In his weekly column, Dana Massey looks at the nostalgia people feel for classic sandbox MMOs and talks about ways that developers could truly re-capture their popularity.

What is a sandbox MMO, anyway? We often hear laments of old time gamers who miss the days of old-school Ultima Online and complain that no one has dared to properly fill that void. In the decade-plus since UO's launch, the market has been dominated by level based games. As cries for a sandbox MMO continue to grow louder, I wonder if it has not been so long that the memory of what they truly were has begun to fade. So, this week, I examine what, to me, was the essence of a sandbox MMO experience and how I'd like to see one built in this modern era.

Being a true sandbox MMO is about more than just mechanics. It's a virtual world where people can truly settle into a role. It's not about combat mechanics, quests, or storyline. It's about freedom.

Read Dana Massey Asks Why Not Build a Proper Sandbox?

Brought a tear to my eye.  I am going to copy this article and everytime someone asks about a sandbox game I will post it.  It is to bad people with true vision aren't designing games.  You have a deepest respect sir.

Edit:

It is to bad that game like DF and MO that are trying to recapture the magic that UO was have focused to much on the pvp aspect.

I don't think its been that long since a proper sandbox was on the market, I'd say SWG circa 2005 fit the bill of just about everything you described.

Otherwise I agree with most of your points, with particular kudos to the non-combat options and XP as an anti-social mechanic.  Hopefully some development types hear you.

Great read, made me a bit misty eyed too. I also plan to copy it and spread it to others. I have loved both types of MMOs, sandbox and theme park, but I have only felt one kind, sandbox, in the put of my stomach. For me thats the difference. The sense of mystery and adventure when you log in and feel lost and afraid in a large open world is priceless.

doesn't get more sandboxy then Eve /obv

I have read many debates on these forums about what people think of as "sandbox".  Dana, I think you hit the nail squarely on the head.  I agree 100%.  These are the features I have been missing since they ruined the original SWG.

What I find remarkable is not Dana's list of features which make a sandbox.  It is what he left off of the list.  Yes, UO had free-for-all PvP.  But that isn't necessary for a sandbox.  What about crafting and player housing?  3D graphics?  I think those are needed but we could debate the detailed features endlessly.  I think Dana got the basic philosophy right and I hope some developers will eventually step forward and make such a game reality.

Thanks

Ok Devs, we are looking forward to the day you say the SandBox game is coming back.

Amen to this.

This is certainly what I'm looking for to a large extent.

Originally posted by cludinsk

doesn't get more sandboxy then Eve

 

 

 

Yeah EvE is a great game, it has all the freedoms of UO but alot of players also want a fantasy experience instead of the sci-fi one EvE brings to the table.

I still play UO in its pre-trammel form and SWG in its original yet buggy form and those two games were freaking amazing.

Besides Eve only Ryzom has given me any type of freedom in my MMO gaming.

Edit: to the OP I agree with what you said about DF. It doesnt give people the option do what they want. It basically rams pvp up your ass and tells you to like it.  That's not a sandbox. One of the greatests parts of Eve or Ryzom is that I have a choice I can pvp all day or be passive, I can craft all day in peace if i want to or gather without griefers all over my ass like white on rice.

I have the choice on how risky my gameplay is, something DF doesnt give you.

A friggin to the men!

Sandbox ain't free whack-a-mole... It's a world, where you can be or do anything, and the world doesnt revolve around combat, but the people inhabiting that world, be it the fisherman, the poet, the ministrel the uncle Ben farmer and yes the triggerhappy soldier/goon.

It's funny as soon as you mention Sandbox, most MMO gamers out there atm automatically place you in the Hardcore PvP box. I think this is the reason all MMO's have bored me to tears, yes it's about time someone brought back this philosophy and get back to the Player choice MMO instead of sticking us all in a game and forcing us to play like they want us to.

I truely cannot believe it's been 10 years, no wondering I'm getting bored :p

Playing an MMO should come down to Genre (Fantasy, Sci-Fi, etc.), Style (1st Person, Twitch, etc.), Era (Medieval, Fantasy, Space, etc.), Play Area (World, Universe, etc.) as the choices. You can probably add more but I'll be short here.

My point, get back to making a world for us to play in, then let the players decide how it evolves or changes. Quit putting up "we must be here at X date/time to get a benefit. Be more flexible and open your mind away from what's been done or aiming to top WoW. Just give us a simple CHOICE! of what we wanna do.

Originally posted by Shealladh

It's funny as soon as you mention Sandbox, most MMO gamers out there atm automatically place you in the Hardcore PvP box. I think this is the reason all MMO's have bored me to tears, yes it's about time someone brought back this philosophy and get back to the Player choice MMO instead of sticking us all in a game and forcing us to play like they want us to.

 

I truely cannot believe it's been 10 years, no wondering I'm getting bored :p

 

Playing an MMO should come down to Genre (Fantasy, Sci-Fi, etc.), Style (1st Person, Twitch, etc.), Era (Medieval, Fantasy, Space, etc.), Play Area (World, Universe, etc.) as the choices. You can probably add more but I'll be short here.

 

My point, get back to making a world for us to play in, then let the players decide how it evolves or changes. Quit putting up "we must be here at X date/time to get a benefit. Be more flexible and open your mind away from what's been done or aiming to top WoW. Just give us a simple CHOICE! of what we wanna do.

Problem with creating a MMO with choice is most newish players wont know what to do with choice.

They want to be lead around, they want to know what dungeons to run and how to get their gear.

They don't like feeling lost.

They need quests to lead them to higher level zones like dogs on a leash.

They don't want a flexible character advancement system, they want real levels of power and simple talent trees.

We are the minority so I don;t see a game for us comming for a while by a AAA developer.

We have games like Earthrise and MO coming down the pipe but tbh I dont see these games being better than what im already playing (Eve/Ryzom and SWG/UO private servers).

We almost had it with SWG Pre CU yeah we all know what happened there :)

Wasnt a true sandbox but was as close as damned.

Awesome article!  UO wasn't the only game to have this type of feeling.  As many of you know SWG is talked about and loved ad nauseum for years now.  THIS is what we are talking about.  As jacked up as the actual game was, it got the hell out of our way and let us players be the content, while providing us with the tools to do so.  I felt like I was a part of a living, breathing virtual world and no game has given me that feeling since.

Those of you who are sick and tired of the same old treadmill theme-park games may not have ever experienced a sandbox game like this because it's been so long since a good one was around to play. I never, ever got bored in SWG because I could do just about anything I wanted.  There are many, many game elements that made it possible, but we were not funneled into quests, instances and end-game content.

Dana mentions "inclusiveness" and I think this is a huge part of what made UO and SWG so incredible.  Let's face it, there are countless players out there who will jump into a sanddbox game and never, ever do combat.  They just don't care for it.  However, they will bring many other things to the game world that all the players can enjoy.  I'm personally a 50/50 guy.  In a sandbox I will roll at least one combat toon and one non-combat toon so that I can play the game the way I feel like playing it.

It's hard to describe what happens when a good sandbox game, as described by Dana, takes on a life of it's own.  It's freakin' magic in my opinion.  I am in my 30's and when you are an adult with a family, job and other responsibilities, you do not often have the chance to let your imagination run wild like you did as a child. Sandbox games in the style of UO and SWG are so immersive, that you can completely fall away into them. It's like when you watch a really, really good movie, and you wish you could jump into the screen and be a part of that strange and wonderful new world.  A well made sandbox can do that for you.  I really miss it.

Originally posted by JGMIII 

Problem with creating a MMO with choice is most newish players wont know what to do with choice.

They want to be lead around, they want to know what dungeons to run and how to get their gear.

They don't like feeling lost.

They need quests to lead them to higher level zones like dogs on a leash.

They don't want a flexible character advancement system, they want real levels of power and simple talent trees.

We are the minority so I don;t see a game for us comming for a while by a AAA developer.

We have games like Earthrise and MO coming down the pipe but tbh I dont see these games being better than what im already playing (Eve/Ryzom and SWG/UO private servers).

 

I dont believe that the majority of players actually want things like that. I think they have been conditioned into believing thats what they want.

If games had followed the UO/SWG Pre-CU/EvE/sandbox open ended/skill based style, players would come to expect and desire more sandbox types of games. Instead we have all been forcefed the EQ/WoW/themepark class/level style so thats what most are used to.

Originally posted by JGMIII

Originally posted by Shealladh

It's funny as soon as you mention Sandbox, most MMO gamers out there atm automatically place you in the Hardcore PvP box. I think this is the reason all MMO's have bored me to tears, yes it's about time someone brought back this philosophy and get back to the Player choice MMO instead of sticking us all in a game and forcing us to play like they want us to.

 

I truely cannot believe it's been 10 years, no wondering I'm getting bored :p

 

Playing an MMO should come down to Genre (Fantasy, Sci-Fi, etc.), Style (1st Person, Twitch, etc.), Era (Medieval, Fantasy, Space, etc.), Play Area (World, Universe, etc.) as the choices. You can probably add more but I'll be short here.

 

My point, get back to making a world for us to play in, then let the players decide how it evolves or changes. Quit putting up "we must be here at X date/time to get a benefit. Be more flexible and open your mind away from what's been done or aiming to top WoW. Just give us a simple CHOICE! of what we wanna do.

Problem with creating a MMO with choice is most newish players wont know what to do with choice.

They want to be lead around, they want to know what dungeons to run and how to get their gear.

They don't like feeling lost.

They need quests to lead them to higher level zones like dogs on a leash.

They don't want a flexible character advancement system, they want real levels of power and simple talent trees.

We are the minority so I don;t see a game for us comming for a while by a AAA developer.

We have games like Earthrise and MO coming down the pipe but tbh I dont see these games being better than what im already playing (Eve/Ryzom and SWG/UO private servers).

The first time I logged on to SWG, which was my first MMO, I was completely lost.  However, the moment I stepped out of the Start Port onto a planet after creating my character, I was greeted with players who wanted to help me learn my way around.  In fact, because this was such a large part of SWG, SOE added a title that you could have under your name on the screen called "Player Helper" which would let people know you were available to give them some direction.

I wasn't in the game 5 minutes before someone noticed I was a noob, and walked over to talk to me.  This random person furnished me with a basic weapon, some food, and a little money, then took me out on my first hunt.  While hunting and helping me get my initial XP, he was telling me fantastic stories about all the things I had to look forward to. I was instantly sold, and I played the game from the first month after launch until the NGE happened.  I would probably still be playing it to this day had Sony not hosed it by removing everything that made the game world spontaneously come to life.

Mind you, player helpers were a part of the culture of the game.  I didn't run into some random nice guy.  I came to realize that there were people hanging around all over the place that were more than happy to answer a few questions or take you on an adventure.  I ended up doing it myself several times, and I loved it.

It won't take long for new players to get into the groove, especially since proper sandbox games foster a community which is willing to help.  I came straight from many years of FPS shooters, having never played any other type game, to SWG and the transition wasn't that hard.  Yes, today's players are used to having their hands held, but I think everyone would be surprised how many people would fall in love with a well made sandbox.  It's only a niche market now because most of today's MMO players have never experienced it and they have no viable sandbox game to try now.

The original "Jumpgate" game (at least the European server) included a lot of "sandbox" feeling. Levels were present but didn't mean much other then defining which classes of spaceships you were allowed to fly. Skill-based combat meant a veteran in a low level account could beat the hell out of a high-level player easily. Trading/Hauling, Combat (both PvP and PvE) and Mining were basically the only things tied to hard-coded game mechanics, apart from that a lot of player-driven activities and creative role-playing both in game and on the in-character discussion boards ensued. There were no "classes" defined by the game mechanics, yet there were miners, merchants, patrolmen, mercenaries, raiders, and people who just did their own thing in space.

I think the lack of any hard-coded classes and stuff boosted the player's creativity. This and the fact that Jumpgate had a single, largely persistent universe, made me spend countless hours online until JG was closed down Summer 2005.

"Why Not Build a Proper Sandbox?"

Because the corporate accountants behind the companies big enough to launch a full-scale mmorpg are scared that it wouldn't give them the almost guaranteed levels of income of a generic clone of existing mmorpgs promises, whilst taking away their security blanket of 'being in control',and they are not even slightly interested in taking the chance - 'freedom for players' is their worst nightmare, they see it needing human moderation, and in-depth support, and all those pesky expensive bits that they are trying so hard to abolish by pre-scripted 'quests', automated and soulless 'levelling areas', and cheap phone 'support' in place of genuine customer service....

Or was it just a rhetorical question?

Originally posted by AureliusLH

"Why Not Build a Proper Sandbox?"

Because the corporate accountants behind the companies big enough to launch a full-scale mmorpg are scared that it wouldn't give them the almost guaranteed levels of income of a generic clone of existing mmorpgs promises, whilst taking away their security blanket of 'being in control',and they are not even slightly interested in taking the chance - 'freedom for players' is their worst nightmare, they see it needing human moderation, and in-depth support, and all those pesky expensive bits that they are trying so hard to abolish by pre-scripted 'quests', automated and soulless 'levelling areas', and cheap phone 'support' in place of genuine customer service....

Or was it just a rhetorical question?

Well, if you hang around gaming sites enough, you will see that even the biggest WoW fan is shocked and disappointed when they finally leave WoW for something new and they find out every other game out there is very similar.  The Theme-park game will always be around, but if something new (or old in the case of sandbox games) doesn't come along to mix things up, people will just leave the genre for something else. Sooner or later you get the impression you are on a treadmill wasting your time when you play a theme-park. The same is not true of a sandbox game because there is a real dynamic community and countless options.  The game gets out of your way and gives you the world and tools to forge your own adventure, however epic or mundane you want it to be on any given day.

Brilliant.

Maybe Blizzard's next MMO will be a Sandbox now they've popped so many MMO cherries with WoW.

Also keep an eye on World of Darkness from CCP/White Wolf.  CCP knows sandbox, and are partnered with a great IP in WoD.  Very exciting stuff when you consider that the avatar system from World of Darkness could contribute to walking on stations and ships in EVE.

 Great article, the best definition of a sandbox MMO I've seen so far.

Unfortunately the recent ones are merely PvP focused no-level worlds rather than Sandboxes, and if you craft, you're crafting for combat anyway. Housing? Just a new bind point to get to PvP. Villages? Moar Pvp to capture resources. Weather? You guessed it, the premisse is to influenciate PvP.

We have no "UO clone" yet :P

Originally posted by Bureyku

Brilliant.

Maybe Blizzard's next MMO will be a Sandbox now they've popped so many MMO cherries with WoW.

Also keep an eye on World of Darkness from CCP/White Wolf.  CCP knows sandbox, and are partnered with a great IP in WoD.  Very exciting stuff when you consider that the avatar system from World of Darkness could contribute to walking on stations and ships in EVE.

Yep, I'm definitely keeping my eye open for WoD, would be fun to have a more fantasy based game a la CCP.

MindTrigger -

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree a 'sandbox' game is needed, and as a long-time UO player I really wish there was anything that innovative out there again now - but my point is there's zero appetite for it in the major companies, they really are not showing any signs of interest in adventurous design or genuine innovation either in mmo or standalone games, and unless they stop seeing the big $ pouring in from what they turn out now they have no incentive to take the risky step. A smaller independent company would be the best hope, but the costs nowadays make it extremely unlikely they could fund something without being taken into partnership with one of the 'giants', and that would end up killing the potential innovation on offer.

I can't see a 'sandbox' mainstream mmorpg until such time as profits from the generic version fall far enough that someone in the corporates thinks 'might be worth taking the risk', and I fear that will not happen soon. Sure, people get disillusioned with the existing games eventually, and then are further disappointed that there's so little real variety on offer from the others in the market - but as long as the existing product gives a big payoff to the makers, they really have no reason to change the recipe.

Originally posted by MindTrigger 

Sooner or later you get the impression you are on a treadmill wasting your time when you play a theme-park. The same is not true of a sandbox game because there is a real dynamic community and countless options.  The game gets out of your way and gives you the world and tools to forge your own adventure, however epic or mundane you want it to be on any given day.

That is purely based on the game and a 'sandbox' game can limit your actions just as badly as any thempark game.  My primary problem with SWG was that whenever I tried to do something interesting (to me) in the game, it would throw a roadblock before me and seemed to channel me toward mission running and farming.

Originally posted by AureliusLH

MindTrigger -

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree a 'sandbox' game is needed, and as a long-time UO player I really wish there was anything that innovative out there again now - but my point is there's zero appetite for it in the major companies, they really are not showing any signs of interest in adventurous design or genuine innovation either in mmo or standalone games, and unless they stop seeing the big $ pouring in from what they turn out now they have no incentive to take the risky step. A smaller independent company would be the best hope, but the costs nowadays make it extremely unlikely they could fund something without being taken into partnership with one of the 'giants', and that would end up killing the potential innovation on offer.

I can't see a 'sandbox' mainstream mmorpg until such time as profits from the generic version fall far enough that someone in the corporates thinks 'might be worth taking the risk', and I fear that will not happen soon. Sure, people get disillusioned with the existing games eventually, and then are further disappointed that there's so little real variety on offer from the others in the market - but as long as the existing product gives a big payoff to the makers, they really have no reason to change the recipe.

I agree.  I have said many times on this site that it's going to take an indy game developer who is willing to take chances and doesn't have to answer to a board of directors that knows nothing about games to really make some changes.  The problem is, due to WoW's success (right place, right time, right minimum system requirements if you ask me), game companies think you need 10 million subscribers to be "successful".  It's a ludicrous idea. You can still make a nice chunk of money with 200-500k subscribers cranking out $50 per box, and $15 per month.