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8/08/09 2:51:40 PM#126
Originally posted by Emotep
Funny, I was just grinding Agility Points in Elder Scrolls: Oblivion by bunny hopping for 25 minutes.
OP, you make me lol. You're twisting the meaning around and saying to unlock or accomplish anyting in ANY type of game that requires any time at all is grinding. So I was playing Super Mario 64 for about an hour and trying to get all the stars in a level, is that grinding? |
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Originally posted by thark
No I didn't. I meant RPG. Some of the greatest single player RPGs have heavy grinding. Final Fantasy Series, Lunar Series, Xenogears, Xenosaga series, Chronotrigger, ChronoCross, Valkyria Chronicles, Eternal Sonata... All have heavy amounts of grind that made them great.
If you don't like grinding, you shouldn't be playing RPGs, let alone MMORPGs. |
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8/08/09 3:50:27 PM#128
Originally posted by Emotep
No I didn't. I meant RPG. Some of the greatest single player RPGs have heavy grinding. Final Fantasy Series, Lunar Series, Xenogears, Xenosaga series, Chronotrigger, ChronoCross, Valkyria Chronicles, Eternal Sonata... All have heavy amounts of grind that made them great.
If you don't like grinding, you shouldn't be playing RPGs, let alone MMORPGs. I could be wrong but every single play rpg you listed is an Asian game. Now i love the asian art style myself but perhaps these games helped coin the phrase "asian grinder".? I have played none of the games listed except FF X so im no authority and cant comment as to if they are grinders or not. But many RPG's (most of them already mentioned here) do not have this grind you speak of. NWN, Baldurs Gate on and on so your idea that all RPG's are grinds is not accurate. |
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PapaB34R
 Advanced Member
Joined: 11/15/04
Never lose your way, or someone else might find it |
8/08/09 3:56:47 PM#129
Originally posted by Emotep
No I didn't. I meant RPG. Some of the greatest single player RPGs have heavy grinding. Final Fantasy Series, Lunar Series, Xenogears, Xenosaga series, Chronotrigger, ChronoCross, Valkyria Chronicles, Eternal Sonata... All have heavy amounts of grind that made them great.
If you don't like grinding, you shouldn't be playing RPGs, let alone MMORPGs.
*notes all of those titles are asian based* Yeah and what about the Fallout series, Oblivion, KoToR, never winter nights I and II, Arcadium Vampire? to add RPG hybrids also grindfree, Mass effect, Fallout 3(not as the 1 and 2 above in the series), Overlord 1 and (maybe 2 that one got some elements of grind, altough completely volaintairly), Baldurs Gate I and II. You are either very small minded or have little to non-experience of any of these games otherwise you wouldnt be able to make such a dumb statement.
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8/08/09 4:01:53 PM#130
Papa-
To work hard and have fun can be the same thing. Ask any professional sports athlete, poker player.. hell, anyone with a proactive hobby. Golf, bowling, pingpong, DRINKING GAMES even. The reason "work hard" is said is based on EFFORT. Yes you CAN have fun without working hard, and yes that is a viable form of gameplay. But playing any sort of game involving a grind and saying it isn't is as illogical as you said about a quester not doing all the quests. Yes, doing ALL the quests when it is not NEEDED is grinding. And why? Because it is a goal to achieve that is not necessary. That's why it is a grind. Again, "grind" isn't always a negative word. It's like the word "shit". It CAN be bad, but it isn't always so, and it is a commonly used word. And yes, you can grind to be a form of training. Some games have training dummies or targetable mobs you can't kill or can't kill you, and you can constantly swing on them or cast on them to gain skill points in that particular skill. Why? To be a better caster. Or a better swordsman. Especially with weapon changes. If you are a <insert high level number> who uses say... a 1hand sword and are maxed in the use of that weapon and found a new axe that you have a real low skill, you want to TRAIN that axe skill to be on par with your level. I'm lost as to why this is illogical or bullshit as you put it.
Keep in mind, for the sake of your argument, it is true you do not HAVE to. You really don't. But if you take a game that is built on something, and you play it, you generally want to be good at it.
Take a bike for instance. Bike riding can be fun. Doesn't mean you have to work at being on the x games, but you tend to always want to be better at it.
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Originally posted by PapaB34R
*notes all of those titles are asian based* Yeah and what about the Fallout series, Oblivion, KoToR, never winter nights I and II, Arcadium Vampire? to add RPG hybrids also grindfree, Mass effect, Fallout 3(not as the 1 and 2 above in the series), Overlord 1 and (maybe 2 that one got some elements of grind, altough completely volaintairly), Baldurs Gate I and II. You are either very small minded or have little to non-experience of any of these games otherwise you wouldnt be able to make such a dumb statement.
In Oblivion, you grind stat points by doing things like bunny hopping and lock picking. In KoToR, you grind levels and lightsaber crystals In Mass Effect, you grind levels for characters not named SHEPHARD in order to keep them on equal level. |
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8/08/09 4:14:40 PM#132
In overlord you grind to get more minions if you do not have enough to craft weapons or armor, or if you need or even want more of a specific color. Or grind more gold to decorate your tower. None of it is needless, or not fun. But it's still grinding. I still stand by my comment earlier and maintain alot of you guys are scared of the word "grind". It really isn't as bad as you think. If it helps, think of it as homework. You can pass your class with a C, but is that really what is best if that class is in your field?
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8/08/09 4:17:42 PM#133
"grind" in an rpg maybe isnt needed but in an mmo that wants long subs "grind" is needed. no "grind" no subs.
quoted grind because everyone has its own deffinition of grind |
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PapaB34R
Advanced Member
Joined: 11/15/04
Never lose your way, or someone else might find it |
8/08/09 6:39:41 PM#134
needless to say I disagree with the previous posts, but that doesnt matter. Ive named games you dont have to grind to play them, if you do or if you dont is not important. This thread fails and although there has been several points made out not just by me but by others some fail to see the light. Sure some games you gotta like grind to play but most atleast western based RPGs you dont but then again its how you define grind that qualify this, I suggest those who name ex questing as grind should perhaps google the word and see what theyll find. you dont need to grind in Mass Effect thats bullshit, Ive played the game 3 times over and won on the hardest difficulty with the max lvl of character of 56, you dont need to level your followers up if you dont want to and thats on the hardest frickin settings?! You dont need to bunny jump or train lock picking in Oblivion if you dont want to. You dont need to farm life force in Overlord 1 if you dont want to You dont need to farm for crystals in KoToR? You find plenty by exploration alone. Just because you can doesnt mean you have to! Thats the point, if you dont wanna max out your character you can still win any of these games above and the ones I mentioned in my previous post. To say something like " If you don't like grinding, you shouldn't be playing RPGs" either makes you ignorant or mentally retarded. It is to asume everone is like you and want this and that and further more its not something you can say about a whole genre of games, first of all because you cant possibly have played them all and secondly its not even the rule, its the exception(unless MMO then its the rule) If OP on the other hand had said If you don't like grinding, you shouldn't be playing MMOs then I would tend to agree but as for story based single playing games this is just not right, anyone with a little experience in that area could tell you that. Remember its not what you can or should do that matters its how you do it and how others from you may do it differently, just because you can do it doesnt mean you have to, its entertainment and how you want to play it is up to you.
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8/08/09 7:44:49 PM#135
Originally posted by Emotep
No I didn't. I meant RPG. Some of the greatest single player RPGs have heavy grinding. Final Fantasy Series, Lunar Series, Xenogears, Xenosaga series, Chronotrigger, ChronoCross, Valkyria Chronicles, Eternal Sonata... All have heavy amounts of grind that made them great.
If you don't like grinding, you shouldn't be playing RPGs, let alone MMORPGs. I am curious if u have ever played any of the Western RPGs because, as many people have pointed out, they generaly dont have any mandatory grind in them (at least the good ones). I haven't played any of the games that u have listed, so i cant really compare the quality of Asian VS Western RPG, but in my experience any Western RPGs that have grind in them are not very good. In my opinion a RPG is supposed to be a giant puzzle that you try to unravel and leveling should only serve as means to change the scenery and introduce new elements. An example of RPG that requires absolutely no grind is Fallout 1 and Fallout 2. Both are considered to be contenders for the "greatest RPGs ever made" title. Each game can be beaten under 10 minutes by a person who mastered the game, however there is enough content to keep u going and discovering new things for weeks, months even. |
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8/08/09 7:52:14 PM#136
In that regard you are absolutely correct. Without fail. Just like if you don't want to play you don't have to. If you don't want to pay a subscription fee you don't have to. If you want to take 5x the time to get to the same point as everyone else in a game (game skills, levels, whatever) you don't have to grind. That's not the point. That's an argument to win to suit your needs. If you want to be on the same playing field as EVERYONE ELSE, you have to. Yes, you can beat many games NOT at max level, NOT at max skills, NOT at max quest completion. Anything is possible. You can even pvp as a 35 against lvl 50s, or a lvl 2 vs 80, whatever... it's not the "can" that's the question. If you flat out are against grinding, then you're definitely finding specific rpg titles to play or else you are most likely wasting your time and money. But that's not the point either. The point is to be prepared to grind. Period. Whether you do it or not is up to you. Choice. But most RPGs, MMORPGs and even some FPSs HAVE grinds. And if you want something specific, you are going to be grinding, unless that something specific is to just beat the game.
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8/08/09 7:53:39 PM#137
Originally posted by Emotep
honestly, i dont think anybody likes grinding. grinding is basically defined as boring. its just how much tolerence u have for grinding. i'd play aion because pvp is fun. but getting to 50 is gunna be a pain. lots of grinding. but thats not gunna stop me from grinding. thats what all rpgs are about. grinding and kicking ass. |
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8/08/09 7:54:35 PM#138
MMOs don't build grinds. Players build grinds by repeatedly doing the same task to reach a goal. If you played an mmoRPG as that, a Role Playing game, then you'd practically never "grind." Simply because no one alive can sit there for days on end hunting, fishing, building ect. You need rest, food, water other aspects of the game.
Even asian grind machines don't MAKE you grind. There's other missions to do, other ways to play. It's you, the player, that forces yourself to do the same thing over and over and over.
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Originally posted by tehowl I am curious if u have ever played any of the Western RPGs because, as many people have pointed out, they generaly dont have any mandatory grind in them (at least the good ones). I haven't played any of the games that u have listed, so i cant really compare the quality of Asian VS Western RPG, but in my experience any Western RPGs that have grind in them are not very good. In my opinion a RPG is supposed to be a giant puzzle that you try to unravel and leveling should only serve as means to change the scenery and introduce new elements. An example of RPG that requires absolutely no grind is Fallout 1 and Fallout 2. Both are considered to be contenders for the "greatest RPGs ever made" title. Each game can be beaten under 10 minutes by a person who mastered the game, however there is enough content to keep u going and discovering new things for weeks, months even.
Yup. I've played the Elder Scrolls games, including Oblivion. In that game, I grinded lockpicking for a few hours in order to master the stealth skill and grinded agility skill points by bunnyhopping around the main city for a few hours. I also grinded sneak skill by auto following NPCs for a few hours while stealthed. Also have played the Knights of the Old Republic games, where I spent many hours grinding for the best lightsaber crystals and grinding levels for skillpoints, so I could run the Jedi Gauntlet at the end of the game that you need to do in order to finish the game.
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8/08/09 8:02:51 PM#140
Uh... mmos DO build grinds. Anything with faction, reputation, or a skill does. Because most aspects are level capped and have so many different ones (weapons specifically) that you have to grind to keep up. Why do people not understand this? Is it the technical, literal word that throws people off? GRINDING = TIMESINK. TIMESINK = MORE TIME PLAYED. = money. But like mentioned.. you don't "have" to. It's up to you to set yourself up for failure, as long as you have fun doing it I guess. The most simplistic thing I can think of is... more things to do, more time played doing them. If you (as a collective) don't want to think of it as a grind, more power to you. But you're still doing it lol.
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8/08/09 8:18:28 PM#141
Originally posted by Emotep
Yup. I've played the Elder Scrolls games, including Oblivion. In that game, I grinded lockpicking for a few hours in order to master the stealth skill and grinded agility skill points by bunnyhopping around the main city for a few hours. I also grinded sneak skill by auto following NPCs for a few hours while stealthed. Also have played the Knights of the Old Republic games, where I spent many hours grinding for the best lightsaber crystals and grinding levels for skillpoints, so I could run the Jedi Gauntlet at the end of the game that you need to do in order to finish the game.
First of all, i dont find Oblivion to be all that good. Second, if i remember correctly in that game you can open even the hardest lock with a low lockpick skill if your skill as a player is good enough. Grinding agility was completely optional. I would even consider it to be a form of cheating. The game did not intend for you bunnyhop around town. Didn't play KOTOR, but as someone pointed out earlier in this thread you dont have to grind for crystals if you don't want to and if I played the game, i probably wouldn't. My point is: if you are trying to find grind, you probably will find it in most games, but it is not the game's fault, it's just your playstyle. |
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8/08/09 8:23:06 PM#142
If you haven't played Lineage 1, you do not know what grinding is.
Please, do not complain. |
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8/08/09 8:23:59 PM#143
You can deny the meaning of grind all you want, but if I do not do the same thing repeatedly, I am not grinding. You don't HAVE to do missions to get experience to level. You choose to.
And what do you mean "if you have fun doing it I guess?" It's a game. The ONLY purpose IS to have fun. There's nothing else. You play games to be entertained. Any other reason is setting yourself up for failure. If you have fun being at level 1 for 3 years, you're winning the game.
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8/08/09 8:31:21 PM#144
You're kind of speaking my point. Almost word for word. Were you looking for an argument or a win? I'm lost lol. Yes, if you aren't doing the same thing over and over it isn't a grind. I agree! If you have fun being lvl 1 for 3 years, yes you win! /cheer I agree with that too! I also agree with not having to do missions for experience. Absolutely! Tons of things to do. Kill people. Kill mobs. The only thing I could argue about is the "play to have fun" because that's technically inaccurate but not wrong. It's to be "entertained" but meh, that's splitting hairs. Generally, I agree with your whole post though! But it isn't me changing the definition of the word "grind", keep that in mind. /wink
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8/08/09 8:35:41 PM#145
IMO Wow is my favorite game to level in. It takes about 120 hours of gameplay, which I believe is a nice reasonable time to reach max level. Players used to a long grind may hate it, but I think its the directions MMO's should go in. Also, WoW is all about questing and not just grinding certain areas which i enjoy also, it gives leveling some meaning. Also WoW may be short grind in comparison to other games, but its not like a ridiculous 20 hours to max level or something like that. It takes a little longer than it takes to beat regular RPG, unless your going for lvl 99 every item in FF7 or something. It's a nice 1-2 month long grind to people who play the about 1-5 hours a day. It also gives you a chance to level other classes, but not to a ridiculous extent where you can grind out max level characters like crazy, but the timeframe for leveling does not discourage someone from starting an alt. |
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8/08/09 8:44:59 PM#146
There is no avoiding a grind in an mmo. A grind is repeating something over and over again just to advance or obtain better gear. Does not matter what path you take you are still going to grind. MMO's are paticular acceptable to grinding because there is an end. Once you get to the end there is nothing to do except grinding gear, pvp, whatever... If you do missions you will see that you have to kill x amount of mobs to be able to complete a certain mission. Or you will have to run to x location. There are more but it requires you do something. Outside of that, it is impossible.Yes litterally the only way of avoiding a grind is to stay lvl 1 forever. Who ever said Diablo was not a grind is horribly mistaken about it not being a grind because it was a grind. You have to advance through the whole game than you complete one difficulty, than you started all over again in a hardier setting. Once you complete the whole game you have three choices from how I see it. Rinse and repeat. Pvp forever. Doing the same diffculity over and over and over and over and over again for better gear.
The only way of avoiding a grind is making artificial AI. Meaning a real breathing and living world. Like Earth. Why? Because in MMO's you can only go as far as the game will allow you to do and there is only a limited amount of that. Unless of course they keep on coming out with expansions and adding more and more options to the game. ALL MMO'S ARE A GRIND because of this logic. However you can think it not as a grind because grinds are typically called boring. You can still be having fun but you are still grinding. |
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8/08/09 8:47:21 PM#147
So if you agree, how can you say that they build grinds? If you don't have to do it, then how is the game built around doing it? You never must grind. It's your choice, but you don't have to. I have obtained everything I desired in games without grinding. Did other players have it first? Of course, but I bet I had more fun getting there. Do I max out characters? yup, am I the first? Nope. But from the looks of these forums about how much everyone hates grinds, it seems like I have much more fun getting maxed out than many other players. I have memories of all night missions where I'd level up, and not even realize it. There's been times, as I'm sure others have had, where I'd click on my stats and realized they'd gone up, or that I had more points to use. Why? Because I don't grind. I just play. :D
P.S I don't discuss to win, I discuss to share thoughts.
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8/08/09 8:48:23 PM#148
Originally posted by Ginaz
I've never grinded in any single player rpg I've ever played. Why the hell would I do what you suggested??? Its not like I'm on a time schedule or competing against other players. I raised my skills by, you know, just playing the game. Anyone that grinds in a single player game is dumber than a chocolate Santa.
"Grinding" is a word that never surfaced during any PnP or CRPG gaming I've done in the past 30 or so years. It's a different generation and a different playstyle now, though. Macroing skill gain in Oblivion? Just... wow.
I'm quite sure that if you put the majority of the current generation of MMO gamers in an ADnD game, they would just sit in one spot and ask the DM to roll for encounters over and over. Then, after levelling to the cap without leaving the same 10 by 10 room, they'd ask if the level cap is going to be raised in the next expansion. |
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8/08/09 8:51:12 PM#149
For me I don't mind a grind if its fun, Sadly this makes 98% of korean mmorpgs a no go since their grinds are ludicrously long and increadbly boring. Its more the boring part. I have a feeling Aion will just be another korean grind mmorpg that copys world of warcraft. I've played it, and while I never got high leveled I can already see the korean grindyness coming out of Aion as low as level 10. Personally I was going to get Aion but after trying my friends beta account I decided it'd be a waste of my time/money. Probally going to buy Champions online, it looks like a much funner game with alot more to it. The fact there are no pre-set classes intrigues me. Have fun whoever decides to play aion, i'll be glad I didn't bother. Might pick it up later on when it'll be in a bargin bin for 10-20 bucks.. Prob in a year or 2, maybe less. |
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8/08/09 9:15:29 PM#150
Ziva- If you don't have to do it, then how is the game built around doing it? You never must grind. It's your choice, but you don't have to. Because the game itself provides it. The game is designed to have an artificial "end" that is designed to keep you on the "hook" to continue playing until there is new content thus furthering your game time played and increasing their profits. It's why it is there. Period. Game developers do not jsut toss in super elite hard to kill bosses like they do sidequests. They put way more time and resources and thought into the scenario to make it difficult. In order to beat it, you generally have to be at the top of your game. Meaning... levels, gear and skill. In order to achieve those, you grind. Now don't get me wrong, I don't want to argue semantics so I'm going to use a disclaimer and say YOU DON'T HAVE TO SEE END GAME IN ORDER TO- A)Have fun. B)Do just what other people say you have to do. You can take 2x, 10, even 1309486938302x as long to get to the same point. Yes. Technically. But although you do have free will to do that, it isn't how the game was designed. So while you can choose to play the game how you want, the point of ANY game is to see the end, and in order to do that you grind in order to achieve it, or you "cheat" and watch someone else do it who did grind to get there =P.
I have obtained everything I desired in games without grinding. Did other players have it first? Of course, but I bet I had more fun getting there. Do I max out characters? yup, am I the first? Nope. But from the looks of these forums about how much everyone hates grinds, it seems like I have much more fun getting maxed out than many other players. I cannot speak for you personally, or your personal playstyle. Not everyone can complete every game they play. Nothing wrong with it. Some are even happy with mediocre items, gear, etc because they had fun getting them. No problem with that either. Not saying what you do is wrong. Although I'm curious as to what game and how you maxed out your char without grinding...I'm sure something is missing, or you did grind but choose to use a different term for it /shrug.
I have memories of all night missions where I'd level up, and not even realize it. There's been times, as I'm sure others have had, where I'd click on my stats and realized they'd gone up, or that I had more points to use. All night missions? I'm unsure what that means. If you mean quests, especially quests that aren't a main storyline.. chances are that was grinding =P.
Why? Because I don't grind. I just play. So do people who grind =). That's all it is. Just playing. Redoing some content, or doing optional content because of either a lack of options (not enough members, maybe a needed ingredient that randomly drops off a mob, or shortage of coinage). Doing something new doesn't always mean you aren't grinding. Maybe by the true dictionary, but we aren't being technical or literal I hope. I'm using gaming terminologies. Like "I need to grind out these last reports for my boss" or "Gotta grind out my last few pages of homework before I can do that".
In short I think too many people bristle when you use the words "must" or even "grind". There are tons of things you do everyday that could be seen as grinding, and it shows in a lot of posts that I see when people use "must" or "have to" like I'm saying if you don't NCSoft is going to put a gun to your head until you do. This is not true. And while it might be MY definition of "grind" that seems off... please keep in mind that it is over 10 years of mmo gaming and keeping up with terminologies that got me there lol.
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