Originally posted by Ozmodan

Originally posted by eric_w66

As usual, Dana Massey is wrong on so many things that I wonder if he also believes that the Obama healthcare plan is going to be a glowing success story.

He keeps confusing "freedom" with "lack of direction".

Just because UO lacked any "end game" content and players had to resort to PKing to do something new doesn't mean it's the holy grail of gaming.

And he paints with far too wide a brush the point about levels mattering in EQ1 to mean that every game with levels has to use exponential power curves. I've played plenty of MUD's that didn't. And they weren't "sandbox"... They were far more like EQ1 than UO.

And his point about a writer in UO actually being a WRITER in real life... well hell, take out the "RPG" bit from the name why don't ya. Perhaps SOME PEOPLE might want to PLAY a ROLE where they have skills in GAME where they don't in REAL LIFE (you know, writing... poetry... picking berries.... SWORDPLAY....MAGIC USING...)...

And most of his points are already done in the level based games anyways. Berry picking? WoW has that. Fishing? Got that too.

And heck, you can't even (legally) MACRO those abilities like everyone did in UO...

 

Here you go again.  You try to say the article writer is so wrong, yet you completely forget to provide any reasons why he is wrong.    I have to give your post the most nonsensical one of the day.  I don't even know why anyone bothers to read your posts, they never make any sense.

Problem with all these developers out there, they are afraid players can't handle a non grind game.  The genre has so conditioned players to expect such.

The Darkfall kids make me laugh, they think Darkfall is a sandbox game when it is strictly a pvp game with the elements needed to make it a true sandbox mostly missing.  I would not hold your breath waiting for Aventurine to add them either.

And since he (eric) went there, I'll follow up using your quote that he exhibits the typical qualities of the Bush era administration of shaking your finger and proclaiming to the world someone is wrong but not having any idea why.

What if...

someone said they could do a sandbox game (set in space with twitch control), would you pay a premium fee, maybe even contribute in the development phase?

I whole heartedly agree with Dana: freedom is boon that major devs/pubs aren't willing to give us. As such, a game developed with freedom in mind would need extra help from the player base.

After searching the web for articles and forums about demographics/trends/etc, I came to the conclusion that a such an indy game as I described could only bring in between 5 to 20K subscribers without major help from a partner. Seing as this would take 12 to 18 months to happen, $15/month might not be enough to pay the bills and offset the development cost.

Would YOU be one of players?  Would you go ahead and contribute to it?

Since I love sandbox and I love space I would. In fact I'm doing it.

I forgot to mention I hate two things about EVE and can't bring myself to play it:

- you don't control your ship, flying is too good to do without in a space game

- you need to play it for ages before you can be competitive

It's a great game in many many things but those two totally ruin it for me.

To me Vendetta Online is a great sandbox game.  Genre: sci-fi, Play style: twitch, Era: future, Play Area: the known galaxy.  As a subscribed player I've written 46 missions to date, had them peer reviewed, and implemented to the game server.  If that's not sandbox I don't know what is.

It was a complete different time when UO came alive it was also first mmo so like the OP and so many other ex/UO players that started in first years it was your FIRST LOVE and you want that back.

Dont get me wrong thats ok but as so many ex/UO players you can´t get out of past step out of this ancient Box your stuck now for so many years nomatter how hard new game developers try you guys keep WHINING yes OP you to and you just want UO back only with a game engine from today with grafhics of today.

You comepare Darkfall with UO rediculous, you and so many other ex/UO keep thinking Darkfall should be or you thought it would be UO2 again rediculous it was already clear years ago that Darkfall would be more like Asheron calls-shadowbane and moddeled after morrowind-oblivion with some ideas of UO.

Darkfall is to hardcore and focus only on pvp and full loot are you DAFT  OP?, or did you not follow Darkfall for years have been living under a rock , or just follow the MASS trolls and haters who all dont undertsand darkfall at all and are just to carebear?

I think as i read your blog you just blindly jump into Darkfall  and just thought it would be UO only with better grafhics and not in 2D and then you find out its not your TOY you got back in 90s and throw it into trashcan becouse you want UO2 not Darkfall.

That you wasted 50 bucks on Darkfall is your own fault lol.

I laugh at you guys who just to narrowminded and stubborn to chance and see how good Darkfall realy is no you want a medicocre fluff game ala UO but with grafhics of 2009.

Well keep waiting this will never happen UO was in beginning also flawed and had his problems plus it was not that good as you claim it to be AC was by far superior to UO btw:)

Well have fun with your next game im back to Darkfall!

Well I am glad you enjoy Darkfall Evasia.  But let's not get confused, Darkfall is far from being a sandbox game, not even close.   There is little choice associated with Darkfall.   

Despite some people's attempt to make UO a pvp game it was far more than that.  Pvp was actually a fairly rare occurance unless you specifically went looking for it all the time, even in Felucca.

Very good article which nailed the core of what "sandbox" means i.e freedom and freedom includes non-combat options.

Freedom also requires some control of PvP. I'm one of those who tried UO for one night and left for EQ because of the constant ganking. If I'd stayed longer maybe I would have got into it.

laresloci
"Does sandbox = anarchy ? I guess we have to look at the real world before we build a fantasy one. No?"

Exactly.

Also it seemsat least possible to me that a successful sandbox that provided players with enough tools to generate their own content could make more money in the long run because the game isn't constantly having to create and pay for new "endgame" content to shovel into the screaming maws of their addicted lab-rats.

wormywyrm
"Sandboxes are hard to make though...(snip)...When you add new mechanics, those mechanics can foul up old mechanics. Hence its a lot easier to create a game with few mechanics and a lot of content... And a linear mmo is all about content, where a sandbox is all about mechanics. So its simply harder, and theres more room for error, and people are scared... They all want a polished game, because polish is a big part of what made WoW successful."

Very well put.

I cannot wait for the day when a truely epic sandbox game is developed, the world is empty of buildings adn everything is made completly from players. Then land will be a blank canvass and each server-world will differ from the next as every town is built from the ground up.

Even items could be created and designed by the plyer themselves with in reason.

Originally posted by Ozmodan

Well I am glad you enjoy Darkfall Evasia.  But let's not get confused, Darkfall is far from being a sandbox game, not even close.   There is little choice associated with Darkfall.   

Despite some people's attempt to make UO a pvp game it was far more than that.  Pvp was actually a fairly rare occurance unless you specifically went looking for it all the time, even in Felucca.

 

Lol do you even know what a sandbox is and again as so many im almost 100% positive you have never played Darkfall.

You hate hardcore pvp thats mainly focussed on that and you guys then say its no sandbox WTF:(

Btw Darkfall have plenty od choices what you wanne be or wanne do i dont get it why you anti-Darkfall trolls keep saying this?

While I never played UO, the sandbox game that Dana described is the type of game I would enjoy and I think what I have been looking for.

I played Horizons (now it's called Istaria) when it was originally released, and although it is a level based game, it had a lot of the same feel that Dana described.  There were world-wide initiatives that were often going on and players of any level/skill could participate in.  In this game it was more the players and community really that created that atmosphere.

From the description Dana gives, there was a game that was in development that has stopped development that I think would have fostered the sandbox game he describes very well.  It was called Trials of Ascension.  But it ran out of funding a while back and nothing has happened with it since.

Since Bethesda (or whoever their parent company is) has a division Zenimax Studios that is working on an MMO, it's my fondest hope that they will create an MMO based on Morrowind.  Mechanically I think that would be a great stage setting for a sandbox MMO, provided the non-mechanical parts are there as well.  I prefer Morrowind over Oblivion due to the wide-open game world, where Oblivion was much smaller and more directed.

I'd love to find a game with the qualities he talks about.

Originally posted by Mordoth

While I never played UO, the sandbox game that Dana described is the type of game I would enjoy and I think what I have been looking for.

 

I played Horizons (now it's called Istaria) when it was originally released, and although it is a level based game, it had a lot of the same feel that Dana described.  There were world-wide initiatives that were often going on and players of any level/skill could participate in.  In this game it was more the players and community really that created that atmosphere.

From the description Dana gives, there was a game that was in development that has stopped development that I think would have fostered the sandbox game he describes very well.  It was called Trials of Ascension.  But it ran out of funding a while back and nothing has happened with it since.

Since Bethesda (or whoever their parent company is) has a division Zenimax Studios that is working on an MMO, it's my fondest hope that they will create an MMO based on Morrowind.  Mechanically I think that would be a great stage setting for a sandbox MMO, provided the non-mechanical parts are there as well.  I prefer Morrowind over Oblivion due to the wide-open game world, where Oblivion was much smaller and more directed.

I'd love to find a game with the qualities he talks about.

 

I agree on morrowind over oblivion.

But not becouse it was a larger world morrowind was far more rpg and complex then oblivion they have dumb down oblivion so much it was playable for casuals.

You had so much more freedom in morrowind and not so much guided or easy travel as oblivon had.

I guess im one of the rare few who DON"T get misty eye'd when it comes to Sandbox games ala UO.  My experience was pretty much marred by the hardcore pvp players that basically ruled the lands if you even so much as dared to leave the safety of the city.  It crushed my dreams to be a map maker, it crushed my dreams to be a fisherman looking for a good fishing hole that wasn't crowded.  It pretty much just made the game impossible to play it was always the case on some servers but everyone I tried was that way. 

The dev's could just never get it right when it came to downside of being an outlaw.   Adding housing made it extra laggy and much easier to be killed.  Their answer was Trammel which made the game pretty boring because the idea of the occasional danger was fun but there just wasn't enough downside to being an outlaw so there were TONS of them hiding in the shadows at the cross roads ready to destroy you and steal everything you own.  Hell you could go naked and they'd still kill you.

If someone was to do a Sandbox MMO I'd hope that along with all that freedom they give you they still have proper punishment for being an outlaw or doing business with one. I mean hell the real medievil period was actually safer than UO! To know that my freedom wasnt' limited to knowing how close to a guard or a city I am to be protected would be the the only way to get me back to Sandbox.

I enjoy the themepark simply because I can take on a role and play through a story with my friends without an overwhelming amount of d bags ruining the experience.   I do miss that choice to freely change my profession or have multiple ones.  I'd like to see a decent hybrid that gave you plenty of freedom but didnt' let the D bags rule the planet.

Then maybe it is down to us, the players of games, to tell the devs, the investors, the beancounters, the supposed visionaries of the games, what we want?

The term sandbox has become a confused and muddled term now, it has connotations of hardcore PvP, so should we use a clearer term to tell them what we want?

Should we tell them we want our options, we want the tools to create our own content, not scenarios, but events that move and shape a world, we want what we do to have an impact on the world we live in, and not have our actions reset to nothing in 15 minutes, we want to be part of a world, a living growing online world with a community.

There are plenty of games out now that cater to the ones that want to be lead by the nose.

Give us options, give us tools, give us a living world, give us our FREEDOM!

Playing Eve and Ryzom,  games with some freedom.

Originally posted by veritas_X

I don't think its been that long since a proper sandbox was on the market, I'd say SWG circa 2005 fit the bill of just about everything you described.

Otherwise I agree with most of your points, with particular kudos to the non-combat options and XP as an anti-social mechanic.  Hopefully some development types hear you.

4 years is a very very long time in this industry...

 You want to probably check out Dawntide, dawntide.net. It promises a lot of what you're seeking and has just begun their early closed beta. Quoting their site:

"Dawntide is designed with one main thought in mind: People play games with different motivations, and want different things out of the games they play. As a consequence, the market for games has developed in a very modularized way: there are games that let you turn your mind off and relax, games that provide different kinds of challenges, games that focus on socialization. Dawntide incorporates all these elements into a game focused around a world in which the players are the driving element and the builders of a new civilization.

Key Features

Open ended character development.
Completely player driven economy.
Complex crafting and resource system.
Territorial ownership and warfare.
Epic end goals for every type of player.
Innovative research/technology mechanics."

I think this is spot on:

Sandbox MMOs are also about far more than combat. This is where Darkfall misses the mark for me. Yes, it has a wealth of options in its design, but fair or not, it's developed a reputation as a hardcore PvP world. It's all about killing and looting. This is not options.

For me, Darkfall came very close to being an awesome game. I loved the skill-based advancement. I really enjoyed the FPS combat. But the open pvp with full loot turned the game into a constant gank-fest that made advancement out in the gameworld extremely difficult and drove a large proportion of the playerbase to set up "bloodwalls" and spend most of their time hitting afk players.

That's just no fun at all - it's weeks and weeks and weeks of mindless mashing at the keyboard to make a bunch of numbers go up so then you can out and actually play the game.

If Darkfall had offered two servers - one with and one without full loot (and maybe a few other small changes, eg. fixing the alignment exploits), I think it would have gone a long way towards pleasing those looking for a good sandbox mmo.

Thank you Dana very much,

That was a great read and hope these wonders can be fully re-explored in the market. 

I would ask to go a step further, however.  What features and new systems of the Theme Park games can be addapted to the perfect "Sandbox" game but not break the "Sandbox"? 

My experiance is only SWG-PreNGE so I don't have the UO background.  I feel PreNGE SWG would not fly today as it was so short on content and features to what Post NGE has today.  With the delicate balance of non-combat features wieghed in, SWG would be a incrediable game if it had continued with the Pre-NGE scheme (with balancing, upgrades and bug fixes included).  Things would have still been nerfed like Alpha Jedi, TEF's and the Legendary & Exceptional loot but it could have been salvaged.

"Sandbox" MMO's will only come back when a company like Blizzard is willing to take that chance.  They have the where for all to a) afford the loss if failure, and b) Maybe, do a proper launch with full support and clear proper 20/20 hindsight to what troubles to avoid.  If that game is a success then the rest of the market will respond. 

Lets all hope that "Sandbox" will happen someday.

Originally posted by Evasia

Originally posted by Ozmodan

Well I am glad you enjoy Darkfall Evasia.  But let's not get confused, Darkfall is far from being a sandbox game, not even close.   There is little choice associated with Darkfall.   

Despite some people's attempt to make UO a pvp game it was far more than that.  Pvp was actually a fairly rare occurance unless you specifically went looking for it all the time, even in Felucca.

 

 

Lol do you even know what a sandbox is and again as so many im almost 100% positive you have never played Darkfall.

You hate hardcore pvp thats mainly focussed on that and you guys then say its no sandbox WTF:(

Where even to begin... Evasia, you do realize that it takes much, MUCH more than just "hardcore pvp" to define a game as a sand box?  Full loot and unrestricted ganking are hardly enough to qualify a game as "hardcore".  A real "hardcore" game would include those, as well as perma death, and would make people running around naked(as so many on darkfall have) one shot targets to those using more than basic weapons. The phrase sand box implies development in so many areas that Darkfall falls short of, that the two simply do not belong in the same sentence. 

good article.

I want a sandbox, no levels just skills to learn and fun to explore.

a game that amazes me and lets me explore and have fun will keep me engaged much beter than a level grind.

ccp doing a WOD megaverse would rock,  vamps and werewolves and mages oh my..

Ask and you shall receive:

http://linkrealms.com/

Originally posted by wolfmann

A friggin to the men!

 

Sandbox ain't free whack-a-mole... It's a world, where you can be or do anything, and the world doesnt revolve around combat, but the people inhabiting that world, be it the fisherman, the poet, the ministrel the uncle Ben farmer and yes the triggerhappy soldier/goon.

the problem is MMO players haveen gotten a lot more...well

They have become bigger jerks.

Back in UO i was stalked by PKers while i was just trying to mape the world and cut lumber. And that was the good old days. In WoW (which isnt nearly as sand box ) you have people camping corses and hiding spies cross faction.

Now imagine that in full sandbox?

*shudder*

That's a BIG problem, how to do sandbox without feeding the world to the trolls.

Originally posted by nekollx

Originally posted by wolfmann

A friggin to the men!

 

Sandbox ain't free whack-a-mole... It's a world, where you can be or do anything, and the world doesnt revolve around combat, but the people inhabiting that world, be it the fisherman, the poet, the ministrel the uncle Ben farmer and yes the triggerhappy soldier/goon.

 

the problem is MMO players haveen gotten a lot more...well

They have become bigger jerks.

Back in UO i was stalked by PKers while i was just trying to mape the world and cut lumber. And that was the good old days. In WoW (which isnt nearly as sand box ) you have people camping corses and hiding spies cross faction.

 

Now imagine that in full sandbox?

 

*shudder*

 

That's a BIG problem, how to do sandbox without feeding the world to the trolls.

Simply can't be done, without some limitations on PvP. Every system I've seen that doesn't use HARD CODED(server side) limits on who can attack who, has ended up being a gankfest.  Its simply the nature of the Beast.  Griefers and gankers are WAY too "creative" in finding ways around any system thats not hard coded. They then eventually drive off the very type of people that a real sand box MUST have to evolve into a living breathing world.

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by nekollx

Originally posted by wolfmann

A friggin to the men!

 

Sandbox ain't free whack-a-mole... It's a world, where you can be or do anything, and the world doesnt revolve around combat, but the people inhabiting that world, be it the fisherman, the poet, the ministrel the uncle Ben farmer and yes the triggerhappy soldier/goon.

 

the problem is MMO players haveen gotten a lot more...well

They have become bigger jerks.

Back in UO i was stalked by PKers while i was just trying to mape the world and cut lumber. And that was the good old days. In WoW (which isnt nearly as sand box ) you have people camping corses and hiding spies cross faction.

 

Now imagine that in full sandbox?

 

*shudder*

 

That's a BIG problem, how to do sandbox without feeding the world to the trolls.

 

Simply can't be done, without some limitations on PvP. Every system I've seen that doesn't use HARD CODED(server side) limits on who can attack who, has ended up being a gankfest.  Its simply the nature of the Beast.  Griefers and gankers are WAY too "creative" in finding ways around any system thats not hard coded. They then eventually drive off the very type of people that a real sand box MUST have to evolve into a living breathing world.

my personal solution would be to have a "wanted" system. Not simple "this guy killed x players" but based in on how often and how soon the same body is killed to increase their rep. Put a ingame gold reward on their head. And here's the kicker.

NPC bounty hunters.

Then the gankers can't just avoid other players they have to avoid a persistent, stalking, in game presence.

I'mage those UO guards catching sigh of you and sending a hunting party after your ass for the next hour. (of ingame time so even logging out wont help you need to avoid them for a hour, in game)

My first graphic-based computer RPG was Ultima II, when I was still a young lad, and a friend of mine brought it over, along with the cloth map and all of the other impressive swag that came with the boxed game at the time.  Having already been a big fan of fantasy fiction, getting my first dose of a computer based role-playing game that allowed me to wander across an extensive map and gather reagents for casting spells while killing various wandering monsters in order to plunder their treasure hoardes was a dream come true, even if it was all presented in simple sprites.

Fast forward to 2000, after finally settling down in life with a PC of my own, I went out and grabbed Ultima Online, hoping that it had somehow retained the flavor of its predecessors, and satisfy that long lost yearning I had when I was still in love with its single-player computer counterparts.  Apparently I had missed the boat.  I came into UO as the original fan base was already leaving in droves due to the prior Hell that was unchecked PvP, and the apparent game-wide changes that had been made to curb this behavior.  I still got the sense that this was the Ultima universe that I had loved when I was younger, but I walked into a seething mass of bitterness and despair from a waning fan-base, and most of this was due to the restrictions placed upon those that were not allowed to 'grief' other players.  Thus, my first taste of MMO gaming was tainted by the reality that no matter what the genre, and no matter what the game franchise, the demographic was going to be split by those that wanted to just enjoy the game and the exploration it allowed, and those that wanted their DOOM/Quake experience, no matter what the previous lore of the game was before it became a MMORPG.

I guess I didn't get much chance to enjoy the "sandbox" feel of UO, because the freedom of the game had already been spoild by those that brought a whole other element into the game that I don't think the developers fully anticipated when they sat down to create the project.  The Ultima universe had never really had to tackle player-versus-player in such a way before, and the ensuing changes and restrictions had turned the entire thing upside down on its head.  I was saddened when I finally stepped into this world, only to find the community rapidly falling apart.  I stayed a short while, and left.

What Dana describes in his article is my ideal MMO.  I could only wish that someone would once again make the attempt to design an MMO affiliated with one of those game universes that I hold so dear to my heart, like Ultima.  I fear that I have lost any and all connection with the game worlds that developers try to present now, because I hold no other connection to them other than the face they currently represent.  I think this is what gave World of Warcraft its edge, at least for me.  It transitioned smoothly from a RTS environment that already had the two primary factions pitted against one another into an MMO enbvironment that carried over those same pre-existing animosties.  While I was never a really big fan of Real Time Strategy games (I was a fan of the Diablo universe), once I tried World of Warcraft, Despite the fact that it failed to meet certain expectations that I sought in a MMO environment, I found myself enjoying it...

 At least, in the beginning...

Sadly, with the success of World of Warcraft due to its easy-to-use interface, its "console RPG' feel, and its... I hate to say this but I think its true; Spoon-fed content, it has set the "standards" of expectation that shareholders and investors alike seek out in the development of new MMOs that enter the market.  They don't really take the time to investigate what exactly makes these games a success, they just want the "success."  They just want to jump in, grab the surging profits while they can, then bail out on the project before the market bottoms out.  This sad new reality has become so pervasive in the business, the International Game Developer's Association is regularly scheduling summits to discuss the quality of life for game developers and the teams that work with them.   and the founding community of passionate game creators and designers has all but dissolved with the heavy pressure and lack of concern for overall quality coming from the publishers and their investors.

It will take the emergence of a new and profoundly loud voice willing to go in a bold new direction entirely in order for the game industry to shake itself out of this "Let's be the next WoW killer" mentality and just step forward with a fresh new idea.  It will take someone persuasive and willing to fight tooth and nail to grab the attention of publishers and investors, and the willingness to fully realize and see through to the very end a project worthy of the kind of monetary support that the current generation of games has already garnered, in order to make sure that its success is sustainable.

In the current trend I'm seeing, games appear to need some sort of "star power" in order to even break through into the general market today.  It's tools like MMORPG.com, and viral marketing campaigns that could probably go a long way towards supporting and potentially helping a worthy MMO of reaching the market, by starting the "industry buzz" needed in order for investors to throw their support behnd a fresh new project.

Rather than lament the "good old days" of gaming, its going to take some relentless campaigning on the part of a talented crew of individuals and the community support they can garner in order to bring an impressive, compelling, well-designed, well-written and fully realized "sandbox" game to life.  It could start here, with this thread, and the ideas that those of us that actually care enough about this subject to voice our opinions and ideas  post here.