Originally posted by cludinsk

doesn't get more sandboxy then Eve /obv

 

 

 

Well, sadly....that may be true as far as "newer" (yes, I know EVE wasn't born yesterday) games are concerned, but....I, for one, don't find outer space very compelling. And while I do HAVE an EVE account and have mined my way to a wealth of ISK, it still doesn't quite fill the void left by the absence of the old days in Ultima Online.

And to Dana Massey I have to say.....

That was probably the most heartfelt, well-written, most meaningful account of what a sandbox game is....that I have ever read in all my life. I think it was probably the best thing I've seen that you've written. :)  And yes, I too got teary-eyed remembering UO.  Thanks for posting that. =D

With a smidge of UI, chat, and minor content updates Darkfall fills all your requirements.

Right now the only thing to do is PvP... but already they have added player housing. It's looking more and more like an FPS version of SWG all the time.

EDIT: obviously I meant pre-CU SWG. Anything after I don't consider worth mentioning.

Originally posted by Stradden

In his weekly column, Dana Massey looks at the nostalgia people feel for classic sandbox MMOs and talks about ways that developers could truly re-capture their popularity.

What is a sandbox MMO, anyway? We often hear laments of old time gamers who miss the days of old-school Ultima Online and complain that no one has dared to properly fill that void. In the decade-plus since UO's launch, the market has been dominated by level based games. As cries for a sandbox MMO continue to grow louder, I wonder if it has not been so long that the memory of what they truly were has begun to fade. So, this week, I examine what, to me, was the essence of a sandbox MMO experience and how I'd like to see one built in this modern era.

Being a true sandbox MMO is about more than just mechanics. It's a virtual world where people can truly settle into a role. It's not about combat mechanics, quests, or storyline. It's about freedom.

Read Dana Massey Asks Why Not Build a Proper Sandbox?

I have three letters to describe this entire article - QFT.

Excellent read and oh so true.

I never understand why everytime someone brings up a sandbox game it HAS to be ffa pvp.  UO is so much more then a pvp game.

besides Ultima, the only true sandbox mmo Ive come across was Star Wars Galaxies. Both were designed by the same core group of developers like Ralph Koster.

The sandbox attempts recently have all forgotten to make a game not focused soley on combat. sandbox means virtual world with total freedom.

Im soooo sick of mmo's where combat is everything and quests are xp fillers to slow me down.

I would pay $100 a monthly subscription fee to anyone that could make a proper sandbox mmo

I remember beta tesing the first MMORPG, Meridian59. And I remember doing the same for Uo, EVE, and many others since then.  And I think that the sandbox aspect is what made UO so freaking popular, and why Meridian 59 fell in the dust. Meridian was all about leveling up, and then they introduced PVP and it trashed the entire game. With UO's open enviroment, a level 30 toon could join in on a quest with many level 50-70 toons and still be a benefit. In most games now, the level 30 would just get smacked down in the first 3 minutes and quit out of frustration.  I truly would sove to see something like UO brought back, (I have a private srever app for it sitting around somewhere, have one for Meridian too for that matter  lol,) I was always suprised that Bethesda never took Oblivion and made it at least LAN capable.  It would totally rock with expanded terretories, a combination of some of the previous versions, and added bosses and challenges what would require entire armies of people working together.  Imagine being in an army of 100 people laying siege on a castle or wraithe gate. God how I dream of a game like that.  Currently I play PWI and am happy on the PVE servers. PVP still exists there, but it's a choice. Still a level-based game though.

~Sylen

Have you tried Wurm Online or A Tale In The Desert IV?

Loved this article, thank you!! I hope another sandbox is made soonish..

I was hoping Everquest (before Luclin,) or Daoc (before toa,) would be mentioned, everquest is a perfect example of a making the soup, but not stirring it for us.. And Daoc did a perfect 1v1v1 model pvp style..

Games like that just are not made anymore, everything is a WoW or lineage 2 clone in some way or another.

I feel the same way about Asheron's Call.

Great Article.

Originally posted by nekollx

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by nekollx

Originally posted by wolfmann

A friggin to the men!

 

Sandbox ain't free whack-a-mole... It's a world, where you can be or do anything, and the world doesnt revolve around combat, but the people inhabiting that world, be it the fisherman, the poet, the ministrel the uncle Ben farmer and yes the triggerhappy soldier/goon.

 

[snip]

 

[snip]

 

my personal solution would be to have a "wanted" system. Not simple "this guy killed x players" but based in on how often and how soon the same body is killed to increase their rep. Put a ingame gold reward on their head. And here's the kicker.

 

NPC bounty hunters.

 

Then the gankers can't just avoid other players they have to avoid a persistent, stalking, in game presence.

 

I'mage those UO guards catching sigh of you and sending a hunting party after your ass for the next hour. (of ingame time so even logging out wont help you need to avoid them for a hour, in game)

ingame gold reward:

hum i have a 6bajillion gold reward for my death, hey (insert your alt or your friends name) let me put my gear in the bank and would you cut my head off please?

yay im 6 bajillion gold richer

NPC bounty hunters? ooo good loot and good xp or skill points or wtv

either way pvp limitations have to be placed to avoid gankfests like darkfall

SWG pre cu had the covert/overt and the TEF system to regulate pvp

Eve has empire space and security status for players and systems where concord will punish whoever scraps the paint of my ship. (i didnt say protect, i said punish)

and you could even completely remove pvp for the "normal" guild but they cant have a guild hall/castle or something, if they want that caslt they KNOW they can be flagged for war with another faction or guild or wtv

all in all if you want to add pvp one must put regulations but not limit it

in my opinion the TEF system was the best "control" over pvp

if you where covert imperial, you KNEW that if you touched those rebel soldiers PC or NPC you would be flaged for pvp. so in the end it is YOUR CHOICE that you willingly took to make yourself atackable by any rebel in the area for x amount of time. you also could put yourself overt, meaning you willingly put yourself to be attackable or be able to attack and rebel you see.

hell if you where covert and you helped an imperial you would be flaged open for pvp.

that is by far the best gankfest control you could have in a sandbox

Originally posted by nekollx

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by nekollx

Originally posted by wolfmann

A friggin to the men!

 

Sandbox ain't free whack-a-mole... It's a world, where you can be or do anything, and the world doesnt revolve around combat, but the people inhabiting that world, be it the fisherman, the poet, the ministrel the uncle Ben farmer and yes the triggerhappy soldier/goon.

 

the problem is MMO players haveen gotten a lot more...well

They have become bigger jerks.

Back in UO i was stalked by PKers while i was just trying to mape the world and cut lumber. And that was the good old days. In WoW (which isnt nearly as sand box ) you have people camping corses and hiding spies cross faction.

 

Now imagine that in full sandbox?

 

*shudder*

 

That's a BIG problem, how to do sandbox without feeding the world to the trolls.

 

Simply can't be done, without some limitations on PvP. Every system I've seen that doesn't use HARD CODED(server side) limits on who can attack who, has ended up being a gankfest.  Its simply the nature of the Beast.  Griefers and gankers are WAY too "creative" in finding ways around any system thats not hard coded. They then eventually drive off the very type of people that a real sand box MUST have to evolve into a living breathing world.

 

my personal solution would be to have a "wanted" system. Not simple "this guy killed x players" but based in on how often and how soon the same body is killed to increase their rep. Put a ingame gold reward on their head. And here's the kicker.

 

NPC bounty hunters.

 

Then the gankers can't just avoid other players they have to avoid a persistent, stalking, in game presence.

 

I'mage those UO guards catching sigh of you and sending a hunting party after your ass for the next hour. (of ingame time so even logging out wont help you need to avoid them for a hour, in game)

Interesting ideas, but that just gets you in to an "arms race" with the gankers/griefers.  Massive bounties on their heads, just leads to them having friends/allies(or alts on another account) killing them, and they split the bounty(or keep it all if alts).  NPC bounty hunters, leads to other problems. Look at the evolution of Concord in Eve as an example.  Its an unfortunate reality, that griefers/gankers WILL spend what ever amount of time/talent/experience/intelligence required to find the flaws in a system.  Even a basic flag system can be worked around, unless you take certain precautions. That was demonstrated in the first year or so on the WoW PvE servers. Rogues in stealth would find some low level using an aoe ability, and get hit by it, thus flagging the user for PvP...Gank.  Non rogues would jump into the aoe and get hit.  Another OLD stunt was to stand right on a NPC quest giver, so that you click on them...It just goes on and on...

spot on!

Originally posted by Wraithone

Interesting ideas, but that just gets you in to an "arms race" with the gankers/griefers.  Massive bounties on their heads, just leads to them having friends/allies(or alts on another account) killing them, and they split the bounty(or keep it all if alts).  NPC bounty hunters, leads to other problems. Look at the evolution of Concord in Eve as an example.  Its an unfortunate reality, that griefers/gankers WILL spend what ever amount of time/talent/experience/intelligence required to find the flaws in a system.  Even a basic flag system can be worked around, unless you take certain precautions. That was demonstrated in the first year or so on the WoW PvE servers. Rogues in stealth would find some low level using an aoe ability, and get hit by it, thus flagging the user for PvP...Gank.  Non rogues would jump into the aoe and get hit.  Another OLD stunt was to stand right on a NPC quest giver, so that you click on them...It just goes on and on...

 

Ain't the Human race grand? As I read a few days ago on this site - no wonder no alien race has given us warp drive.

"Weaseling out of things is what separates us from the animals  - except the weasels." - Homer Simpson

Originally posted by theJexster

Great read, made me a bit misty eyed too. I also plan to copy it and spread it to others. I have loved both types of MMOs, sandbox and theme park, but I have only felt one kind, sandbox, in the put of my stomach. For me thats the difference. The sense of mystery and adventure when you log in and feel lost and afraid in a large open world is priceless.

I get that every time I wake up.

Originally posted by thorosuch

Have you tried Wurm Online or A Tale In The Desert IV?

This is a great point - there are indie MMOs out there who are trying different things, trying to be sandbox-y, but are ignored by the majority of players. Perhaps they aren't pretty enough, or don't have a major franchise to hang their hat on or something, but they die out or only just struggle on because they can't attract an audience.

Also, for all the talk of how good UO and pre-NGE SWG were, they had huge flaws. And I find it funny that a lot of players in this thread say, "We want total freedom! ... but please turn off FFA PVP because that's a little too free."

I've been playing Wurm Online for a few months now, and aside from a shoddy combat system, the game is actually quite amazing. It has terraforming (!) and mining actual tunnels into rock, so you can even shape the world around you as well as build on it.

But yes, I am dying to see another AAA sandbox title hit the floor. Wurm is an indy game in the worst way possible. As much as I love the game, I fear every day the developer will do something else to screw it up.

You know i do miss the sandbox games i played. But to me it's not only a skill related thing, a sandbox game is a game that offers more then simple leveling/combat mechanics and give you something else to do for when you don't want to actually go level and group. you could go out harvesting, exploring, fishing for that matter.

I for one miss the days of games like UO, Asherons Call for that because they offered this and gave me total freedom as to what i can do.

Games in recent ememory that have come close to offering this was Everquest II, WoW, Vanguard, SWG. They where not fully sandbox but where really close.

The only game i can see comming in the near future that offers something similar is Fallen Earth. I for one can't wait for it.

Out of curiosity, why is UO talked about in the past tense?  It still exists, it's still actively played.

Originally posted by maplestone

Out of curiosity, why is UO talked about in the past tense?  It still exists, it's still actively played.

Excellent article. And what Maple says is true. I still play it myself.

It's long in the tooth, but the heart of what made it great is still there. Unfortunately, most people can't get by the outdated elements of a game nearly a decade old, and are to used to having a very linear progression with spoon-fed content. It's a byproduct of advancement and mass marketing, I suppose.

But world is still there to enjoy. It's complex, diverse, and still interesting, even for it's age.

Originally posted by maplestone

Out of curiosity, why is UO talked about in the past tense?  It still exists, it's still actively played.

Perhaps because the graphics are PAINFULLY outdated these days? Not to mention that UO never really recovered from so many people leaving, after it became a gankfest.

/boycot

Originally posted by thorosuch

Have you tried Wurm Online or A Tale In The Desert IV?

This.

It's not that sandbox MMO's are not out there. Its that players only pay attention to big money development houses.

Originally posted by maplestone

Out of curiosity, why is UO talked about in the past tense?  It still exists, it's still actively played.

There are a couple reason.  UO is very old, it's combat system is outdated compared to newer games and graphics are way outdated.  Probably the biggest reason is many of us have probably already played the game for years.  There is only so much even with new content you can do in a game.  I try to go back a couple times a year but after playing on and off for probably going on 7 years now there is nothing new to do.  Sure there are new places to explore but nothing new to do.

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

And since he (eric) went there, I'll follow up using your quote that he exhibits the typical qualities of the Bush era administration of shaking your finger and proclaiming to the world someone is wrong but not having any idea why.

Uh... whatever.

I find using UO as a positive example of anything to be laughable. It was a design *failure*, not a success. It had 2 things going for it when it released: It was Ultima, and it had no real competition (outside of the barely heard of Meridian 59).

The "open pvp" many people tout as being so wonderful is actually the cause of its demise. Reading Raph's blogs about the subject easily show this to be true, even among the die hard believers there. And Trammel came too late, after half of the playerbase had already left for something more "structured" (EQ1) since there was now competition.

Here's a quote from one of the comments to one of his recent blog posts:

"Trammel also created issues with the social game fabric of UO though, so in effect, while it solved the pk problem, it did it by sacrificing other genuinely good parts of the game as well. It was the right decision, but it was lamentable that that was the case.

And that’s kinda the problem. The solution was to invalidate the situation, not to actually solve it. And Trammel caused a number of issues in the long term as well, both in terms of community building an in terms of economy. UO actually needed PKs in some number in order to function the way it was designed, they just needed to be on the losing side, not the constantly winning side.

I’m also not sure that UO would have done better had there been a Trammel earlier on. UO’s pve game has always been horrible shallow, and the community ties wouldn’t have developed in the same way had Trammel been there from the start. I think they would’ve genuinely been weaker, and I think that would’ve caused it to spiral downwards much sooner. In order for sandbox games to have been bigger in the market place they would’ve needed to be more compelling on more levels than just not having to worry about getting ganked when you’re walking outside the guard zone. "
 

http://www.raphkoster.com/2009/05/04/how-david-beats-goliath-a-lesson-in-game-design/

Every single example of "Freedom" listed for UO I've seen duplicated many times in the level based games. UO lacked direction. It didn't create "freedom".  You could "do what you wanted" (within the rules of the game, aka, you couldn't drill a hole to the center of the planet, nor cause everyone else to vanish) because that's all there was to do. People grouped in dungeons.... wow, they do that in every game... they PvP'd.. that's extremely common as well. They ground skills (Sounds like leveling to me!).... happens in almost every MMORPG...

Sure, I can't "Forget" how to pick herbs in WoW to learn how to mine like you could in UO, but I actually think that's a GOOD thing.