Originally posted by svann

EQ1 had a decent solution to the over-use of jumping.  Make it use up a portion of your endurance to jump.  That way it can be used not abused.

If there were some sort of 'Endurance' metric in FFXIV that affected how your character functioned in a meaningful way (i.e. Endurance is expended in the use of skills), that might be a way to go, but that's adding a layer of complexity that the designers and players might find undesirable.

jumping is not very import seeing as most rpg games i have played and enjoyed hove not allowed jumping. the only time i have seen people make use out of the ability to jump on other mmorpgs is to cheat on terrain features. So i think that jumping should not be implemented on this game.

Originally posted by z1Moogle

jumping is not very import seeing as most rpg games i have played and enjoyed hove not allowed jumping. the only time i have seen people make use out of the ability to jump on other mmorpgs is to cheat on terrain features. So i think that jumping should not be implemented on this game.

I've seen actual productive uses of jumping in MMOs, but the terrain has to be designed for it. When you have multi-leveled terrain, designers can create instances where you need to jump in order to progress, i.e. jumping over a broken section in a ledge you're walking along. This adds an element of environmental risk, and the ability to fall multiplies the risk of any kind of combat in hazardous areas; i would think most would consider this a good thing. Another example of this would be obtaining high ground on a wall or something and jumping off of it in order to cut off a fleeing enemy (this is a more PVP-oriented example). I wouldn't define either of these as 'cheating terrain features' as long as the terrain is designed for it. 

     Jumping has it's slight advantages, as a lot of people already said I'm sure, it seems to me that the only real use you would get out of it would be in PvP oriented MMO's. Final Fantasy is cleary PvE based and requires no real need for jumping, except for those random rocks, walls, or bumps in a terrian that annoy us all. Could help slighty I'm sure.

Originally posted by whtsnxt

     Jumping has it's slight advantages, as a lot of people already said I'm sure, it seems to me that the only real use you would get out of it would be in PvP oriented MMO's. Final Fantasy is cleary PvE based and requires no real need for jumping, except for those random rocks, walls, or bumps in a terrian that annoy us all. Could help slighty I'm sure.

Given how little we solid information we have on FFXIV, this is just an assumption (though a well grounded one, granted), and i would disagree that jumping has no place in a PVE-based game. As i mentioned above, if you design the terrain itself as part of the challenge of an area, then you create opportunities for interesting zone/level design. For instance, in FFXII, how many times would it have been nice to be able to just jump over those mines that your Libra ability revealed, and let the enemies chasing you trip them instead? 

Originally posted by Alhazred23

Originally posted by svann

EQ1 had a decent solution to the over-use of jumping.  Make it use up a portion of your endurance to jump.  That way it can be used not abused.

If there were some sort of 'Endurance' metric in FFXIV that affected how your character functioned in a meaningful way (i.e. Endurance is expended in the use of skills), that might be a way to go, but that's adding a layer of complexity that the designers and players might find undesirable.

I dont think it has to have any other use, just as long as on your 5th jump you are out of endurance and cant jump anymore till you cool it a bit.

Originally posted by svann

Originally posted by Alhazred23

Originally posted by svann

EQ1 had a decent solution to the over-use of jumping.  Make it use up a portion of your endurance to jump.  That way it can be used not abused.

If there were some sort of 'Endurance' metric in FFXIV that affected how your character functioned in a meaningful way (i.e. Endurance is expended in the use of skills), that might be a way to go, but that's adding a layer of complexity that the designers and players might find undesirable.

I dont think it has to have any other use, just as long as on your 5th jump you are out of endurance and cant jump anymore till you cool it a bit.

I really doubt any game design team would institute a purely punitive mechanic for a behavior that is just annoying, but not actually detrimental. It would have to be tied to a functional mechanic to even bear consideration. 

IMHO, if there is a use for it in game like old "Asherons Call" or "DDO"that had jump puzzles and things like that I don't have an issue with it. (although it was wayyy over the top)

In games like WoW and WAR and 99% of other games there is no real point to having it, it's misused and it's just annoying.

Originally posted by Alhazred23

Originally posted by svann

Originally posted by Alhazred23

Originally posted by svann

EQ1 had a decent solution to the over-use of jumping.  Make it use up a portion of your endurance to jump.  That way it can be used not abused.

If there were some sort of 'Endurance' metric in FFXIV that affected how your character functioned in a meaningful way (i.e. Endurance is expended in the use of skills), that might be a way to go, but that's adding a layer of complexity that the designers and players might find undesirable.

I dont think it has to have any other use, just as long as on your 5th jump you are out of endurance and cant jump anymore till you cool it a bit.

I really doubt any game design team would institute a purely punitive mechanic for a behavior that is just annoying, but not actually detrimental. It would have to be tied to a functional mechanic to even bear consideration. 

Its not punitive though, just restricitive.  And far less restrictive than removing jumping altogether.  I cant see that it is reasonable to say "we shouldnt have jumping in game because it is annoying" and at the same time say "restricting it just becuase it is annoying is going too far".

Originally posted by svann

 

I dont think it has to have any other use, just as long as on your 5th jump you are out of endurance and cant jump anymore till you cool it a bit.

"You must wait longer to perform that action." After jumping  5  times in 1 minute? Or maybe after every jump for 3-5 seconds?

I'd still play the game without jumping, but i would prefer to have it. But ill also agree with the general idea here, that its useless, but thats not the point. The point is, if i want to jump, i can. Theres some odd, unjust primitive feeling i auto-associate with being glued to the floor in game. And manys the time my all powerful level 75 was stopped in his tracks by the horror of a two inch high mound.

I say do away with the irrational fear of changes in terrain that led my character on a massive de-tour around La Theine Plateau.

Having said that, when i did play WoW, the night elfs spamming spacebar for the odd sommersault drove me mad. But so does spamming anything, spamming a nod emote would drive me just as crazy.

Like anything... not having it, makes you want it.

I hate to say it, but I hate not being able to get around something that only comes up to my toons thighs. lol

I should be able to jump over it, or climb over, or duck under, swim through it etc etc. It would make navigating the world more realistic.

/shrug its not a deal-breaker for me. But it would be a nice change.

what no jumping?! how am I going to go "pew pew" with my bow in the air then? and "hack hack" with my broadsword and "wack wack" with my mage staff?!

I think its bullshajt if it cant even do what a fat plumber can do.

What's wrong with jumping in MMOs?
If you can't jump and there is a small fence or whatever in the way you have to go around it? that's just lame..
I don't play games where you can't jump on anything. And what if players just jump around for nothing? If that annoys you, lolz to you then. ^^

 Jumping adds a level of design difficulty they dont want to care about, including exploits of people getting where they shouldnt be able to get to (i.e. early WoW).  Although simple, depends on the game if its needed or not...in FFXI it wasnt and I agree with the ever abunt amount of jump spammers ruining the feature anyway (I could just imagine Jueno AH filled with wannabe bunnies).

The Z Axis is a pain in the arse, and whether or not they have jumping - the value it adds is purely astectic for the picky.  And for those who refuse to play a game without jumping for immersion - please, you are just looking for an excuse to QQ or hate, nothing more nothing less, so find a legtimate gameplay issue & focus your sad efforts on that :P

Originally posted by Yauchy

 Jumping adds a level of design difficulty they dont want to care about, including exploits of people getting where they shouldnt be able to get to (i.e. early WoW).  Although simple, depends on the game if its needed or not...in FFXI it wasnt and I agree with the ever abunt amount of jump spammers ruining the feature anyway (I could just imagine Jueno AH filled with wannabe bunnies).

The Z Axis is a pain in the arse, and whether or not they have jumping - the value it adds is purely astectic for the picky.  And for those who refuse to play a game without jumping for immersion - please, you are just looking for an excuse to QQ or hate, nothing more nothing less, so find a legtimate gameplay issue & focus your sad efforts on that :P

 

Remember that even in games without jumping, a Z-Axis is present. It just happens that said axis is usually inaccessable by jumping, but easily accessable by bugs/exploits/hacking. Take a look at FFXI, for instance. You'll never see anyone jump (jumping down something is more of a simple fall) but people can and have hacked either up to the sky or under the ground itself, because the Z-axis is used to create the look and feel of elevation.

Also, with the current competition out there, SE would be commiting finiacial suicide to not add jumping and swimming into their game...one could go as far as to say it would also be the same to not add flying, though I'd still play without flying. The fact is SE knows that  this is the perfect oppurtunity to update the machanics of their game, and if they did not they'd be missing out on many of the decent people who decided to drop their previous title for other games.

In short, adding jumping may not seem like much of a thing to argue over, and some people may feel it to be unwarranted; however, adding in such a simple feature as jumping and swimming would likely increase the game's playerbase, and thus revenue, by a substantial amount.

Originally posted by Cavall

Originally posted by Yauchy

 Jumping adds a level of design difficulty they dont want to care about, including exploits of people getting where they shouldnt be able to get to (i.e. early WoW).  Although simple, depends on the game if its needed or not...in FFXI it wasnt and I agree with the ever abunt amount of jump spammers ruining the feature anyway (I could just imagine Jueno AH filled with wannabe bunnies).

The Z Axis is a pain in the arse, and whether or not they have jumping - the value it adds is purely astectic for the picky.  And for those who refuse to play a game without jumping for immersion - please, you are just looking for an excuse to QQ or hate, nothing more nothing less, so find a legtimate gameplay issue & focus your sad efforts on that :P

 

 

Remember that even in games without jumping, a Z-Axis is present. It just happens that said axis is usually inaccessable by jumping, but easily accessable by bugs/exploits/hacking. Take a look at FFXI, for instance. You'll never see anyone jump (jumping down something is more of a simple fall) but people can and have hacked either up to the sky or under the ground itself, because the Z-axis is used to create the look and feel of elevation.

Also, with the current competition out there, SE would be commiting finiacial suicide to not add jumping and swimming into their game...one could go as far as to say it would also be the same to not add flying, though I'd still play without flying. The fact is SE knows that  this is the perfect oppurtunity to update the machanics of their game, and if they did not they'd be missing out on many of the decent people who decided to drop their previous title for other games.

In short, adding jumping may not seem like much of a thing to argue over, and some people may feel it to be unwarranted; however, adding in such a simple feature as jumping and swimming would likely increase the game's playerbase, and thus revenue, by a substantial amount.

Moot point.  Some think it will add a great deal, others (like myself) very little.

However, assuming its "financial suicide"...with FFXIII and various other titles in the company, I think it might be a tad strong a thought :P  It will lose players if you can't jump or swim, but compared to the amount of people yearning to play the game  (just read comments when there are new game update posts) - it will be a drop in the bucket, not a substantial amount...

Companies (contrary to public thought) do ask these questions internally, weigh the pros & cons...and especially when it comes to revenue, they will have it if its necessary or well worth it - and as we saw with the relative success of FFXI still, it doesnt matter much either way.

If F2P mmo's can do it why not FFXIV sorry but all excuses here are "GET OUT OF WORK FREE" cards.

How the hell did a thread like this reach 4 pages? Are we arguing about the validity of jumping in MMOs now? Let's smoke a pipe and drink tea while we're at it while reclining near a toasty fire.

Well, might as well throw my 2 cents in. Jumping in order to navigate obstacles is necessary, but jumping because you think you're a bunny - or in PvP, especially - is annyoing and unrealistic. Enter: Mantle system from Call of Duty: World at War. You go up to an object, you press space, you effectively "jump" over that object. Well, you really swing your legs over it. But it's much more realistic.

Originally posted by svann 

Its not punitive though, just restricitive.  And far less restrictive than removing jumping altogether.  I cant see that it is reasonable to say "we shouldnt have jumping in game because it is annoying" and at the same time say "restricting it just becuase it is annoying is going too far".

Well, it's a section of the player base that is saying we shouldn't have jumping because it is annoying, and another section that is saying we shouldn't have it because it is useless. There is also a section of the player base that would say that jumping is not annoying, or at least not annoying enough to restrict; if you care at all about the issue, then you're probably posting in this thread, so this isn't exactly an unbiased audience. I'm just saying that, from the design team's point of view, restricting it due to the preferences of only one section of the community might seem... poorly justified, unless they tied the restriction into something else. Still, as you say, if it's not too restrictive/punitive, they might be able to get away with it without much backlash.

A long delay after each jump might limit the gameplay use of the ability, though, if they were to design zone maps where jumping gave an advantage of some sort. If they wanted to restrict players from trying to exploit the terrain design to get places they should not, however, i would suggest that, when a player tries to jump onto/over an object and fails to clear it, they should be knocked down for a couple seconds, for basically jumping face first into a wall. That would limit the folks repeatedly trying to jump places that they shouldn't. 

Originally posted by Comnitus

How the hell did a thread like this reach 4 pages? Are we arguing about the validity of jumping in MMOs now? Let's smoke a pipe and drink tea while we're at it while reclining near a toasty fire.

Well, might as well throw my 2 cents in. Jumping in order to navigate obstacles is necessary, but jumping because you think you're a bunny - or in PvP, especially - is annyoing and unrealistic. Enter: Mantle system from Call of Duty: World at War. You go up to an object, you press space, you effectively "jump" over that object. Well, you really swing your legs over it. But it's much more realistic.

/shrug

This is a forum - discussion is theoretically what they're for. What we say here will most likely have no effect at all on what the design team actually does, this game is far, far from release and we have almost no information about it, so you could say that any FFXIV thread is basically pointless, from that perspective.

Regarding a system where certain obstacles are scalable by design, i've already said that's probably a reasonable idea, but it would entail an extra degree of attention to the environment that, given past experience, this design team may not want to pay. It comes down to what sort of experience they're trying to give us; they've already stated that combat in FFXIV will be more 'action' oriented, but what exactly does that mean? If it means introducing more action RPG elements, such terrain/motion/position-based benefits in combat, then jumping may indeed be in the future for this game, regardless of what we all want. 

Originally posted by Cavall

Originally posted by svann

 

I dont think it has to have any other use, just as long as on your 5th jump you are out of endurance and cant jump anymore till you cool it a bit.

 

"You must wait longer to perform that action." After jumping  5  times in 1 minute? Or maybe after every jump for 3-5 seconds?

Exactly.  Long enough for the ATD kiddies to give up spamming it, but short enough to be realistic.  Id guess that 4 seconds would be about right.

Originally posted by Cavall

Also, with the current competition out there, SE would be commiting finiacial suicide to not add jumping and swimming into their game...one could go as far as to say it would also be the same to not add flying, though I'd still play without flying. The fact is SE knows that  this is the perfect oppurtunity to update the machanics of their game, and if they did not they'd be missing out on many of the decent people who decided to drop their previous title for other games.

 

I think "with the current competition out there" as long as SE turns out another solid FF online game they don't have to worry much about alienating the market segment that won't play a game just because they can't jump around like a clown.

Originally posted by X-Porter

Originally posted by Cavall

Also, with the current competition out there, SE would be commiting finiacial suicide to not add jumping and swimming into their game...one could go as far as to say it would also be the same to not add flying, though I'd still play without flying. The fact is SE knows that  this is the perfect oppurtunity to update the machanics of their game, and if they did not they'd be missing out on many of the decent people who decided to drop their previous title for other games.

 

 

I think "with the current competition out there" as long as SE turns out another solid FF online game they don't have to worry much about alienating the market segment that won't play a game just because they can't jump around like a clown.

Also, it would be good to keep in mind that North America and Europe are not the market that they are primarily concerned with. If we wanted to get a real idea of how likely it is that features such as jumping or swiming will be introduced in FFXIV, it would be instructive to know what the Japanese players think of it. Also, to refute the assertion that you 'need' things like this to 'succeed' in the current market, i would point out that Aion does not allow swimming at all, but it is definitely succeeding in its primary market (Korea). 

Exactly, Al. By "Current Competition"  I really meant Aion, Champions Online, KOTOR, and so on. The games that will be released around the same time as FFXIV are what we should be looking at here as "current competition," not the current 5+ year old games on the market. The game should reflect next-gen graphics and gameplay, NOT gameplay from 5-10 years ago. This isn't  the early days of MMO development, ya know?

Oh, and almost forgot, but winged people would have serious issues with swimming, unless they were to merely float on the surface and sometimes stick their heads down like ducks or geese. So in terms of realism, Aion actually makes sense for the flyers <.< Pretty sure they didn't intend for it to, but it ended up doing so ^^