contest where players would write short essays to the GMs about why they would be a good choice to play a Jedi (perhaps with some role-playing explanation), and for each two-month period, 20 people per server will be selected. After those two months, as above, those Jedi are retired, and the next set of essay winners get their turn.

Problem with that is, I can't imagine the GMs reading a bunch of contest essays every few months.

Any thoughts of your own to share on this issue? And please God, don't come in here defending hologrinding. I'm not attacking it, I'm not attacking Elder Jedi or ridiculing their achievements, and it's all a moot point anyway, since the old days have been gone for some time now.

the way to limit the jedi per server is simply to make it unappealing to the casual gamer. It would be the ultra hard mode.

1- Padawans are weak and can  be killed by any master combat profession

2- Knights can hold themselves really well against a 1-1 or 1-2 (high level knights can hold themselves against 5-10 if they know what they are doing)

3- Masters can hold themselves against a full party

P.S. i mean if the players know what he is doing, it wont be easy but it has the potential to do so if played right

4. have a sort of death timer the higher ranked you are the more time your jedi is locked after death. a master would be locked for 3 months a knight for 1 month  and a padawan for 1 week.

5. due to chronology, the emperor has ordered the execution of all jedi. therefore if a character gets within x meters of a jedi (including Faction NPCs) having either a jedi robe or a light saber equiped he gets flagged to the authorities,

(they would apear onthe BH terminals, and vader would send his high level troopers against him at random intervals for 24 hours of gameplay)

now the way to unlock the jedi, would be a random event. each character is different. some tasks would have to be done in order to unlock it ( in the form of visit specific place (different for all characters) talk to specific people, do specific quests, kill/defend a specific amount of specific  NPCs) and when you do, you must follow a long series of quests to either to make your character a jedi or to find a jedi ally (2nd character slot onthe server) all without getting a notice until you get the first quest. which you simply become force sensitive, in which case now you have to find the hidden master and do his quests to earn the title of padawan. and then quests to get knight and then master.

Originally posted by Squal'Zell

now the way to unlock the jedi, would be a random event. each character is different. some tasks would have to be done in order to unlock it ( in the form of visit specific place (different for all characters) talk to specific people, do specific quests, kill/defend a specific amount of specific  NPCs) and when you do, you must follow a long series of quests to either to make your character a jedi or to find a jedi ally (2nd character slot onthe server) all without getting a notice until you get the first quest. which you simply become force sensitive, in which case now you have to find the hidden master and do his quests to earn the title of padawan. and then quests to get knight and then master.

That's an interesting take on preventing demystification.

If I'm understanding you right, it would go roughly like this: There could be a (known only to the developers) pool of 30 specific areas to visit, 30 NPCs to speak to, 30 (small) quests, and 30 different kill/defend quotas, earmarked as being things players have to do to open up the force sensitive quest line.

At character creation, each character is assigned a completely random choice (from each batch of 30) of 10 areas to visit, 10 NPCs to speak to, 10 quests to do, and 10 specific quotas to fulfill. Only once those 40 conditions are fufilled would the force sensitive quest line open up, and there's no way for any player to know which of their many activities eventually fulfilled all of the conditions.

I like this because it encourages exploration, trying out anything and everything (even seemingly useless quests), and also has a healthy dose of luck involved. It rewards players who've been in the game a fairly long time and whose characters are widely traveled and experienced.

Well Jedi originally were a Random set of events that would unlock. I remember just playing the game how I wanted to and then one day I unlocked with aload of other people and everyone was on the forums trying to work out how you do it. Raph Koster said it's a system that just lets you play and then something triggers it, wanted it to always be a mystery and to allow you to play the game as you enjoyed it.

Problem is the whining forums wanted to know esactly how to unlock because people who want to be elite hate random. So they added Holocrons into the game so people had set goals of grinding up professions and then the last one which it didn't tell you. The problem is it forced you to play the game a certain way and you had to play professions you didn't find fun. The whole thing ruined the economy and turned the game into one big grind. I just remember everyone grinding to get Jedi and it ruined the gameplay.

I got my slot at the end of 2003 but I never ever got further than Padawan by the time the NGE came I was still a Padawan and I think they disabled the whole force rank system anyways. I dunno I just didn't enjoy the class once everyone had them and when the Bounty Hunter system was in I just started hunting Jedi. They kept making it easier and easier for Jedi though which made it less and less fun to play a Bounty Hunter. You just saw Jedi everywhere and it ruined the mystery of the class and by that point they might aswel be a starter profession cause everyone had one.

They shoulda kept Jedi like it was at the start and kept Permadeath though I agree with allowing them to have a House and that.

Just all the forums whiners complaining the game was too hard. I remember them complaining about TEF when you kill faction npcs and it was like I'm not gonna stand there and watch you kill them as I'm on their side so I should be able to attack you. The TEF only lasted like 10 or 15 mins anyways.

But no the whiners got their way and thats just one example of SOE listening to the dumb people on the forums.

Originally posted by John.A.Zoid

Well Jedi originally were a Random set of events that would unlock. I remember just playing the game how I wanted to and then one day I unlocked with aload of other people and everyone was on the forums trying to work out how you do it. Raph Koster said it's a system that just lets you play and then something triggers it, wanted it to always be a mystery and to allow you to play the game as you enjoyed it.

Were they? I must admit, I remember very few details about the actual game mechanics from before the NGE. The fine points are all a big blur, 'cause I haven't kept up with the game or the community (didn't read the official forums back in the day either), and I've played so many other MMOs in the meantime. I was also still in the military back then, which meant limited play time and long absences.

I have to agree completely with Ralph Koster's assessment of the original unlock system, those were my thoughts exactly about the issue. Just play the game, explore far and wide, try new things, enjoy the journey and become wise in the game, and chances are you'll eventually get the opportunity to become Force sensitive. Don't worry about it, just let it come as it comes.

Of course the problem with that is exactly as you say, leet-speaking 'tardhats who want to pwn nubz in PvP are inevitably going to whine up a storm about the mystery and randomness. I'm quite sure they would in fact have quit the game had they not been appeased, too.

If everyone who played SWG was mature, patient, cared about Star Wars lore, and wanted to preserve the immersiveness of the experience, that first way would have worked just fine. But it's an MMORPG we're talking about here.

The funny thing is the opinions on the forums didn't reflect what I saw in the game. Everyone I talked to in game loved it and just wanted more content and bug fixes. People in the game on the whole didn't care about the profession balance. They just wanted to play the game how they liked and my whole guild loved the challenge of how hard the game was.

However you go to the forums and it would seem like the game was the worst thing ever and you wonder why they were even playing. Just full of people complaining about things that only effected them, just wanted changes to make things easier for them. They wanted the easy road and didn't think about the rest of the game and how these little changes would actually have a big impact.

Something as little as JTLS allowing you to instant travel from planet to planet had a massive effect on the game and I know people who quit over it. It instantly kills the social aspect of waiting for the Star Ports where everyone met and chatted and dueled eachother. It also makes it so you have to be more careful with things like PVP because you can't instantly travel around. It made the worlds seem that much bigger aswel because you did have to wait to travel.

Just these little changes the whiners got that slowly ate away and ruined the game.

I remember a quote from Raph Koster and he said that they could have originally just added content, making sure each profession worked and cutting down the over the top buffs and armour stats. However the changes that have happened now have closed the doors on any hope of that and it's a different game now.

I find it weird how he knew what the game needed and other developers hopefully had the common sense to know this aswel. However a few people in charge who hadn't a clue had the power to ruin the game.

Originally posted by John.A.Zoid

The funny thing is the opinions on the forums didn't reflect what I saw in the game. Everyone I talked to in game loved it and just wanted more content and bug fixes. People in the game on the whole didn't care about the profession balance. They just wanted to play the game how they liked and my whole guild loved the challenge of how hard the game was.

However you go to the forums and it would seem like the game was the worst thing ever and you wonder why they were even playing. Just full of people complaining about things that only effected them, just wanted changes to make things easier for them. They wanted the easy road and didn't think about the rest of the game and how these little changes would actually have a big impact.

I remember this exactly. I absolutely loved the game and everything about it. Most everyone I played with loved it to. One day I ventured on to the official forums to see them covered with people bitching and whining about the game and how much it sucked. I was absolutely amazed.

I even took the stance of a "fanboi" by trying to defend the game against those idiots on the O-boards.

well, eventually the NGE came around, and I even pointed out "This is what you idiots get for bitching this whole time". Needless to say the NGE turned me from a defender of the game, to an endless critic. SOE had turned me into the very thing I hated by listening to those people.

Originally posted by DoktorTeufel

Originally posted by Squal'Zell

now the way to unlock the jedi, would be a random event. each character is different. some tasks would have to be done in order to unlock it ( in the form of visit specific place (different for all characters) talk to specific people, do specific quests, kill/defend a specific amount of specific  NPCs) and when you do, you must follow a long series of quests to either to make your character a jedi or to find a jedi ally (2nd character slot onthe server) all without getting a notice until you get the first quest. which you simply become force sensitive, in which case now you have to find the hidden master and do his quests to earn the title of padawan. and then quests to get knight and then master.

 

That's an interesting take on preventing demystification.

 

If I'm understanding you right, it would go roughly like this: There could be a (known only to the developers) pool of 30 specific areas to visit, 30 NPCs to speak to, 30 (small) quests, and 30 different kill/defend quotas, earmarked as being things players have to do to open up the force sensitive quest line.

 

At character creation, each character is assigned a completely random choice (from each batch of 30) of 10 areas to visit, 10 NPCs to speak to, 10 quests to do, and 10 specific quotas to fulfill. Only once those 40 conditions are fufilled would the force sensitive quest line open up, and there's no way for any player to know which of their many activities eventually fulfilled all of the conditions. exactly, but to make it a bit less hard core i would say warn when you have completed it, and it could be 150 of meatlumps and 400 rebels and visit the krayt dragon POI . but your friend could have kill 1 bantha; but he would have to go to every single POI and every single force sensitive spot in the galaxy far far away. its different for every one

 

I like this because it encourages exploration, trying out anything and everything (even seemingly useless quests), and also has a healthy dose of luck involved. It rewards players who've been in the game a fairly long time and whose characters are widely traveled and experienced.

isnt that the basics of being a jedi, a wise traveled and experienced person?

and you would only drop to the dark side around the middle of the knight tree. after filling the equivalent of 1/2 the skill xp required to get the novice master jedi. (i know it didnt work like that but it shoudl have, each line would get you another title like: novice master jedi, guardian, sentinel, consular, scholar and finally master) you would have a  choice where you where subjected to the dark side and you could choose wheather to keep going to the light side or fall to the dark side.

also the Force Ranking system was a brilliant idea, just very poorly implemented (at least for the 3 whole days it was implemented) it should have been controled by a GM, like puting an event. OR at least implement a game mechanic (im not a professional at game design but i imagine that what i am about to describe isnt really hard to implement in a game) that would allow once a month a jedi council to be formed. if you had jedi master title you could put your name in for a vote. and only those who put in their name for a vote (or it could be a rank jedi knight and above) would get to vote on who the countil would be. the grand master jedi would remain in office until the end of the month where he would have to put himself for vote again. Each Master in the council gets significantly increased stats for that month and all are PERMA-OVERT to all dark side force weilders.

The sith would work a bit differently. during that month period sith lords (equivalent to jedi masters) are PERMA OVERT to all light side jedis. the more you kill the more points you score. 1 week every month SITH LORDS become OVERT to ALL jedi and ALL sith. killing a sith with more points than you earns you alot more points. and you would leak points over time (to prevent people just going offline) beign killed by a sith removes ALL your points. (Like, your dead... unworthy of being sith) and then the top scorer gets the increased stats and then the next in lines get a smaller increase.

damn you people... just talking about this crap brought back a bunch of memories and really makes me want to play the original game.

WTB SWG original server!

Still dont know why they dont release a classic server or two, it would bring back people in DROVES.

could  always re-roll  back when jedi dies 3 times  no more jedi  and the bounty hunter

jedi hunts  brings me back when jedi,s where in the shadows  flash of youre lightsaber

meant you were  open meat  but  those days are gone now where  in the zombie wookie era 

I might of missed something here  but what book publish  where kashyekke blew up

and wookie zombies  started attacking again ????