Well, sorry guys, if you actually played properly like me(aka not staying 24/7 in Goldshire) you can't disagree with me that WOTLK is ridicously dumped down compared to TBC. I'm not talking from a PvE only perspective, but arena balance these days is screwed up. Let's take this scenario:
In BC,skilled rogues could beat skilled warriors via a single method, bleedkiting. Using your cooldowns properly, you'd have to do some initial damage then kite him with Garrote, Rupture and Crippling Poison. While it sounds easy, it was very hard to pull off and you needed excellent skills and awareness. You had to kite the warrior in the 6-7 yards range, otherwise you would be Intercepted and everything would be over.
In WOTLK, my rogue friend with T2 furious weapons can take me(a warrior with full furious and T1 furious weapon+shield in defensive stance) to 30%-35% health in a stunlock(in a single CS+KS). Trinketing any of those is a bad idea, since his reactions are fast enough to land a Blind of me before I get the chance to land the Rend on him.
While you might say "WoW isn't balanced around 1v1" this whole thing awards a lot more incompetence than it did before in arena, for example 3v3 as Rogue Mage Priest. Back then, this setup required perfect coordonation and awareness from each player, making even a single mistake fatal BUT if you had these, it was probably the most powerful setup ever. Now, it's a free ticket to T2 weapons/gladiator for barely-over-average players.
I won't even go to how resto druid's spec was dumped down, from how much it required back then to not be considered a bad druid, to succeding to 2,4k with playing defensive in tree form.
I can't say I have a grip vs Ghostcrawler but I still wonder why he couldn't further balance BC playstyle, because WoW back then achieved the closest thing to balance compared to any MMO, but now, several specs are far easier than what they've been, burst is amazingly powerful and melee is even worse than what it was(I prefer macestuns over today's warriors with stacked ArP).

ah wall of text, that I cannot read, but going by the thread title yes Chilton has moved to be the main guy on the new Blizzard MMO.

Originally posted by coffee

ah wall of text, that I cannot read, but going by the thread title yes Chilton has moved to be the main guy on the new Blizzard MMO.

Oh well, TL;DR version is "How shit WOTLK arena is compared to TBC and how several specs are dumped down in WOTLK".

I thought that Jeff Kaplan moved to the new project, not chilton.

Who cares about arena. 90% of people only do it because Blizzard pigeonholes them into doing it if they want the best PvP gear.

Originally posted by Comnitus

Who cares about arena. 90% of people only do it because Blizzard pigeonholes them into doing it if they want the best PvP gear.

Me and a lot more players, because arena(like it was implemented in WoW) was never done before, not to mention, S1 and S2 arena was so damn fun.

Originally posted by Thenarius

Originally posted by Comnitus

Who cares about arena. 90% of people only do it because Blizzard pigeonholes them into doing it if they want the best PvP gear.

Me and a lot more players, because arena(like it was implemented in WoW) was never done before, not to mention, S1 and S2 arena was so damn fun.

But you don't like it now, do you?

Originally posted by Comnitus

Who cares about arena. 90% of people only do it because Blizzard pigeonholes them into doing it if they want the best PvP gear.

theres also money tournaments and stuff not everyone does it just for the gear:P

Originally posted by Comnitus

Originally posted by Thenarius

Originally posted by Comnitus

Who cares about arena. 90% of people only do it because Blizzard pigeonholes them into doing it if they want the best PvP gear.

Me and a lot more players, because arena(like it was implemented in WoW) was never done before, not to mention, S1 and S2 arena was so damn fun.

But you don't like it now, do you?

I don't, not because it's the same over and over again like you're trying to make it out, but because classes are now horribly balanced.

Originally posted by Thenarius

Originally posted by Comnitus

Originally posted by Thenarius

Originally posted by Comnitus

Who cares about arena. 90% of people only do it because Blizzard pigeonholes them into doing it if they want the best PvP gear.

Me and a lot more players, because arena(like it was implemented in WoW) was never done before, not to mention, S1 and S2 arena was so damn fun.

But you don't like it now, do you?

I don't, not because it's the same over and over again like you're trying to make it out, but because classes are now horribly balanced.

Ah, so you're QQing because you're no longer OP... I get it now. And, what has your thread title got to do with what you wrote.

I think my next thread will be titled "Elephants have pink toenails" then I'll write a wall of text on how Elemental Shaman are the ginger haired stepchild of PvP.

Originally posted by Comnitus

Who cares about arena. 90% of people only do it because Blizzard pigeonholes them into doing it if they want the best PvP gear.

I care, I do arena with a friend. And it's awesome.

Originally posted by Thenarius

Originally posted by Comnitus

Originally posted by Thenarius

Originally posted by Comnitus

Who cares about arena. 90% of people only do it because Blizzard pigeonholes them into doing it if they want the best PvP gear.

Me and a lot more players, because arena(like it was implemented in WoW) was never done before, not to mention, S1 and S2 arena was so damn fun.

But you don't like it now, do you?

I don't, not because it's the same over and over again like you're trying to make it out, but because classes are now horribly balanced.

Now horribly balanced? Lol, since when have they not been horribly balanced? There is always an OP class (Blizzard even admits it sometimes. Like, "First we have to get the burst damage under control so that Ret paladins are not winning PvP encounters by blowing players up." Sounds OP to me).

It sure is repetitive, but that's a moot point since everything in WoW is repetitive. It's about what arena is, and many people prefer BGs or open world PvP. So naturally they get upset when Blizzard forces them to do arenas if they want the best PvP gear.

Now obviously 90% is a slight exaggeration. Some people don't like it at first but end up changing their minds. Not anyone I know, though. If you like it that's great, but I don't see what it has to do with Chilton being there or not. You're saying he had the classes more balanced because he worked on BC?

Originally posted by Comnitus

Originally posted by Thenarius

Originally posted by Comnitus

Originally posted by Thenarius

Originally posted by Comnitus

Who cares about arena. 90% of people only do it because Blizzard pigeonholes them into doing it if they want the best PvP gear.

Me and a lot more players, because arena(like it was implemented in WoW) was never done before, not to mention, S1 and S2 arena was so damn fun.

But you don't like it now, do you?

I don't, not because it's the same over and over again like you're trying to make it out, but because classes are now horribly balanced.

Now horribly balanced? Lol, since when have they not been horribly balanced? There is always an OP class (Blizzard even admits it sometimes. Like, "First we have to get the burst damage under control so that Ret paladins are not winning PvP encounters by blowing players up." Sounds OP to me).

It sure is repetitive, but that's a moot point since everything in WoW is repetitive. It's about what arena is, and many people prefer BGs or open world PvP. So naturally they get upset when Blizzard forces them to do arenas if they want the best PvP gear.

Now obviously 90% is a slight exaggeration. Some people don't like it at first but end up changing their minds. Not anyone I know, though. If you like it that's great, but I don't see what it has to do with Chilton being there or not. You're saying he had the classes more balanced because he worked on BC?

 

Bingo, that's what I'm saying. I could give examples of  "In BC <x> and in WOTLK <y>" but the point is that arena takes a lot less skill now than it did back then(yes, as much as a skillspamming autoattack MMO can take). And classes were far better balanced in BC than they are now.
Oh and to the dude who said I'm no longer OP, but I am, warriors are quite overpowered in all brackets now, tyvm. I'm complaining because they dumped down several specs and made burst way too efficient since GC came.

1. They keep the classes imbalanced on purpose. it keeps players subscribed longer if they have to roll a new FoTM class every few patches. Others will hold on because their main class is due to be the next FoTM soon.

2. Screw the arena. Loot treadmills are bad enough in PvE, but in PVP they really shut down any legitimate reason to play.

Originally posted by Palebane

1. They keep the classes imbalanced on purpose. it keeps players subscribed longer if they have to roll a new FoTM class every few patches. Others will hold on because their main class is due to be the next FoTM soon.

2. Screw the arena. Loot treadmills are bad enough in PvE, but in PVP they really shut down any legitimate reason to play.

Right...  And no one ever gets upset at their class being underpowered or nerfed and quit the game.

Making an unbalanced class system on purpose of retaining pvp players is the winning formula?  Lets go ask Mythic how that worked for them in warhammer.  I'm sure there are a few subscribers left to answer that question.

Personally I think they should do away with 2 vs 2 arenas and make a more flexable 5 vs 5 system.  The game just isn't designed to have 30 specs be balanced in such a small scale pvp setting. 

Damn, the title got my hopes up then someone scared me saying he had moved on to the new project. But after doing some research, unless i missed something,  seems Chilton is still busy screwing up WoW

Originally posted by coffee

ah wall of text, that I cannot read, but going by the thread title yes Chilton has moved to be the main guy on the new Blizzard MMO.

If you're going to be a mindless fanboi get your facts straight. Tom "Kalgan" Chilton is still working on WoW. Jeffrey "Tigole" Kaplan moved to the new mmo.

Originally posted by Comnitus

Who cares about arena. 90% of people only do it because Blizzard pigeonholes them into doing it if they want the best PvP gear.

Amen to that

 Zorn will always give me a smile :)

Most of development is moving to their other titles, because it doesnt take much to keep people who have been playing WoW for years playing...time invested & endless vigor to the mmo they love will always keep them hitched.  "Throw a dog a bone" is the new patch philosophy & its a very good business decision.

As an aside, server full messages are due to population and have nothing to do with quality & fun - they have to do with accessability.  Now everyone & their mom (sometimes literally) can run instances and level now at a pace that puts the old days to a snail crawl...so it would be expected that the servers get overloaded.  Whether or not the new dungeons & raids are 'fun' is all personal preference.  I'd comment on PvP, but I was a carebear MT - that only flag carried to giggle at rogues on that sparce occasion...

And as for raiding: what a joke (really hard modes & achievements are quality? to eachs own, lawl), unfortunately, as it used to be quite fun (for more than a month) :/

In the end there will always be the current players vs. those who quit, but I hope that all of WoW's dev move more quickly to the other projects - as D3, the new MMO, and SC2 are far more exciting than 6 month one-shot patches will ever be.

Oh,  yeah. Forgot to say if Chilton had stopped working on WoW the officials forums would erupt in a massive celebration like it was new years ever 2999.

Hell, I would even think about re-subbing just to join in the celebrations.

Originally posted by Yauchy

 Zorn will always give me a smile :)

Most of development is moving to their other titles, because it doesnt take much to keep people who have been playing WoW for years playing...time invested & endless vigor to the mmo they love will always keep them hitched.  "Throw a dog a bone" is the new patch philosophy & its a very good business decision.

As an aside, server full messages are due to population and have nothing to do with quality & fun - they have to do with accessability.  Now everyone & their mom (sometimes literally) can run instances and level now at a pace that puts the old days to a snail crawl...so it would be expected that the servers get overloaded.  Whether or not the new dungeons & raids are 'fun' is all personal preference.  I'd comment on PvP, but I was a carebear MT - that only flag carried to giggle at rogues on that sparce occasion...

And as for raiding: what a joke (really hard modes & achievements are quality? to eachs own, lawl), unfortunately, as it used to be quite fun (for more than a month) :/

In the end there will always be the current players vs. those who quit, but I hope that all of WoW's dev move more quickly to the other projects - as D3, the new MMO, and SC2 are far more exciting than 6 month one-shot patches will ever be.

Problem is with transfers people leave the dozens of low population realms and join the already heavily populated ones. If Blizzard turn off transfers for realms that are already overflowing, like they used to, then people will quit and Blizzard lose out twice.

Does Mal'Ganis need anymore horde? But find a realm in a battleground without mega massive realms like Blackrock, Tichondrius or Mal'Ganis and you'll have no troubles with instances

Originally posted by Zorndorf

That's 5 times more than you can find in those other fantasy mmorpg's.... that don't have arena's....

 

 

 

Guild wars has Arenas and they do it much better too.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by Garfunkel

Originally posted by Comnitus

Who cares about arena. 90% of people only do it because Blizzard pigeonholes them into doing it if they want the best PvP gear.

 

Amen to that

 

And ... 10% do it  for titles, prestige and simple fun and nice stressy gameplay.

That would make ... more than 1.000.000 people playing Arenas and having fun.

That's 5 times more than you can find in those other fantasy mmorpg's.... that don't have arena's....

Choices of play remember ...
 

Amen to that

 

More than 10% of players saw at least Kalecgos in Sunwell Plateau. Thats 1,100,000 million players worldwide. So you're saying Blizzard should continue to make instances like SWP, Zorndorf. I'm with you 100% on that. I'm glad you've finally said something intelligent.

But that 10% used to be over 50% in seasons 1-2.

Arena isnt the problem. Chilton dreaming of e-sport glory and ramming arena down everyone's throat was the problem. Instead of introducing a ranked battlegrounds system for WSG, AB and EotS with equal rewards to Arena, Blizzard neglected battlegrounds. Now you have to spend hours grinding away for sub-standard PvP gear with afk'ers and honor farming kids.

And instead of fixing battlegrounds, what does Blizzard do? Introduce more battlegrounds!

While you keep banging on about WoW subscriber numbers you overlook the fact that subscriptions in the last 18 months have barely increased in EU/NA. I believe if Blizzard had made some wiser decisions when it came to PvP there would be 5.5-6 million subs in EU/NA instead of the current 4.5.

Most people I speak to, even those who love WoW, agree that Blizzard has failed in regards to PvP in WoW. They neglected bg's for so long and so much that people got so dumb that they had to introduce a 20 min timer for WSG because the idiots dont know hot to cap a flag and can only run around in mindless zergs hk farming. Except for you of course, Zorndorf. You believe WoW is the most perfect thing in the universe and have a shrine to Blizzard in your house.

For whatever flaws the PvP in warcraft has, it does pvp better than almost any mmo on the market.  From responsiveness, variety and yes even balance it outdoes just about any game. 

I'm not a big fan of arenas, but the other areas are plenty of fun.  I'm sure there are plenty of people who love the arenas and not so much battlegrounds and wintergrasp.  Choices for different play styles.

If wows pvp was a failure there wouldn't be more pvp servers than they are pve.  If the PvP was so bad then the games population would have been ravaged by the recent pvp games that released.   So on and so on.

People may be bored of wows pvp after all the years, but it is a very good system.  Perfect no, but much better than what the rest of the market is offering.