Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by JGMIII 

I don;t think the Pve content was bad in WAR.

The quests were like every other MMO, the PQs were fun, the dungeons were decent and the ToK was a blast.

I only had a problem with crafting since I enjoy more indpeth systems like they have in Ryzom, Eve, UO and SWG.

I've played alot of games that had worse Pve content most of the people complaining are the ones that want progression raids with ten tiers of sets to collect like WoW oh and lets not forget daily quests the WoW players part time job.

 

Ask some players if they would subscribe to warhammer if the RvR sieging was removed from the game.  See how many people think it would survive on its pve merits alone.  Hell keep the scenarios on top of that.  Then say the pve in this game is as good as other games on the market that do much better than warhammer without the RvR aspect. 

The mechanics of the quests are similar to other games yes, but the quality, divercity and story telling is years behind.  Public quests are a cute concept that someday another company may flesh out, but they are a complete bore in warhammer after the novelty wears off.  Like you said, "PQs were fun" and yes there were for a few levels.  Then it turned into a boring repetitve grind. 

 

If the pve was as good as other games (even without tiered raids and dailies that you like to belittle), then more people would play this game.  Why wouldn't anyone play a game that has equal quality pve AND rvr pvp on top of that right?  Obviously they don't.

 

Sure there are worse games on the market, but that doesn't make this good. 

If WARs pvp was ommited from the game noone would play it. The same can be said about omitting pve from wow and watching it die with its limiting pvp.

Whats so wrong with creating a game focused on a few mechanics? why can;t people just enjoy a pve or pvp focused game?

Are you new to MMOs? was WoW your first game where you need every MMO you play to be a jack of all trades mmo to even be interesting to you?

The MMO community as a whole needs to get that "we want everything" out of thier heads. It's proven that a game trying to copy wow fails, jack of all trades fail.

Look at eve its a pvp game and its successful, look at FFXI its a pve game and its successful. even lotro is making a good profit with its pve focused game.

I'm not saying WAR didnt have problems but people didn't leave the game due to lack of pve it was balance and stability issues and too many servers released at the start.

I didn;t see anyone in WAR say it needed more Raids.

Originally posted by JGMIII

Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by JGMIII 

I don;t think the Pve content was bad in WAR.

The quests were like every other MMO, the PQs were fun, the dungeons were decent and the ToK was a blast.

I only had a problem with crafting since I enjoy more indpeth systems like they have in Ryzom, Eve, UO and SWG.

I've played alot of games that had worse Pve content most of the people complaining are the ones that want progression raids with ten tiers of sets to collect like WoW oh and lets not forget daily quests the WoW players part time job.

 

Ask some players if they would subscribe to warhammer if the RvR sieging was removed from the game.  See how many people think it would survive on its pve merits alone.  Hell keep the scenarios on top of that.  Then say the pve in this game is as good as other games on the market that do much better than warhammer without the RvR aspect. 

The mechanics of the quests are similar to other games yes, but the quality, divercity and story telling is years behind.  Public quests are a cute concept that someday another company may flesh out, but they are a complete bore in warhammer after the novelty wears off.  Like you said, "PQs were fun" and yes there were for a few levels.  Then it turned into a boring repetitve grind. 

 

If the pve was as good as other games (even without tiered raids and dailies that you like to belittle), then more people would play this game.  Why wouldn't anyone play a game that has equal quality pve AND rvr pvp on top of that right?  Obviously they don't.

 

Sure there are worse games on the market, but that doesn't make this good. 

 

If WARs pvp was ommited from the game noone would play it. The same can be said about omitting pve from wow and watching it die with its limiting pvp.

Whats so wrong with creating a game focused on a few mechanics? why can;t people just enjoy a pve or pvp focused game?

Are you new to MMOs? was WoW your first game where you need every MMO you play to be a jack of all trades mmo to even be interesting to you?

The MMO community as a whole needs to get that "we want everything" out of thier heads. It's proven that a game trying to copy wow fails, jack of all trades fail.

Look at eve its a pvp game and its successful, look at FFXI its a pve game and its successful. even lotro is making a good profit with its pve focused game.

I'm not saying WAR didnt have problems but people didn't leave the game due to lack of pve it was balance and stability issues and too many servers released at the start.

I didn;t see anyone in WAR say it needed more Raids.

Jesus christ, can you ever make one post without generalizing or drawing assumptions about the people posting instead of just the topic?  Seriously you have a something negative to blame on people for any unsupported theory you wish to dream up.  

I've been playing mmos since UO since it is so vital to your opinion on how warhammer should work.  Happy? 

I highlighted in red the point you are missing.  You say warhammers pve is equal to the rest of the market and in the same breath call wows pvp limited.  So if warhammers pve is the same as everything else and much better pvp, then why does the game continue to merge server after server? 

I will tell you why, because the pve does suck and to some people that mattered.  On top of that warhammer struggle to achieve the rvr/pvp it sets out to do.  There is little that the game actually does well in a grand sense of things.  It does some nice things here and there, but overall it falls flat in just about everything it sets out to do.  That includes the pve which you so glibly gloss over as unimportant, because somehow the focus is pvp.  As if that justifies dull uninspiring gameplay to anything not directly related to pvp.  That was my point. 

A good read, I agree mostly with all of the authors points. The only big one I would add to it is "lack of warhammer-ness", the warhammer universe is huge, has great fiction and is an awesome world...Mythic delivered a dumbed-down, kidified and vastly diminished world.

Traffic shaping by Isp is also a nice WAR killer.

Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by JGMIII

Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by JGMIII 

I don;t think the Pve content was bad in WAR.

The quests were like every other MMO, the PQs were fun, the dungeons were decent and the ToK was a blast.

I only had a problem with crafting since I enjoy more indpeth systems like they have in Ryzom, Eve, UO and SWG.

I've played alot of games that had worse Pve content most of the people complaining are the ones that want progression raids with ten tiers of sets to collect like WoW oh and lets not forget daily quests the WoW players part time job.

 

Ask some players if they would subscribe to warhammer if the RvR sieging was removed from the game.  See how many people think it would survive on its pve merits alone.  Hell keep the scenarios on top of that.  Then say the pve in this game is as good as other games on the market that do much better than warhammer without the RvR aspect. 

The mechanics of the quests are similar to other games yes, but the quality, divercity and story telling is years behind.  Public quests are a cute concept that someday another company may flesh out, but they are a complete bore in warhammer after the novelty wears off.  Like you said, "PQs were fun" and yes there were for a few levels.  Then it turned into a boring repetitve grind. 

 

If the pve was as good as other games (even without tiered raids and dailies that you like to belittle), then more people would play this game.  Why wouldn't anyone play a game that has equal quality pve AND rvr pvp on top of that right?  Obviously they don't.

 

Sure there are worse games on the market, but that doesn't make this good. 

 

If WARs pvp was ommited from the game noone would play it. The same can be said about omitting pve from wow and watching it die with its limiting pvp.

Whats so wrong with creating a game focused on a few mechanics? why can;t people just enjoy a pve or pvp focused game?

Are you new to MMOs? was WoW your first game where you need every MMO you play to be a jack of all trades mmo to even be interesting to you?

The MMO community as a whole needs to get that "we want everything" out of thier heads. It's proven that a game trying to copy wow fails, jack of all trades fail.

Look at eve its a pvp game and its successful, look at FFXI its a pve game and its successful. even lotro is making a good profit with its pve focused game.

I'm not saying WAR didnt have problems but people didn't leave the game due to lack of pve it was balance and stability issues and too many servers released at the start.

I didn;t see anyone in WAR say it needed more Raids.

Jesus christ, can you ever make one post without generalizing or drawing assumptions about the people posting instead of just the topic?  Seriously you have a something negative to blame on people for any unsupported theory you wish to dream up.  

I've been playing mmos since UO since it is so vital to your opinion on how warhammer should work.  Happy? 

 

 

I highlighted in red the point you are missing.  You say warhammers pve is equal to the rest of the market and in the same breath call wows pvp limited.  So if warhammers pve is the same as everything else and much better pvp, then why does the game continue to merge server after server? 

 

I will tell you why, because the pve does suck and to some people that mattered.  On top of that warhammer struggle to achieve the rvr/pvp it sets out to do.  There is little that the game actually does well in a grand sense of things.  It does some nice things here and there, but overall it falls flat in just about everything it sets out to do.  That includes the pve which you so glibly gloss over as unimportant, because somehow the focus is pvp.  As if that justifies dull uninspiring gameplay to anything not directly related to pvp.  That was my point. 

 

 

First of all calm yourself before you have a heart attack.

Second, You brought up what people may say if WAR ommitted pvp not me.

Third, I don't give a shit what MMO you played.

I never said WARs pve was just as good as every other games, I said it wasnt bad and i've seen other games with worst (i never said which ones).

News flash buddy, WAR is a pvp game if your leaving due to lack of pve stuff then you don't belong in game.

I don;t log into FFXI and bitch on the forums because it lacks pvp, same for lotro.

 Edit: when you actually played UO did you also bitch due to lack of pve? wait maybe you were a pro-Trammel player......

Originally posted by ericbelser

A good read, I agree mostly with all of the authors points. The only big one I would add to it is "lack of warhammer-ness", the warhammer universe is huge, has great fiction and is an awesome world...Mythic delivered a dumbed-down, kidified and vastly diminished world.

 I totally agree

Warhammer when i was a kid was kind of a gothic dark world and what you had in warhammer online is a blatent copy of WoW style

For me the real fail with warhammer is that rather build on the depth of franchise it had and create a working living world it just made it very much into a childrens game to try and steal the WoW wave. The Irony is that the warcraft games originally always seemed a poor mans warhammer to me.

Sadly its the same story for game after game..someone make a actual RPG agian please!

Originally posted by Whipp555

Sadly its the same story for game after game..someone make a actual RPG agian please!

Originally posted by arctarus

A great article that someone share from warhammer alliance. Thought i'll share with you guys here..

www.brighthub.com/video-games/mmo/articles/44427.aspx

Though i dont think the Dev can ever turn this game around, but hopefully for future games they dont make the same mistake..

 

 

Edit: Long read, but nice...

 

 

The only time I consider something a true postmortem is when it is written by the devs themselves. And since these devs continue to think their game is awesome I doubt we'll ever see that.
 

Yeah I agree sadly. While I never played Warhammer the TT game I was excited for this however there was really nothing Warhammer about it... It could have been anything really and the lore was lacking considering how much actual lore there really is. I could have been playing WoW2 or EQ3 for all I knew.

I know this is a bit off topic but what the hell is so wrong with a game that focuses on particular mechanics?

Why do most of you need all these jack of all trade master of none games?

I used to love DAoC and that game early on was all about pvp it was fucking epic.

Games like Lotro, FFXI and Eq2 are all about Pve (mostly) and are fun games to play.

Why must a game be everything in one package?

When did most of you guys start thinking like this?

Is it the money? do you not want to spend a monthly fee if you can't have everything?

Imo that's freaking lame!

how are indy developers going to achieve a game that supports every type of MMO sub genre? sure WoW pulled off the "Everything to everyone" but thats freaking blizzard with their mega bucks. Even with all that money they still delivered a watered down experience compared to more focused games imo.

While even WAR has it's faults the pvp in that game instanced and none instanced is the best since DAoC in the fantasy themepark sub genre imo.

I just don;t understand why most people want  every game to be exaclty the same (quests, leveling, classes, raids, instanced pvp) all in one.

Variety is a good thing or atleast I think so.

It's almost like the mmo community is a lost cause, it's frustrating tbh.

my problem with war was that everything felt staged and not real. It felt like a war play wtih actors on a stage so to speak. It didnt feel like anything really was urgent or mattered.

What went wrong with WAR? Easy.

- lack of one, unzoned persistent world like in WoW

- lack of meaningful goals for a group/guild to achieve just stupid keeps that change hands every 15 mins with no consequence whatsoever

- basing the game on Warhammer Fantasy Battlle rather than WFRP; WFB was done to death by WoW which was supposed to be a Warhammer FB computer game in the first place back in the '90s

- huge, fun PvP battles but with no long lasting and world changing consequence (like in EVE for example)

- basically the game feels like bigger WoW's battlegrounds with much better PvP mechanics but with the same grindy, repetitive gameplay

P.S. Class balance? if u want class balance sign up to communist party... altho i still think Orcs are well OPed but its what they are (fantasy tanks/terminators) its the first MMO where ure not playing a Wizard that can take 1 mln DMG like a tank

Originally posted by JGMIII 

First of all calm yourself before you have a heart attack.

-ok I guess

Second, You brought up what people may say if WAR ommitted pvp not me.

Third, I don't give a shit what MMO you played.

I never said WARs pve was just as good as every other games, I said it wasnt bad and i've seen other games with worst (i never said which ones).

News flash buddy, WAR is a pvp game if your leaving due to lack of pve stuff then you don't belong in game.

I don;t log into FFXI and bitch on the forums because it lacks pvp, same for lotro.

 Edit: when you actually played UO did you also bitch due to lack of pve? wait maybe you were a pro-Trammel player......

 

1) Yes heart attack, thanks for the advice doctor.  I'll get right on that.

2) You said war is a pvp game and that pve players "didn't" belong.  Just to quote you

"Edit: to any posters in this thread complaining about lack of raids or dungeon content you weren't intended to even be playing WAR. This game is a pvp game lol. Pve in WAR equals PQs, crafting, quests and a few minor dungeons."

If you had opened your mind just a little bit you would see that mythic spent a great deal of time on the PVE portion of the game.  I would wager that there is more real estate dedicated to pve than there is to pvp in your self proclaimed pvp only game.  There are numberous videos of mythic developers talking about how players can player from start to finish without ever joining in pvp.  So you would be wrong in your assestment on many levels in a game where pvp was billed as being optional. 

Also, the keep seiging was not part of the original game design and only added in the late hours of beta, because players were saying the game was lacking.  Before you go off telling people they don't belong somewhere you may want to do just a little research, because warhammer almost was the game without RvR that we both agree no one would have subscribed to.  

3) Now you don't care what games I have played, because you directly asked me if, and I quote you, "Are you new to MMOs? was WoW your first game where you need every MMO you play to be a jack of all trades mmo to even be interesting to you?"

So please don't act like you were not trying to paint me into some bad light with that type of comment or whatever other gross generalization you inflate to give yourself some sense of credibility. 

Furthermore, it was not my desire or anyone elses desire for warhammer to have a pve aspect to the game.  That is how mythic designed it.  What is so hard to understand about that?  Players are just reacting to what mythic made and how they billed it. 

Never said warhammers pve just as good as the rest of the market?  Actually you said it was the same as every other game as far as quests, dungeons, etc.  Except when you said there were worse games, which we can both agree one.

"I don;t think the Pve content was bad in WAR...The quests were like every other MMO, the PQs were fun, the dungeons were decent and the ToK was a blast."

I think you will be hard pressed to find many people who think warhammers pve was on par with the rest of the market and would be overwhemled with people who found it stale, repetitve and uninspiring to say the least. 

What went right for this POS? Not much, I'd say. I can't think of a single aspect of this game that isn't done better somewhere else. Or for that matter, a game I played less before logging off for good. I'm just glad I never bought a client.

I agree on all but one point: Bright Wizard. I played one, and yes a BW did tons of dmg, but on the downside, I was often enough furious because I died like crap. A Wizard class needs CC to stay alive. Without CC, no one will play BW, and when I later tried WAR again, BW wasnt much played. Elven Archers (or whatever they are called in the English version) do almost the same dmg and survive MUCH better, so why play BW when Archer does almost the same?

The other points I fully agree with. Order was terribly uncool, there was no emotional connection to the keeps like in DAOC and lack of 3rd faction made it very stale. PVE was quite boring, and surely not interesting enough for the PVP nuts, at least not in our days when we are used a wee bit more than kill 50 of X, because I say so.

I don't like those overly specialized games which focus on one aspect, on a personal note, and prefer MMOs with many different things to do and spheres to experience.

Also, I never really felt like in a world, more like in a staged theme park course. I never knew where in the world I was, it was all zones not showing on the world map, and I felt like led from entertainment point A to B asf. Not like discovering a world step by step on my own, but rather "now go there, to War-point X next".

Originally posted by JGMIII

Why do most of you need all these jack of all trade master of none games?

Why must a game be everything in one package?

While even WAR has it's faults the pvp in that game instanced and none instanced is the best since DAoC in the fantasy themepark sub genre imo.

I just don;t understand why most people want  every game to be exaclty the same (quests, leveling, classes, raids, instanced pvp) all in one. 

Way to incorporate multiple strawmen into one post!

Let's see, main complaints people have raised that have nothing to do with anything you mentioned:

WAR is a typical level-driven MMO, you have to level to participate in the PvP you claim is soo great. Well how? WAR PvE sucks balls, with the possible exception of AoC it's the worst out there of the current generation of MMOs. Levelling through PvP either means grinding the same repetitive scenario over and over again or desperately looking for any content/fight in a pvp zone.

It's a horrible interpretation of the Warhammer Universe that many of us knew and loved. Dumbed down, cartoonified and vastly smaller and more limited.

Trying the 3-realm RvR model with only 2 realms doesn't work

Buggy sieges and other technical problems

Poor/nenextistant realm balance and possibly worse class balance

How does a single one of those, let alone all of them, equate to the idea that any of us  "want every game to be exaclty the same"??

Originally posted by Scyris

You wanna know what went wrong with it? this was why.

 

Rule#1 - MMORPGs are PVE games with PVP elements, not the other way around.
Rule#2 - Any MMO that forces PVP fails.
Rule#3 - Enticing PVEers to PVP is different than forcing them to. NO scenario/idea that forces it has succeeded.
Rule#4 - The same as Rule#3 can be applied to RP - you cannot force it.
Rule#5 - Before you get lippy, remember Rule#1.

 

It failed rule number 1 and 2 and also 3. Warhammer online has a very poor pve part to it. and the fact it forces pvp to get decent gear that should be availble as mob drops is another reason it failed. Devs need to learn that pvp based mmorpg's just won't get the casual players. I like pvp myself, but I still have a retail warhammer online cd-key I haven't used. Thought the game sucked when I was in the early access part. Even though world of warcraft is a crappy game by most peoples standarts, its a mmorpg setup for the casual mmo player, that and the fact its by blizzard is why its doing so well.

 

 

There was some 800k people willing to be "forced" to PvP when this game came out.. It was a well known fact this game was about PvP and/or RvR.

To say MMOs are just about PvE shows just how narrow minded this post is...

If they didn't screw up end game, class balance, server stabilty, etc.  this game may have done very well for itself...

The difference between nature and men is: nature learns from mistakes and obsolete systems die out. But no matter how many MMOs fail, they make the same failures over and over and over with the next MMO and NEVER learn.

 I concur this game would have been better. 

Now lets figure out what can be done to save it

Originally posted by ericbelser

Originally posted by JGMIII

Why do most of you need all these jack of all trade master of none games?

Why must a game be everything in one package?

While even WAR has it's faults the pvp in that game instanced and none instanced is the best since DAoC in the fantasy themepark sub genre imo.

I just don;t understand why most people want  every game to be exaclty the same (quests, leveling, classes, raids, instanced pvp) all in one. 

 

Way to incorporate multiple strawmen into one post!

The post your quoting is a bit off topic and I even said it was. it's mroe a complaint on the gamer community in not wanting diverse games in the genre and more Jack of all trades.

Let's see, main complaints people have raised that have nothing to do with anything you mentioned:

WAR is a typical level-driven MMO, you have to level to participate in the PvP you claim is soo great. Well how? WAR PvE sucks balls, with the possible exception of AoC it's the worst out there of the current generation of MMOs. Levelling through PvP either means grinding the same repetitive scenario over and over again or desperately looking for any content/fight in a pvp zone.

In this thread I actually said the problem with WAR was that it was too dependent on a massive amount of players but once you actually have those players WARs scenarios and Orvr is easily better than any thing we've seen since DAoC. Thats a big But though.

It's a horrible interpretation of the Warhammer Universe that many of us knew and loved. Dumbed down, cartoonified and vastly smaller and more limited.

As a sandbox player myself Im the first to admit the game is limited.

Trying the 3-realm RvR model with only 2 realms doesn't work

Actually I had alot of fun with the FvF pvp in WAR it just needed more people participating in it but yes Like i;ve said DAoC was a better game.

Buggy sieges and other technical problems

I already spoke on the Client stability, it was one of my problems with WAR. Maybe you should check out my first post in the thread?

Poor/nenextistant realm balance and possibly worse class balance

Yes population problems are rampant in WAR , I don;t really have a problem with class balance as I understand that WAR is a large siege pvp game something a ton of you guys seem to miss.

How does a single one of those, let alone all of them, equate to the idea that any of us  "want every game to be exaclty the same"??

My post came after an argument with someone bitching about Pve in a pvp game and wanting more of a jack of all trades game. Reread the thread please.