Right now 99% of mmo are absolute garbage (Not going to argue this point ).  There is WoW  then everything else is an absolute waste of time, and wow itself is not a good game compared to games from any real game genra.  WoW (or any mmo) can't hold a candle to games like Fallout 3, prototype, infamous, Orange Box, fable II, mass effect, etc. 

The solution is simply make better games, and it will happen.  over the next 5 years we will  see  mmos that keeps updated with latest game engines, keep up with graphic "generation's" , updates it lore monthly, has live events multiple times a week, and most importantly removes level/gear progression in favor of achievements/ titles/tabards/ and style based progression (like xbox did and many others have ripped off).  A truelly great game doesn't need gear/level progression to keep players hooked and game like wow that do are not good games. 

Originally posted by Carcer

Right now 99% of mmo are absolute garbage (Not going to argue this point ).  There is WoW  then everything else is an absolute waste of time, and wow itself is not a good game compared to games from any real game genra.  WoW (or any mmo) can't hold a candle to games like Fallout 3, prototype, infamous, Orange Box, fable II, mass effect, etc. 

My solution is simply make better games.  I want to see a mmo that keeps update with latest game engines, graphics "generation" , updates it lore monthly, has live events multiple times a week, and most importantly removes level/gear progression in favor of achievements/ titles/tabards/ and style based progression (like xbox did and many others have ripped off).  A truelly great game doesn't need gear/level progression to keep players hooked and game like wow that do are not good games. 

Wow is better then the games you listed.

In what way?  There graphics are better, there immersion values are greater,  There game progression is smoother and less repetative, and there objectives(aka quests) are clearer and better developed and take less time to do.  WoW is simply inferior from any investment standpoint. 

Originally posted by Carcer

In what way?  There graphics are better, there immersion values are greater,  There game progression is smoother and less repetative, and there objectives(aka quests) are clearer and better developed and take less time to do.  WoW is simply inferior from any investment standpoint. 

WoW offers more playtime which equals better value.

Got a feeling you may just be slightly underplaying the difficulty it is to make an MMO compared to an Single player experience ..you missed it somewhere in the sweeping generalisations you made ...but to go on and make my own id say comparing a true MMO to a 1 player game is like comparing writing a book to reading one..

However the way many developers appear to be going is to create a 1 player game that..quite a lot of people play at the same time..rather than a fully built world you make your own adventures in..in the end you might be right .

Originally posted by Cyborg99

Originally posted by Carcer

In what way?  There graphics are better, there immersion values are greater,  There game progression is smoother and less repetative, and there objectives(aka quests) are clearer and better developed and take less time to do.  WoW is simply inferior from any investment standpoint. 

 

WoW offers more playtime which equals better value.

You are provably wrong, taking more time to do something does not increase somethings value.  The value of the quality of a game is factered by how fun the game is over the time played.   For example Oblivion has over 150 hours of pure lore, questing, fighting, and unique scripted events.   Once you factor out in-game travel, waiting on others, repeating content and grinding how much quality game play time does wow really offer?

Originally posted by Whipp555

Got a feeling you may just be slightly underplaying the difficulty it is to make an MMO compared to an Single player experience ..you missed it somewhere in the sweeping generalisations you made ...but to go on and make my own id say comparing a true MMO to a 1 player game is like comparing writing a book to reading one..

However the way many developers appear to be going is to create a 1 player game that..quite a lot of people play at the same time..rather than a fully built world you make your own adventures in..in the end you might be right .

I wave the bullshit flag on this.  It is not that it is harder it is that they see it as left profitable.  The biggest MMO company in the world was so small it was bought by the people who made barbies horse adventure.  You are underestimating the dificulty of keeping a single and multiplayer expierence.  It takes more money, longer development and tons more polish.  Plus the high quality of game designers payed to develop single player games verse the comunty collage/ online degree game designers mmo designers employ is huge. Infact, most game players are on par or better than mmo game designers  and push the product out faster as CoH acdently proved when they lit there fans make content. 

Its all about opinions on which games are better.  I really didn't like WoW, I felt like I was playing a crappy offline RPG while chatting with some friends in a chatroom. Nobody wanted to group up for quests cuz you really didn't need to and when I did group up for dungeons we ran through them lightning fast.  Got bored of that shit at level 50.

The things that MMO's need to do to keep my attention is have these:

1) More grouping in general, I played FFXI for 3 years, best MMO ever made IMO.

2)  Quests that are longer and interesting, none of this kill 10 wolves bs anymore.

3) Don't make all the good gameplay at End Game.  A game should grab you the instant you start playing and be fun from the start.  Its fun going adventuring and not knowing whats going to happen next compared to rushing through content to get to max level.

4) Have multiple ways of progressing your character. Multiple ways of gaining EXP.

5) Have multiple ways to get the best gear in the game. Not everyone can sit and do the same damn raid 50 billion times to get that rare drop. Its not that I don't have the time to do it, I just can't stand running through the same instance over and over and over and over again.  

6) No items should be soulbound.  You should be able to sell any item and get some decent money from it. Yes there will be people that do RMT but they are gay so oh well. But what if I got money a legit way and wanted to just buy it instead of crafting or doing a raid for some sweet armor.

Someday soon hopefully there will be a unique game out there that will hold my attention as along as FFXI again. If not I might as well just give up on MMO's then. They all seem to be geared to the soloers and people that can stand running the same dungeons to get gear, these games just don't interest me in the least.  

I mean come on there has to be some gamers out there that are like me and want the same thing as me. Game companies just need to stop trying to compete with WoW and make something new.  Just like in Field of Dreams " If you build it they will come."  I would be one of those people coming if they would just build the damn thing.

Your darn skippy gear is what makes MMO's click and keeps players coming back.It is the items in these games that are rewards or things players earn over time.Without these item,what does a game have to offer?Explore? Puzzle solving?that is all fine,but i would expect all of that to be in a good game.

What is still left to explore is how developers can come up with ideas to expand gear,more ways to create new items.I think somewhere down the road some developer is going to come up  with a half ass design for limitless items.The ability for a game engine to CREATE based on the users input,this is one VERY tough cookie to crack,but there will be a developer that pulls it off to some extent,then all games after that for the next 10 years will try to improve on it.

Graphics will always try to inch forward,but so far we have seen graphics as stagnant,because players are asking for more "massive" in their game.PC's cannot handle great graphics and massive,so we have a long wait still before we get both into our games.

People say they are tired of the Fantasy genre,well as i see it ,it is still a genre that is far from being fully tapped,there is tons more that can be done,we just need some developers that are creative,Blizzard is by no means one of these developers.So far it has been SOE and Square Enix the two leading edge MMO developers that are creative,everyone else is just copying ideas from those two developers.

As far as the finacial side of gaming goes,everyone is copying Korean marketing,it seems not many people can think for themselves or are afraid to for fear of making mistakes.

Originally posted by Wizardry

Your darn skippy gear is what makes MMO's click and keeps players coming back.It is the items in these games that are rewards or things players earn over time.Without these item,what does a game have to offer?Explore? Puzzle solving?that is all fine,but i would expect all of that to be in a good game.

What is still left to explore is how developers can come up with ideas to expand gear,more ways to create new items.I think somewhere down the road some developer is going to come up  with a half ass design for limitless items.The ability for a game engine to CREATE based on the users input,this is one VERY tough cookie to crack,but there will be a developer that pulls it off to some extent,then all games after that for the next 10 years will try to improve on it.

Graphics will always try to inch forward,but so far we have seen graphics as stagnant,because players are asking for more "massive" in their game.PC's cannot handle great graphics and massive,so we have a long wait still before we get both into our games.

People say they are tired of the Fantasy genre,well as i see it ,it is still a genre that is far from being fully tapped,there is tons more that can be done,we just need some developers that are creative,Blizzard is by no means one of these developers.So far it has been SOE and Square Enix the two leading edge MMO developers that are creative,everyone else is just copying ideas from those two developers.

As far as the finacial side of gaming goes,everyone is copying Korean marketing,it seems not many people can think for themselves or are afraid to for fear of making mistakes.

Puzzle solving?
WHERE?!?!?!

Star Trek Online is the only puzzle solvering MMORPG I know of. Most only have the complexity of "Find some npc who looks like everyone else, but has a different name." for puzzles! LoL

MMO won't improve beyond what they are now.

The MMO design is inherently flawed, especially the P2P model, since you are trying to hook players into the game. If a player enjoys the game or doesn't isn't that important as long as you keep retention.

Once retention > gameplay ---------> flawed genre. Eventually MMO will die out.

I'm afraid the era of the "great" mmorpgs is just over. Danger, open worlds, adventure, friendships made to last for years, immersion etc.. it's not gonna happen anymore. The companies who could pull it off aren't interested anymore, but aim for other goals.

Beside one or another failing attempt by an independent company with too little budged to hold on to their own product (see DF, TCOS and soon to come MO), i think all we can expect is F2P/itemshop crap or easymode mmos for the most causal among the casuals.

The face of mmorpg-gaming has changed a while ago when the commercial aspect took over and the pubescent ADD-kids entered the genre screaming, taking over the market with their pocketmoney.

I doubt there'll ever be a home for veterans again.

Originally posted by ArchAngel102

 Puzzle solving?
WHERE?!?!?!

Star Trek Online is the only puzzle solvering MMORPG I know of. Most only have the complexity of "Find some npc who looks like everyone else, but has a different name." for puzzles! LoL

DDO has puzzle solving.  But yeah there needs to be more puzzle solving in MMO's. More searching for secret passages and disarming traps and stuff like DDO had.  It was a decen't game if only it were more of an open world it could have been my new favorite game. Oh and another thing that killed the game is everyone wanted to do the same dungeons over and over again.

I say once you complete a dungeon  you can't go back and do it again.  Yeah that would mean the developers would have to make more but it would be so much more fun that way.

Originally posted by cukimunga

Originally posted by ArchAngel102

 Puzzle solving?
WHERE?!?!?!

Star Trek Online is the only puzzle solvering MMORPG I know of. Most only have the complexity of "Find some npc who looks like everyone else, but has a different name." for puzzles! LoL

 

DDO has puzzle solving.  But yeah there needs to be more puzzle solving in MMO's. More searching for secret passages and disarming traps and stuff like DDO had.  It was a decen't game if only it were more of an open world it could have been my new favorite game. Oh and another thing that killed the game is everyone wanted to do the same dungeons over and over again.

 

I say once you complete a dungeon  you can't go back and do it again.  Yeah that would mean the developers would have to make more but it would be so much more fun that way.

Soo fromy your posts what you basically want is...

1000s of developed dungeons that each intricaute and unique and with puzzles that you only need to do once that are really really amazing fun and not a grind to play

Well who doesnt want that and what developer wouldnt wish to give it to you..they arnt all nasty scamsters out there just isnt a viable way to make what you want due to the ..whole ..time  einstein relativity theory thingyme..you will always need to keep people for as long as you can in content you create because it may take 3 hours to do a dungeon but 3 months to develop it from concept to testing it.

what you asking for is someone who makes your favourite TV show to produce them faster than you can watch them...

Originally posted by cukimunga

Its all about opinions on which games are better.  I really didn't like WoW, I felt like I was playing a crappy offline RPG while chatting with some friends in a chatroom. Nobody wanted to group up for quests cuz you really didn't need to and when I did group up for dungeons we ran through them lightning fast.  Got bored of that shit at level 50.

The things that MMO's need to do to keep my attention is have these:

1) More grouping in general, I played FFXI for 3 years, best MMO ever made IMO.

2)  Quests that are longer and interesting, none of this kill 10 wolves bs anymore.

3) Don't make all the good gameplay at End Game.  A game should grab you the instant you start playing and be fun from the start.  Its fun going adventuring and not knowing whats going to happen next compared to rushing through content to get to max level.

4) Have multiple ways of progressing your character. Multiple ways of gaining EXP.

5) Have multiple ways to get the best gear in the game. Not everyone can sit and do the same damn raid 50 billion times to get that rare drop. Its not that I don't have the time to do it, I just can't stand running through the same instance over and over and over and over again.  

6) No items should be soulbound.  You should be able to sell any item and get some decent money from it. Yes there will be people that do RMT but they are gay so oh well. But what if I got money a legit way and wanted to just buy it instead of crafting or doing a raid for some sweet armor.

 

Someday soon hopefully there will be a unique game out there that will hold my attention as along as FFXI again. If not I might as well just give up on MMO's then. They all seem to be geared to the soloers and people that can stand running the same dungeons to get gear, these games just don't interest me in the least.  

I mean come on there has to be some gamers out there that are like me and want the same thing as me. Game companies just need to stop trying to compete with WoW and make something new.  Just like in Field of Dreams " If you build it they will come."  I would be one of those people coming if they would just build the damn thing.

although i do like WoW your ideas sound really awesome

Originally posted by Whipp555

Originally posted by cukimunga

Originally posted by ArchAngel102

 Puzzle solving?
WHERE?!?!?!

Star Trek Online is the only puzzle solvering MMORPG I know of. Most only have the complexity of "Find some npc who looks like everyone else, but has a different name." for puzzles! LoL

 

DDO has puzzle solving.  But yeah there needs to be more puzzle solving in MMO's. More searching for secret passages and disarming traps and stuff like DDO had.  It was a decen't game if only it were more of an open world it could have been my new favorite game. Oh and another thing that killed the game is everyone wanted to do the same dungeons over and over again.

 

I say once you complete a dungeon  you can't go back and do it again.  Yeah that would mean the developers would have to make more but it would be so much more fun that way.

 

Soo fromy your posts what you basically want is...

1000s of developed dungeons that each intricaute and unique and with puzzles that you only need to do once that are really really amazing fun and not a grind to play

Well who doesnt want that and what developer wouldnt wish to give it to you..they arnt all nasty scamsters out there just isnt a viable way to make what you want due to the ..whole ..time  einstein relativity theory thingyme..you will always need to keep people for as long as you can in content you create because it may take 3 hours to do a dungeon but 3 months to develop it from concept to testing it.

what you asking for is someone who makes your favourite TV show to produce them faster than you can watch them...

Well 1000's of dungeons would be kinda crazy.  But I think what Im talking about can be done.   If they make the dungeons tough, if you die you start from the beginning and if nobody puts out strategies i think it  would work.  You could get through it your first try or it could take you 100 tries.   Also with that you'd have to make a LFG system where you can group up with people that have been as far as you've been so nobody is telling you what to do. That is another thing I fucking hate about games. There is always someone saying this has to be done like this, blah blah blah you all know what im talking about. That takes out the sense of adventure and makes dungeons hella boring.

The thing is I don't mind trying stuff over and over again if it is challenging but I hate doing stuff over and over again that is easy, boring and quick.   So if It took me 20 tries to get through one dungeon I'd feel like I accomplished something compared to running the same easy ass one 20 times.

Originally posted by Carcer

Right now 99% of mmo are absolute garbage (Not going to argue this point ).  There is WoW  then everything else is an absolute waste of time, and wow itself is not a good game compared to games from any real game genra.  WoW (or any mmo) can't hold a candle to games like Fallout 3, prototype, infamous, Orange Box, fable II, mass effect, etc. 

The solution is simply make better games, and it will happen.  over the next 5 years we will  see  mmos that keeps updated with latest game engines, keep up with graphic "generation's" , updates it lore monthly, has live events multiple times a week, and most importantly removes level/gear progression in favor of achievements/ titles/tabards/ and style based progression (like xbox did and many others have ripped off).  A truelly great game doesn't need gear/level progression to keep players hooked and game like wow that do are not good games. 

Fable 2 LOLOL

I stopped reading there because that game is so bad, I mean you can't even jump.

You can at least jump in WoW, therefore it is a better game.

Originally posted by Brif

Originally posted by Carcer

Right now 99% of mmo are absolute garbage (Not going to argue this point ).  There is WoW  then everything else is an absolute waste of time, and wow itself is not a good game compared to games from any real game genra.  WoW (or any mmo) can't hold a candle to games like Fallout 3, prototype, infamous, Orange Box, fable II, mass effect, etc. 

The solution is simply make better games, and it will happen.  over the next 5 years we will  see  mmos that keeps updated with latest game engines, keep up with graphic "generation's" , updates it lore monthly, has live events multiple times a week, and most importantly removes level/gear progression in favor of achievements/ titles/tabards/ and style based progression (like xbox did and many others have ripped off).  A truelly great game doesn't need gear/level progression to keep players hooked and game like wow that do are not good games. 

 

Fable 2 LOLOL

I stopped reading there because that game is so bad, I mean you can't even jump.

You can at least jump in WoW, therefore it is a better game.

 Hopefully you are joking...

You can jump in Pitfall on the Atari too. Does that make it a better game?

Originally posted by cukimunga

Originally posted by Brif

Originally posted by Carcer

Right now 99% of mmo are absolute garbage (Not going to argue this point ).  There is WoW  then everything else is an absolute waste of time, and wow itself is not a good game compared to games from any real game genra.  WoW (or any mmo) can't hold a candle to games like Fallout 3, prototype, infamous, Orange Box, fable II, mass effect, etc. 

The solution is simply make better games, and it will happen.  over the next 5 years we will  see  mmos that keeps updated with latest game engines, keep up with graphic "generation's" , updates it lore monthly, has live events multiple times a week, and most importantly removes level/gear progression in favor of achievements/ titles/tabards/ and style based progression (like xbox did and many others have ripped off).  A truelly great game doesn't need gear/level progression to keep players hooked and game like wow that do are not good games. 

 

Fable 2 LOLOL

I stopped reading there because that game is so bad, I mean you can't even jump.

You can at least jump in WoW, therefore it is a better game.

 Hopefully you are joking...

You can jump in Pitfall on the Atari too. Does that make it a better game?

Actually, Pitfall was pretty badass.

Originally posted by bonobotheory

Originally posted by cukimunga

Originally posted by Brif

Originally posted by Carcer

Right now 99% of mmo are absolute garbage (Not going to argue this point ).  There is WoW  then everything else is an absolute waste of time, and wow itself is not a good game compared to games from any real game genra.  WoW (or any mmo) can't hold a candle to games like Fallout 3, prototype, infamous, Orange Box, fable II, mass effect, etc. 

The solution is simply make better games, and it will happen.  over the next 5 years we will  see  mmos that keeps updated with latest game engines, keep up with graphic "generation's" , updates it lore monthly, has live events multiple times a week, and most importantly removes level/gear progression in favor of achievements/ titles/tabards/ and style based progression (like xbox did and many others have ripped off).  A truelly great game doesn't need gear/level progression to keep players hooked and game like wow that do are not good games. 

 

Fable 2 LOLOL

I stopped reading there because that game is so bad, I mean you can't even jump.

You can at least jump in WoW, therefore it is a better game.

 Hopefully you are joking...

You can jump in Pitfall on the Atari too. Does that make it a better game?

Actually, Pitfall was pretty badass.

Yeah it was a sweet game but I was more of a Combat kind of guy. 

Originally posted by Carcer

Right now 99% of mmo are absolute garbage (Not going to argue this point ).  There is WoW  then everything else is an absolute waste of time, and wow itself is not a good game compared to games from any real game genra.  WoW (or any mmo) can't hold a candle to games like Fallout 3, prototype, infamous, Orange Box, fable II, mass effect, etc. 

The solution is simply make better games, and it will happen.  over the next 5 years we will  see  mmos that keeps updated with latest game engines, keep up with graphic "generation's" , updates it lore monthly, has live events multiple times a week, and most importantly removes level/gear progression in favor of achievements/ titles/tabards/ and style based progression (like xbox did and many others have ripped off).  A truelly great game doesn't need gear/level progression to keep players hooked and game like wow that do are not good games. 

LOL .. don't parade your opinions as if they are facts.

Score on metacritic.com

WOW 93%

Prototype 79%

Fallout 3 PC 91%

Infamous PS3 85%

Orange Box 96%

Fable 2 89%

Mass effect PC 89%

Only Orange box rated higher than WOW and only about 3 pts different.

Originally posted by Carcer

Right now 99% of mmo are absolute garbage (Not going to argue this point ). 

Most MMO's just do not appeal to me, doesn't make them garbage as many still seem to enjoy them.

There is WoW  then everything else is an absolute waste of time, and wow itself is not a good game compared to games from any real game genra.  WoW (or any mmo) can't hold a candle to games like Fallout 3, prototype, infamous, Orange Box, fable II, mass effect, etc. 

MMO's do not have to hold a candle to games like FO3, Prototype, Infamous, Orange Box as what  they deliver they can do so cause they are single player games. The gab has always been about 3/5 years seeing certain feature's in single player games surface into MMORPG's as tech has sort of catched up, yet if it's done in 3/5 years new single player games will be released, making gamers of multible genre's even want more out of other game genre's

The solution is simply make better games, and it will happen.  over the next 5 years we will  see  mmos that keeps updated with latest game engines, keep up with graphic "generation's" , updates it lore monthly, has live events multiple times a week, and most importantly removes level/gear progression in favor of achievements/ titles/tabards/ and style based progression (like xbox did and many others have ripped off).  A truelly great game doesn't need gear/level progression to keep players hooked and game like wow that do are not good games. 

I am always puzzled when I see certain reason as to why people might not lie a game, to me as a none-wow player but gamer overall I am not blind seeing 11+ mil. people are enjoying the game, which to me proofs it's a great game, though it might not be for me, would never mean it is a bad game. But then again my reason of not liking hte current trend of MMO's might aswell be something people might see differently as my reason is that they are far to limited, and for a MMORPG to really capture me it needs to feel like a world, and not like another online game, I play plenty of those and enoy them for it, but MMORPG could and should be so much more.