Originally posted by Emotep

If you don't like grinding, you shouldn't be playing RPGs, let alone MMORPGs.    It's like playing Halo and saying "I don't like shooting".

 

Grinding is a time honoured RPG tradition.  Why, I was just playing Final Fantasy VII on my PSP and I spend 3 hours grinding outside Wutai in order to level up my materia.

 

 

LOL...this is a typical Aion fanboi post regarding how gind heavy Aion is compared to other MMO's on the market. And before the Aion Fanboi's come on and start hating on me, I plan on playing Aion at launch, so I want this game to succceed. Just don't come on the message boards and pretend that Aion is NOT grind heavy. Have some integrity and call a spade a spade.

LOL Judge, that is exactly what this thread is saying.

Grinding IS the repetition of a task. I don't know about you, but that is mind numbingly boring to me.

Whether that is entertainment for you or not is not something I can decide upon. However, since I do nothing to the point of nauseum, it is not by definition grinding.

if I fish and catch 5 fish, then go join a raid and do 1 raid, then go to the tavern and talk for 30 minutes, then go and PvP for 30 more minutes...is this grinding? No, because I am not doing the same task repeatedly. Am I leveling, or gaining some form of experience? Yes. Is this how I play every game? Yes.

Therefore, I do not grind.

The point, is that I do nothing that is not entertaining. I do not play JUST to level. That's like reading a book just to finish it. I don't do that, either. I read it for my entertainment, if the book ceases to entertain me, I stop reading it. The same with a game. If of 80 levels the game ceases to entertain me at level 23, I stop playing.

Originally posted by Emotep

   It's like playing Halo and saying "I don't like shooting". 

 

You don't have to shoot in Halo, you can melee or stick people, or splatter 'em.

Aion's grind to max level will be nowhere near as bad as maybe FFXI or how WoW was in the beginning. People who complain about grind really just want to rush to max level and finish the game in one day. Perhaps some should not be playing mmos in the first place if grinding levels is an issue.

Originally posted by Soupism

Originally posted by twrule

Originally posted by Soupism

In my opinion, it is possible to make a mmo without a grind, but as is with any level based game, making such a game would be folly for a couple of reasons-

1)Player base. You couldn't keep players happy by removing any sort of grind (in respect to levels/xp) since the feeling of accomplisment would be lacking.

2)Revenue. Why would you, as a game creator, want to invest in a game that wouldn't bring any sort of profit margin since you would be hard pressed to develop a game that would attract that many people?

3)Longevity. The reason for grinds, and the difficulty to attain max level (which is always a goal) is to keep players playing.

Now don't get me wrong... anything IS possible... but are we wanting to argue for the sake of arguing, or argue the point of how well developed the game is? The depth and complexity have important roles in regards to whether you make a game worth paying for or not. And grinds usually are involved in that regards since you tend to create an economy, a hierarchy, and/or a challenge on a large scale to get many involved.

No one wants to spend $15/month to play Tetris.

That's why you don't make it level-based :).
 

Sure. Just don't expect revenue or a huge fan base lol. But for flavor of the month games, I guess it could work. Look how Aeria makes games and they are still level based, yet free to play. I just hope Aion is destined for something a bit better than that =P.

I don't see why no levels = small fanbase >.>.  Who goes out to buy an MMO and is like "This game has the standard level system right?  Oh good, had me worried there for a sec."  Good design, fun gameplay, and some polish are all it takes really.  SWG was doin fine back in the day, EvE is reasonably successful, but I think their particular system of advancement turns off a lot of potential players.  If done right, I don't see why it couldn't be big (looking to see if FFXIV will do just that).

Originally posted by ZivaDomini

Grinding IS the repetition of a task. I don't know about you, but that is mind numbingly boring to me.

Whether that is entertainment for you or not is not something I can decide upon. However, since I do nothing to the point of nauseum, it is not by definition grinding.

if I fish and catch 5 fish, then go join a raid and do 1 raid, then go to the tavern and talk for 30 minutes, then go and PvP for 30 more minutes...is this grinding? No, because I am not doing the same task repeatedly. Am I leveling, or gaining some form of experience? Yes. Is this how I play every game? Yes.

Therefore, I do not grind.

The point, is that I do nothing that is not entertaining. I do not play JUST to level. That's like reading a book just to finish it. I don't do that, either. I read it for my entertainment, if the book ceases to entertain me, I stop reading it. The same with a game. If of 80 levels the game ceases to entertain me at level 23, I stop playing.

 

I hear ya, I just couldn't be that ADD. When I played my lock, it was to raid. Server firsts. Progression. In order to do that, I "had" to farm mats, gold, cloth, a decent mount, shards etc. Could I have gotten away with not doing that? Maybe. But at what cost? To NOT be in a top end guild. To NOT see very hard and challenging fights? Not that I'm arguing with you. To each their own it's your subscription. I mean shit, if you WANT to do 15 things a day of only 20 minutes each per day, that's all you lol. But to hold that schedule for any sort of extended time would seem tooo much like a schedule based on life, and that was one of the things I was trying to avoid by playing the game in the first place =P.

I couldn't be bothered to go fishing to catch 5 fish.

I think fishing was my favorite thing. No one bothered me, just me, my goblin, and the water.

Don't get me wrong, sometimes I'd fish for 1-2 hours. But it was never boring, and I wasn't doing it to gain a level or anything. I genuinly was enjoying it. Chatting with passerby's.

By no means am I saying it's wrong to grind, or that it shouldn't be done. But it's not fair to say it MUST be done, as some are stating. I still maxed my character out in SWG in multiple professions and never did I grind. I did the theatre park missions, raids, PvP, I did the dancer profession and did architect. They were the less exciting ones, but I still enjoyed them. Giving people health buffs before they went out on missions.

But, I also don't care to be the top player, or in the top guild. Those are not of any interest to me. Just a few laughs while I play with friends in a game is all I need.

Originally posted by twrule

Originally posted by Soupism

Originally posted by twrule

Originally posted by Soupism

In my opinion, it is possible to make a mmo without a grind, but as is with any level based game, making such a game would be folly for a couple of reasons-

1)Player base. You couldn't keep players happy by removing any sort of grind (in respect to levels/xp) since the feeling of accomplisment would be lacking.

2)Revenue. Why would you, as a game creator, want to invest in a game that wouldn't bring any sort of profit margin since you would be hard pressed to develop a game that would attract that many people?

3)Longevity. The reason for grinds, and the difficulty to attain max level (which is always a goal) is to keep players playing.

Now don't get me wrong... anything IS possible... but are we wanting to argue for the sake of arguing, or argue the point of how well developed the game is? The depth and complexity have important roles in regards to whether you make a game worth paying for or not. And grinds usually are involved in that regards since you tend to create an economy, a hierarchy, and/or a challenge on a large scale to get many involved.

No one wants to spend $15/month to play Tetris.

That's why you don't make it level-based :).
 

Sure. Just don't expect revenue or a huge fan base lol. But for flavor of the month games, I guess it could work. Look how Aeria makes games and they are still level based, yet free to play. I just hope Aion is destined for something a bit better than that =P.

 

I don't see why no levels = small fanbase >.>.  Who goes out to buy an MMO and is like "This game has the standard level system right?  Oh good, had me worried there for a sec."  Good design, fun gameplay, and some polish are all it takes really.  SWG was doin fine back in the day, EvE is reasonably successful, but I think their particular system of advancement turns off a lot of potential players.  If done right, I don't see why it couldn't be big (looking to see if FFXIV will do just that).

Because the majority of players play fantasy based mmorpgs for the sense of getting that top level. The best gear. The most money. Able to craft anything in their field. Largest collection of mounts. Of pets. You name it, people want it. It's a respite from the real world where you have to deal with the economy, or parents, school or a job. Even a wife and/or kids.

I don't know ANYONE that goes out to buy a MMO and says "if it has levels I don't want it". SWG did very well because of the source of the game. Star Wars. Matrix Online had a lot of excitement. I don't hear shit about that game anymore lol. And EVE? Shit most people who play that also play level based MMOs and raid, grind, or craft hehehe.

Also it isn't about just getting the highest level and thinking "the game is over yay I beat it!!" but it's more of a "finally now the game has really started". 

Originally posted by ZivaDomini

I think fishing was my favorite thing. No one bothered me, just me, my goblin, and the water.

Don't get me wrong, sometimes I'd fish for 1-2 hours. But it was never boring, and I wasn't doing it to gain a level or anything. I genuinly was enjoying it. Chatting with passerby's.

 

By no means am I saying it's wrong to grind, or that it shouldn't be done. But it's not fair to say it MUST be done, as some are stating. I still maxed my character out in SWG in multiple professions and never did I grind. I did the theatre park missions, raids, PvP, I did the dancer profession and did architect. They were the less exciting ones, but I still enjoyed them. Giving people health buffs before they went out on missions.

But, I also don't care to be the top player, or in the top guild. Those are not of any interest to me. Just a few laughs while I play with friends in a game is all I need.

Oh this isn't to single anyone out. It's just more people than not grind. It isn't to say "grinding" is bad either. Some people find things to do that is very fun. Dailies for instance. Lots of people love doing dailies every day. Same dailies everyday. That's a grind. Just a loose term to describe some effort in order to attain a goal. If you fished from 1-300, in a week,, or for the majority of your game played time, that's grinding it. Doesn't mean you didn't enjoy it, just means you did it =P.

Originally posted by Cammy

Originally posted by thexrated

Soupism, I am not interested in what you view as what counts as RPG or etymology of the word. My replies were in direct response to the OP's ignorant post. Perhaps, you should read that first?

Also, none of those games you mentioned require you to grind (as losely translated to the repetition of same content) unless you choose to. You can beat them with just playing through the content.

 

If you read the entire thread, you would realize that the OP was talking about MMO's and not RPGs... soup's reply was to try and clarifiy that but obviously even that went over your head. 

 

 

No I wasn't.

Final Fantasy VII is a single player RPG.

Originally posted by Emotep

If you don't like grinding, you shouldn't be playing RPGs, let alone MMORPGs.    It's like playing Halo and saying "I don't like shooting".

 

Grinding is a time honoured RPG tradition.  Why, I was just playing Final Fantasy VII on my PSP and I spend 3 hours grinding outside Wutai in order to level up my materia.

 

 

I'll agree that MMORPGs are almost exclusively grinds, its the most efficient carrot-chasing method that developers have for ensuring that people continue to fork over sub fees every month.

You're completely off base regarding RPGs, however.  Sure Final Fantasy games are grindtastic, which is one reason I stopped playing them, but most other RPGs aren't grinds unless you choose to make them so. 

The Witcher wasn't a grind, the Elder Scrolls games aren't grinds, Fallout wasn't a grind, Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights weren't grinds, and I'm sure the upcoming Dragon Age isn't going to be a grind.  Yes there is character advancement and level gain in all these games, but it happens in the background and is overwhelmed by the ass-kicking narratives and the opportunity to explore huge, fully realized worlds. 

A lot of stat-monkeys probably turn single player RPGs into personal grinds, but that's their own idiocy, as the games are clearly designed to be stories first, else they wouldn't have so much time, effort, and money  put into the narrative, voice acting, and assorted bells and whistles.  Grind your materia all you want, it doesn't mean RPGs as a whole are unimaginative timesinks like FF.

Originally posted by veritas_X

Originally posted by Emotep

If you don't like grinding, you shouldn't be playing RPGs, let alone MMORPGs.    It's like playing Halo and saying "I don't like shooting".

 

Grinding is a time honoured RPG tradition.  Why, I was just playing Final Fantasy VII on my PSP and I spend 3 hours grinding outside Wutai in order to level up my materia.

 

 

 

I'll agree that MMORPGs are almost exclusively grinds, its the most efficient carrot-chasing method that developers have for ensuring that people continue to fork over sub fees every month.

You're completely off base regarding RPGs, however.  Sure Final Fantasy games are grindtastic, which is one reason I stopped playing them, but most other RPGs aren't grinds unless you choose to make them so. 

The Witcher wasn't a grind, the Elder Scrolls games aren't grinds, Fallout wasn't a grind, Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights weren't grinds, and I'm sure the upcoming Dragon Age isn't going to be a grind.  Yes there is character advancement and level gain in all these games, but it happens in the background and is overwhelmed by the ass-kicking narratives and the opportunity to explore huge, fully realized worlds. 

A lot of stat-monkeys probably turn single player RPGs into personal grinds, but that's their own idiocy, as the games are clearly designed to be stories first, else they wouldn't have so much time, effort, and money  put into the narrative, voice acting, and assorted bells and whistles.  Grind your materia all you want, it doesn't mean RPGs as a whole are unimaginative timesinks like FF.

 

This was probably the best post to this thread yet.

But you can't simply say that a repeated action is grinding. In doing that EVERYTHING is a grind. Blinking, breathing, going to work, eating ect ect.

That definition is too shallow. Which is why the definition add the monotonum aspect. Because repeated actions aren't grinding, they're a necessary part of life. You MUST repeat actions. However, doing so to nauseum is the grinding aspect because you're not longer enjoying it, you're doing what you dislike to reach a goal that you do like.

Originally posted by Soupism

LOL Judge, that is exactly what this thread is saying.

(gah...sometimes I wish I could just draw a picture for some of you)

Point is, the OP is attempting to downplay the heavy grid that Aion aparently is, compared to other AAA MMO's, by staing that "if you dont like grinding you shouldn't play RPGs", assuming me means MMO's.

ATTENTION: AION IS A HEAVY GRINDING MMO COMPARED TO OTHER MMO's

The OP is implying that its ok for Aion to be a heavy grind because "if you dont like grinding" you are not worthy to playing the game.

Aion fails to impress many because of this (and other) aspect.

Yeah for the last few pages the topic of RPG being single player has become apparent. I wasn't aware however that Aion was also a single player rpg as opposed to a mmorpg meant for a never ending age.

While yes, you are absolutely right, single player rpgs are not about grinds, although you can, as a player decide to do it. Single player rpgs aren't designed to bring in subscription fees or have any sort of end game, or pvp and also are usually shelved after they are beaten.

Isn't that off topic for Aion though? =P

I don't think Aion's grind is any worse. All MMOs have a heavy grind really.. and then once the level cap is raised they go back to lower the grind ect. WoW had a heavy grind untill the expansions and stuff and they went back to make it easier to level. It's natural.

Besides as long as you are having fun, who cares how long it takes.. that's my opinion.

Originally posted by ZivaDomini

But you can't simply say that a repeated action is grinding. In doing that EVERYTHING is a grind. Blinking, breathing, going to work, eating ect ect.

That definition is too shallow. Which is why the definition add the monotonum aspect. Because repeated actions aren't grinding, they're a necessary part of life. You MUST repeat actions. However, doing so to nauseum is the grinding aspect because you're not longer enjoying it, you're doing what you dislike to reach a goal that you do like.

 

 

Er, that's an argument of semantics. We aren't talking about necessities. We are talking about chipping away the coal to get to the diamond.

For instance, you want a mount. Horse, bird, dragon whatever. It costs 15k(whatever currency you want to use). You don't grind, so you really do not have any marketable skills that made you rich, but due to the various things you have done, you have maybe 5k. Now, you WANT 10k because you WANT that 15k mount. How do you get it? Just do your daily routine until another year passes and hope you have enough by then? Or do you go killing the same mobs over and over in hopes that they drop that item that you can sell for a few thousand? How about "farm" (which is a form of grinding) a specific material that you could sell in bulk for more (insert currency) than the npc trader offers for it?

Or we can use pvp if you like. You want that item that costs 10k Abyss Points (Aion) or Honor Points (WOW) but only have 4k. Same scenario. How do you get it?

You "GRIND" it out.

Go watch Deadliest Catch. You'll probably get the best reference to the word from those crazy ass fishermen talking about "grinding low numbers" to hit the motherlode or "land on the crab".

LOL there is no other way to explain how people use a loosely used term when you want to take it in a literal sense.

Originally posted by veritas_X

I'll agree that MMORPGs are almost exclusively grinds, its the most efficient carrot-chasing method that developers have for ensuring that people continue to fork over sub fees every month.

You're completely off base regarding RPGs, however.  Sure Final Fantasy games are grindtastic, which is one reason I stopped playing them, but most other RPGs aren't grinds unless you choose to make them so. 

The Witcher wasn't a grind, the Elder Scrolls games aren't grinds, Fallout wasn't a grind, Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights weren't grinds, and I'm sure the upcoming Dragon Age isn't going to be a grind.  Yes there is character advancement and level gain in all these games, but it happens in the background and is overwhelmed by the ass-kicking narratives and the opportunity to explore huge, fully realized worlds. 

A lot of stat-monkeys probably turn single player RPGs into personal grinds, but that's their own idiocy, as the games are clearly designed to be stories first, else they wouldn't have so much time, effort, and money  put into the narrative, voice acting, and assorted bells and whistles.  Grind your materia all you want, it doesn't mean RPGs as a whole are unimaginative timesinks like FF.

 

Excellent post. 

My only comment... RPG =/= MMO. But I agree with everything you said.

 The last two posts hit the nail directly on the head.... 

Exactly my opinion as well.

Good work soup & Nat (so no one is confused) ;)

Originally posted by JudgeRoyBean

Originally posted by Soupism

LOL Judge, that is exactly what this thread is saying.

 

(gah...sometimes I wish I could just draw a picture for some of you)

Point is, the OP is attempting to downplay the heavy grid that Aion aparently is, compared to other AAA MMO's, by staing that "if you dont like grinding you shouldn't play RPGs", assuming me means MMO's.

ATTENTION: AION IS A HEAVY GRINDING MMO COMPARED TO OTHER MMO's

The OP is implying that its ok for Aion to be a heavy grind because "if you dont like grinding" you are not worthy to playing the game.

Aion fails to impress many because of this (and other) aspect.

I didn't mention Aion anywhere.

The website did for you.

Aion

General Discussion >> If you don't like grinding, you shouldn't be playing RPGs >> Reply

It's all right there. See what kind of beast you created? =P

Originally posted by Cammy

Originally posted by veritas_X

I'll agree that MMORPGs are almost exclusively grinds, its the most efficient carrot-chasing method that developers have for ensuring that people continue to fork over sub fees every month.

You're completely off base regarding RPGs, however.  Sure Final Fantasy games are grindtastic, which is one reason I stopped playing them, but most other RPGs aren't grinds unless you choose to make them so. 

The Witcher wasn't a grind, the Elder Scrolls games aren't grinds, Fallout wasn't a grind, Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights weren't grinds, and I'm sure the upcoming Dragon Age isn't going to be a grind.  Yes there is character advancement and level gain in all these games, but it happens in the background and is overwhelmed by the ass-kicking narratives and the opportunity to explore huge, fully realized worlds. 

A lot of stat-monkeys probably turn single player RPGs into personal grinds, but that's their own idiocy, as the games are clearly designed to be stories first, else they wouldn't have so much time, effort, and money  put into the narrative, voice acting, and assorted bells and whistles.  Grind your materia all you want, it doesn't mean RPGs as a whole are unimaginative timesinks like FF.

 

 

Excellent post. 

 

My only comment... RPG =/= MMO. But I agree with everything you said.

Funny,  I was just grinding Agility Points in Elder Scrolls: Oblivion by bunny hopping for 25 minutes.

Originally posted by Emotep

Originally posted by Cammy

Originally posted by veritas_X

I'll agree that MMORPGs are almost exclusively grinds, its the most efficient carrot-chasing method that developers have for ensuring that people continue to fork over sub fees every month.

You're completely off base regarding RPGs, however.  Sure Final Fantasy games are grindtastic, which is one reason I stopped playing them, but most other RPGs aren't grinds unless you choose to make them so. 

The Witcher wasn't a grind, the Elder Scrolls games aren't grinds, Fallout wasn't a grind, Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights weren't grinds, and I'm sure the upcoming Dragon Age isn't going to be a grind.  Yes there is character advancement and level gain in all these games, but it happens in the background and is overwhelmed by the ass-kicking narratives and the opportunity to explore huge, fully realized worlds. 

A lot of stat-monkeys probably turn single player RPGs into personal grinds, but that's their own idiocy, as the games are clearly designed to be stories first, else they wouldn't have so much time, effort, and money  put into the narrative, voice acting, and assorted bells and whistles.  Grind your materia all you want, it doesn't mean RPGs as a whole are unimaginative timesinks like FF.

 

 

Excellent post. 

 

My only comment... RPG =/= MMO. But I agree with everything you said.

 

Funny,  I was just grinding Agility Points in Elder Scrolls: Oblivion by bunny hopping for 25 minutes.

Which is what I said: you chose to do that for whatever reason.  Oblivion is not about bunny hopping grinds, its about an epic story.  If you want to reduce it to bunny-hopping, great, but trying to parley that into 'all RPGs are grinds' is absolute bullshit.

Life is a grind for most people and many of them complain too. So they shouldn't live?

The fact is, if a game is a grind for some people, but at the end of the day they still get some fun out of it even though they complain, then let them do it.

Why tell others what they should or should not do?