Originally posted by n2sooners

Originally posted by DailyBuzz

Well, it's a good thing we aren't talking about a government run health care system.

Nope, instead we are talking about a public option, which the CBO says will work in harmony with private insurers.

 

The CBO didn't say that, and saying things like that isn't in the CBO's job description. The CBO just estimates how much it would cost, and it said it will cost a lot.

Check here on page 1

Paul Krugman gets pwned.

video

Originally posted by Fishermage

See Faxxer, when they lose the argument, they divert and change the subject. Gotta love it when they get caught up in their own lies.

(this was in response to Hyperion's obvious diversion)

Aha yea whatever

Still doesant change the fact that Repubs are a pretty selfish lot.

I guess a IQ test for leftist would not prove much. I know some really high IQ people that have 0 commen sence. It's so obvious here there are some people on the left side that have 0 commen sence.

This health care bill will destroy the best health care system in the world. We already have medicade and medicare for the  old and the poor that works just fine. People flock to this country to get health care. Where do they flock from? The countries with single payer systems!!!!! Duh. Why do they come here? Because there system does not work!!! Duh!

Everything the obama admin has told the american public are lies and nearly everyday one more lie has been revealed,now they are saying they will have to tax middle class. While we still have 43% of the population that dont pay a damn dime in taxes.

At least now people are realising the lies and standing up against them. We are seeing it in town hall meetings even in dem states are taking huge beatings and being laughed at.

Don't take our Freedom we have worked for it for over 200 years. And personaly if you dont like us being the #1 country in the world,then get the hell out.

Originally posted by SabbathSMC

I guess a IQ test for leftist would not prove much. I know some really high IQ people that have 0 commen sence. It's so obvious here there are some people on the left side that have 0 commen sence.

Oh, the irony.  It's almost too much.  Almost.

That good old commen sence......whatever that is.

Originally posted by SabbathSMC

I guess a IQ test for leftist would not prove much. I know some really high IQ people that have 0 commen sence. It's so obvious here there are some people on the left side that have 0 commen sence.

This health care bill will destroy the best health care system in the world. We already have medicade and medicare for the  old and the poor that works just fine. People flock to this country to get health care. Where do they flock from? The countries with single payer systems!!!!! Duh. Why do they come here? Because there system does not work!!! Duh!

Everything the obama admin has told the american public are lies and nearly everyday one more lie has been revealed,now they are saying they will have to tax middle class. While we still have 43% of the population that dont pay a damn dime in taxes.

At least now people are realising the lies and standing up against them. We are seeing it in town hall meetings even in dem states are taking huge beatings and being laughed at.

 

Don't take our Freedom we have worked for it for over 200 years. And personaly if you dont like us being the #1 country in the world,then get the hell out.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry...

Originally posted by Trizic

Originally posted by SabbathSMC

I guess a IQ test for leftist would not prove much. I know some really high IQ people that have 0 commen sence. It's so obvious here there are some people on the left side that have 0 commen sence.

This health care bill will destroy the best health care system in the world. We already have medicade and medicare for the  old and the poor that works just fine. People flock to this country to get health care. Where do they flock from? The countries with single payer systems!!!!! Duh. Why do they come here? Because there system does not work!!! Duh!

Everything the obama admin has told the american public are lies and nearly everyday one more lie has been revealed,now they are saying they will have to tax middle class. While we still have 43% of the population that dont pay a damn dime in taxes.

At least now people are realising the lies and standing up against them. We are seeing it in town hall meetings even in dem states are taking huge beatings and being laughed at.

 

Don't take our Freedom we have worked for it for over 200 years. And personaly if you dont like us being the #1 country in the world,then get the hell out.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry...

I did a combination of both when I read that post.  Clears out the sinuses well.

Originally posted by HYPERI0N

Originally posted by Fishermage

See Faxxer, when they lose the argument, they divert and change the subject. Gotta love it when they get caught up in their own lies.

(this was in response to Hyperion's obvious diversion)

 

Aha yea whatever

Still doesant change the fact that Repubs are a pretty selfish lot.

So are Democrats. The difference is, Republicans tend to want money; Democrats want power.

Originally posted by SabbathSMC

At least now people are realising the lies and standing up against them. We are seeing it in town hall meetings even in dem states are taking huge beatings and being laughed at.

I'm not sure whether your post was a joke or not, but this was about the only coherent portion, so this is all I will address.

The town hall meetings (shout downs) you'll see on YouTube or Fox News (saw it on GVS earlier) aren't citizens participating in the political process by engaging their representatives. No, not hardly. They are actually organized intimidation groups, not present to ask serious questions, voice concerns, or seek answers, but to ensure that no relative questions are asked or reasonable responses are entertained. Just as we saw with "operation chaos" during the primaries, we see more typical conservative brand interference, misinformation, and contrarian rhetoric.

thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/townhallactionmemo.pdf

Nice to see "free-thinkers" acting as they've been instructed.

I bet half these people would lose their health care within 10 years without a public option. Poor Harry and Louise, now they see the importance of health care reform. Fortunately for the contrarians in the shout hall meetings, we won't allow their progression to see the same demise.

Originally posted by Sabiancym

He wants to eliminate it by making the public option the better choice.  It's simple competition.  One that I support.

 

And that was quite the editing job.  I can make Sarah paling say she supports gay marriage and late term abortions using all her speeches if you want.

 

And it's not on the news because we are all out to get you Faxxer.  Run.

The only thing as bad as a Conservative Republican is a Liberal Democrat.

In fact, if you associate yourself with either party you're a fucking tool.

If you "support" one part, then you're really screwed up or ignorant beyond belief. Probably the latter. Both parties have their share of good, but also a hell of a lot of bad.

Open your eyes and vote for what's right, do the research yourself and don't believe everything you hear on the fucking TV.

Obama's a fucking disgrace to the United States of America and everything it once stood for. Fucking celebrity.

Originally posted by Sabiancym

Originally posted by SabbathSMC

I guess a IQ test for leftist would not prove much. I know some really high IQ people that have 0 commen sence. It's so obvious here there are some people on the left side that have 0 commen sence.

 

Oh, the irony.  It's almost too much.  Almost.

 

That good old commen sence......whatever that is.

You must resist the effect of The Dark Side........use The Force, Sabia, use The Force.

Originally posted by rebelhero1

Originally posted by Sabiancym

He wants to eliminate it by making the public option the better choice.  It's simple competition.  One that I support.

 

And that was quite the editing job.  I can make Sarah paling say she supports gay marriage and late term abortions using all her speeches if you want.

 

And it's not on the news because we are all out to get you Faxxer.  Run.

 

The only thing as bad as a Conservative Republican is a Liberal Democrat.

In fact, if you associate yourself with either party you're a fucking tool.

If you "support" one part, then you're really screwed up or ignorant beyond belief. Probably the latter. Both parties have their share of good, but also a hell of a lot of bad.

Open your eyes and vote for what's right, do the research yourself and don't believe everything you hear on the fucking TV.

Obama's a fucking disgrace to the United States of America and everything it once stood for. Fucking celebrity.

And who says I don't vote for what's right and do the research?  I've been a supporter of national health care before Obama even announced his plans to run for president.

Saying Obama is a disgrace to everything America once stood for is both an insult and a compliment in my book.  I hate what America stands for in some aspects, and love other parts.

I actually agree that Insurance is a problem in this country. I have seen how it works, and how they get out of paying for the care they agreed to when the time comes. I have seen them try to delay and postpone treatment and I consider insurance a cruel bottleneck in the system.  Though I do not agree with how they plan on fixing these things, I agree something needs to be done. I would love to see health insurance disappear and instead a direct pay system implemented by doctors.

Rather than have a third party driving up health costs, have proper financing to doctors and hospitals that reduces costs without interest. setting up a payment plan people can afford is a better alternative than having someone dictate and refuse care.

Originally posted by Narug

We have to remember though that 'Service Guarantees Citizenship'

...

Heh, forgot about that Federation.

"Mobile Infantry, is what made me the man I am today."

You can't make an omlet without breaking a few eggs.  I love reading all the posts on this topic; you have all made my afternoon.

Originally posted by kiddyno071

You can't make an omlet without breaking a few eggs.  I love reading all the posts on this topic; you have all made my afternoon.

Also known as "the end justifies the means." A free society is not an omelette, and people are not eggs. Thanks for showng how statists view people however -- as eggs to be broken in the name of some imagined utopia -- as oposed to viewing them as sentient beings with inalienable rights.

Crush, kill, destroy.

Originally posted by Sabiancym

He wants to eliminate it by making the public option the better choice.  It's simple competition.  One that I support.

 

And that was quite the editing job.  I can make Sarah paling say she supports gay marriage and late term abortions using all her speeches if you want.

 

And it's not on the news because we are all out to get you Faxxer.  Run.

http://www.breitbart.tv/obama-in-03-id-like-to-see-a-single-payer-health-care-plan/

Care to ammend your statement of "editing job?"

Here he is in all his splendor saying exactly what his intentions are.  Do you have a refute to this?

Originally posted by Faxxer

Originally posted by Sabiancym

He wants to eliminate it by making the public option the better choice.  It's simple competition.  One that I support.

 

And that was quite the editing job.  I can make Sarah paling say she supports gay marriage and late term abortions using all her speeches if you want.

 

And it's not on the news because we are all out to get you Faxxer.  Run.

 

http://www.breitbart.tv/obama-in-03-id-like-to-see-a-single-payer-health-care-plan/

Care to ammend your statement of "editing job?"

Here he is in all his splendor saying exactly what his intentions are.  Do you have a refute to this?

What so bad about a president who wants to catch his country up to the rest of the world?

Originally posted by Trizic

Originally posted by Faxxer

Originally posted by Sabiancym

He wants to eliminate it by making the public option the better choice.  It's simple competition.  One that I support.

 

And that was quite the editing job.  I can make Sarah paling say she supports gay marriage and late term abortions using all her speeches if you want.

 

And it's not on the news because we are all out to get you Faxxer.  Run.

 

http://www.breitbart.tv/obama-in-03-id-like-to-see-a-single-payer-health-care-plan/

Care to ammend your statement of "editing job?"

Here he is in all his splendor saying exactly what his intentions are.  Do you have a refute to this?

What so bad about a president who wants to catch his country up to the rest of the world?

wow. You're right, I give.

Originally posted by deviliscious

I actually agree that Insurance is a problem in this country. I have seen how it works, and how they get out of paying for the care they agreed to when the time comes. I have seen them try to delay and postpone treatment and I consider insurance a cruel bottleneck in the system.  Though I do not agree with how they plan on fixing these things, I agree something needs to be done. I would love to see health insurance disappear and instead a direct pay system implemented by doctors.

Rather than have a third party driving up health costs, have proper financing to doctors and hospitals that reduces costs without interest. setting up a payment plan people can afford is a better alternative than having someone dictate and refuse care.

Thank you!  I don't think this idea would ever fly because opponents would scream that it would be too costly for people to pay out of pocket with health care cost so high.  But this is where free markets would work their wondrous magic.

If medicine converted to a direct pay system, you would see healthcare costs plummet.  Why?  Because doctors want to stay in business.  No company sells a good or service that can't be afforded by enough people to keep it in business.  Medical costs are so insanely high today because insurance companies are wealthy enough to pay the high prices.  If you remove insurance from the equation and make individuals responsible for costs, do you think hospitals would still be able to charge as much for their services?  No way.  No one (except the very rich) would be able to afford them, therefore, no one would pay for them and the next thing you know, hospitals would be going out of business all over the country.

In order to survive, healthcare costs would be forced to come down and before you know it, medicine would become remarkably affordable.  Unfortunately, politicians in Washington will never understand this.

I love these arguments because it reminds me of what Zizek has been saying for years. People can imagine the end of the world (and many here have argued that Obama is bringing us to that end) but they can not imagine a world with even the slightest social change. Now I paraphrased it but that was pretty much what he said. For many people this is true, including many of you on this board. You'll have no problem with the idea of a meteor crashing into the earth and wiping out all life and yet you can not imagine a world with universal healthcare or any sort of sociali reform that may be considered socialist.

My problem with the current situation is that health care is a system built on profit. The healthcare system works much like any other in a capitalist country. Reduce costs, build profits, invest and expand. It makes sense to denine people coverage for whatever reason (reducing costs, more profits) as well as not investing into things that are not profitable in the first place. The entire medicial community is built around profit. Drugs that do not make money are not made. Deals with doctors and other companies make it so that healthcare providers pay less than the average person walking in with no healthcare. There are plenty of people who go bankrupt from medical procedures who simply could not afford healthcare.

It boils down to this: healthcare should not be about profit. I find it absoluetly disgusting that people advocate a system that is built primarily to line the pockets of those providing the healthcare. Will sacrafices have to be made? In some cases, yes. With only one provider there will be a good number of people who will take a "hit" in terms of healthcare coverage. However, I am in agreeance with Obama that that should be a long term goal. Several decades of changing the system will be required for people to accept a newer system. This will also allow us to see any problems such as how rationing would work and costs. The disadvantages would not outweight the advantages. Many more people will be covered and an industry will function without the problems profit causes. Society as a whole will be better off.

I'd like to add this quickly since it seems to crop up in all of these off topic threads. Obama is not a socialist. Bailing out private industry is not exactly the most socialist thing to do. Banks would have been nationalized not pumped full of money.

And also, please don't label me a liberal. They are too right wing for me.

 EDIT: forgot source material

Just one of many articles on healthcare:

www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/06/01/090601fa_fact_gawande

A break down of the above article:

www.anthonyworlando.com/2009/07/26/less-is-more-the-ugly-truth-about-american-health-care/

Socialism is a big tent. Obama certainly is  a socialist.

Originally posted by DailyBuzz

 I'm not sure whether your post was a joke or not, but this was about the only coherent portion, so this is all I will address.

The town hall meetings (shout downs) you'll see on YouTube or Fox News (saw it on GVS earlier) aren't citizens participating in the political process by engaging their representatives. No, not hardly. They are actually organized intimidation groups, not present to ask serious questions, voice concerns, or seek answers, but to ensure that no relative questions are asked or reasonable responses are entertained. Just as we saw with "operation chaos" during the primaries, we see more typical conservative brand interference, misinformation, and contrarian rhetoric.

thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/townhallactionmemo.pdf

Nice to see "free-thinkers" acting as they've been instructed.

 

I bet half these people would lose their health care within 10 years without a public option. Poor Harry and Louise, now they see the importance of health care reform. Fortunately for the contrarians in the shout hall meetings, we won't allow their progression to see the same demise.

Well since Fox News is once again on the table of being shut, hey we have to only listen to Leftist style outlets, out I'd thought this would be interesting.

"ThinkProgress was voted “Best Liberal Blog” in the 2006 Weblog Awards and chosen as an Official Honoree in the 2009 Webby awards. It was also named best blog of 2008 by The Sidney Hillman Foundation, receiving an award for journalism excellence.
Without your generous support, we cannot do the work that we do. Please consider donating. Thank you."

______________________________________________

Congressman’s Town Hall Meeting on Health Care Takes Angry Turn

Taxpayer Confronts Democrat Senator Ben Cardin on Barack Obama Health Care Plan [FOX News]

I guess a citizen like in the above videos are part of the grand conspiracy.

"Robert Broadus was a Republican candidate in the 2008 congressional elections for the 4th Congressional District (map) of Maryland. On February 12, 2008, he lost the Republican nomination to Peter James,"

Now he did try to run for Congress but I see no allegiance to "shout-down" groups as thinkprogress likes to use in stunting opposing thought. Unless that's "illegal in thought" now.

(Like leftists have never organized)

Berkeley council tells Marines to leave

Edit: bah hopefully edited out that stretching of the post that middle line caused.

Originally posted by Fishermage

Socialism is a big tent. Obama certainly is  a socialist.

If we're stretching tents that big, the last 3 republican presidents have been fascists.

Originally posted by Sabiancym

Originally posted by Fishermage

Socialism is a big tent. Obama certainly is  a socialist.

 

If we're stretching tents that big, the last 3 republican presidents have been fascists.

Yes, indeed they were, and then some. Obama's also a fascist. Fascism is an outgrowth of socialist thinking -- in the beginning, it was billed as the "middle way" between capitalism and pure socialism -- it has its origin in the same schools of thought.

Most modern socialists, like Obama,  are a bit of both, and there's really a very blurry line between them.

The basic difference is between total ownership or simply control over the economy. In pure socialism, title is held by the government and private property is completely abolished; in fascism, title is still held in private hands but that title is rendered meaningless through government control over use of that property.

Democrats tend to lean toward a more socialist outlook (although with a LOT of fascist aspects), while Republicans lean toward a more fascist outlook (while they pay lip service to the market). They are in effect, pretty much the same thing in the  end.