Originally posted by shukes33

Strix do i get this right? you think that sanbox games need scripted content? hmm isn't the point of sandbox the ole" box with sand and nothing else but you in"? and scripted content is totally the opposite? i may have misread what you meant and you may have been using that as a different example though.

As for the endless fighting goblins and nothing else....again, why would you? if the game gives you all the other beasts etc to fight..why just fight goblins? i mean you get so many other places to go and fight but you can opnly spend hours grinding goblins? heck this is my first real pvp game and i left goblins as soon as my 1H sword hit 25! ye i occasionally pop back to stock up arrows and farm leather if i'm low on cash, but i used to do that in SolA back in old EQ too :)

Play the game how you want to not how endless trolls say you have to friend :)

Scripted content, what's the problem with it? Note how I worded it: some scripted events for very specific goals, i.e. building the lore of the world and presenting some variety. Is this bad? Does this instantly degrades the game? Not really, if done in minimal quantities and with quality. A nice dungeon tied to the story of the game with some scripted things would go a long way into building a sense of belonging and caring with the race, faction, etc. The important word there is some.

"Goblins" was just and example, an ubiquitous one for all new players of the game. My point is that not having quests is not sandbox, since you do have to grind for basics anyway. The PvE is uninspired and bland in this game, and I think few would disagree with that.

I do play the games the way I want. That's why I can't bear to play DFO: it limits me, instead of giving me freedom. It cannot sustain the creative things I want to do. And this is a matter of opinion. Despite disagreeing with fundamentally everything daarco presented, I respect his point of view and choice to play this game.

Originally posted by daarco

As you have seen here, time after time there are posts about players complaining for lack of "content". No questgiver that show you the way to the next mob spawn. Or clear directions of what to do. Its up to your own mind to TRY and do something.

I have played SWG and EVE, and you are in the same situation in Darkfall. No difference.

Thats why Darkfall is a sandbox MMO.

The only reason people say its not, its because Aventurine have a bad reputation from trolls. If Blizzard had made the exact same game, noone would say its not a sandbox.

Darkfall is a sandbox MMORPG but a crappy one since there aren't much options in the game. You see, sandbox does not mean lack of content but rather that there is no single way to access the content but rather can be approached from many different ways.

However Darkfall has just has very little things to do beside attacking/griefing each other and that does not make a good sandbox game.

Edit: Eve on the other hand has many different options. You can do missions, you can mine, you can ratt in 0.0 zones, you can build outposts, you can engage in corp to corp warfare, you can bounty hunt, you can people in low sec space, you can manipulate the market and make a good profit, you can create items, do BP missions. Furthermore you can specialise in many different type of weapons where as in Darkfall most are the same.

That is a good sandbox game where as Darkfall is just a (bad) engine that you can run around in and attack each other.

Sorry to hear of your loss, OP.

I can understand you having to try Darkfall yourself.

It reminds me of my trip to Iceland, and someone telling me about an Icelandic delicacy called Hákarl.

They warned me that I wouldn't like it, but I said, "Hey, how bad can it be?"

Well, needless to say, it was the nastiest tasting thing I had ever eaten. I guess it is an acquired taste.

I see the "Sandbox" card has been played on you. Don't let it bother you, and chalk it up as a learning experience.

BTW, I came across an interesting article on sandbox play the other day.

The article is well written and informative.

The History and Theory of Sandbox Gameplay   Enjoy!

Originally posted by Respit

BTW, I came across an interesting article on sandbox play the other day.

The article is well written and informative.

 

The History and Theory of Sandbox Gameplay   Enjoy!

Great read. Gamasutra has a tradition for good articles, and this is one of them. The part of "Necessary Framework" addresses perfectly the flaws I identify in DFO. Everyone should read this.

Thanks for the excellent tip.

Originally posted by StrixMaxima

Originally posted by shukes33

Strix do i get this right? you think that sanbox games need scripted content? hmm isn't the point of sandbox the ole" box with sand and nothing else but you in"? and scripted content is totally the opposite? i may have misread what you meant and you may have been using that as a different example though.

As for the endless fighting goblins and nothing else....again, why would you? if the game gives you all the other beasts etc to fight..why just fight goblins? i mean you get so many other places to go and fight but you can opnly spend hours grinding goblins? heck this is my first real pvp game and i left goblins as soon as my 1H sword hit 25! ye i occasionally pop back to stock up arrows and farm leather if i'm low on cash, but i used to do that in SolA back in old EQ too :)

Play the game how you want to not how endless trolls say you have to friend :)

 

Scripted content, what's the problem with it? Note how I worded it: some scripted events for very specific goals, i.e. building the lore of the world and presenting some variety. Is this bad? Does this instantly degrades the game? Not really, if done in minimal quantities and with quality. A nice dungeon tied to the story of the game with some scripted things would go a long way into building a sense of belonging and caring with the race, faction, etc. The important word there is some.

"Goblins" was just and example, an ubiquitous one for all new players of the game. My point is that not having quests is not sandbox, since you do have to grind for basics anyway. The PvE is uninspired and bland in this game, and I think few would disagree with that.

I do play the games the way I want. That's why I can't bear to play DFO: it limits me, instead of giving me freedom. It cannot sustain the creative things I want to do. And this is a matter of opinion. Despite disagreeing with fundamentally everything daarco presented, I respect his point of view and choice to play this game.

Fair enough!

I didnt mean that scripted degraded the game in any way, just that it does'nt go along with the sandbox theme. but i see your point in that if done in the right way can add a lot...and have to agree.

Everyone to thier own :)

I look at darkfall as a themepark with 1 ride and no height requirement.   Sure you can do what you want, but your choices are ride the kiddy train or head to a food stand.   Its fun for a few, but definitely not for everyone.

Originally posted by Respit

Sorry to hear of your loss, OP.

 

I can understand you having to try Darkfall yourself.

It reminds me of my trip to Iceland, and someone telling me about an Icelandic delicacy called Hákarl.

They warned me that I wouldn't like it, but I said, "Hey, how bad can it be?"

Well, needless to say, it was the nastiest tasting thing I had ever eaten. I guess it is an acquired taste.

 

I see the "Sandbox" card has been played on you. Don't let it bother you, and chalk it up as a learning experience.

 

BTW, I came across an interesting article on sandbox play the other day.

The article is well written and informative.

 

The History and Theory of Sandbox Gameplay   Enjoy!

Good article

For those of you who cant understand that some people enjoy Darkfall remember that there are people who enjoy shoving coke bottles up their butthole as well.  Dont try to understand how they find enjoyment, just let them be in their game and be thankful they arent around you in other games.

Originally posted by Perramas

For those of you who cant understand that some people enjoy Darkfall remember that there are people who enjoy shoving coke bottles up their butthole as well.  Dont try to understand how they find enjoyment, just let them be in their game and be thankful they arent around you in other games.

Your not talking about that horrific "Bottle Guy" pic are you?

Anyway, i agree with you. People have their own opinions on games and its their decision to do what they want.

Originally posted by biohacker

I am going to go out of limb and claim that DFO is possibly the worse game I played in my life (25+ years of gaming). The game design and implementation is so horrific that it will probably go into annals of gaming history at the very bottom. I should have listened to all the bad reviews, but had to see it for myself to believe how bad a game can be.... what I still can't believe is that  how anyone continue to play this crap that should get minus rating -- if such thing was possible ......  

The problem is that certain individual elements of the game are really good. Fantastic even.

But some of those elements interact poorly with each other and some things Aventurine have royally screwed up. So the overall game experience is incredibly poor.

The reason why some people continue to play is that they either really like completely open pvp with full-loot - and Darkfall is one of the few mmos to offer it - or they really like some of those good game elements, which also can't be found in other mmos.

Originally posted by daarco

 

 

You need to play Darkfall as a sandbox and not a themepark game. Hence making it a sandbox MMO : )

We have seen many times what happens when people pretend to think it is not a sandbox.

Maybe Darkfall is a sandbox game, but a nostalgic concept of what that implies does not make for a fun game, no matter how hard you try to find fun (and you really have to try hard at that in DF) after a while you have to admit the design and tools you have been offered to play with are exceedingly boring.

First thing you are told after joining the game is "Find a Guild" right away, or you will not have fun, this is at the very start up ... how is that sandboxish when the first suggestion to a new player is telling them to take this path, which is very major imo.  You may have folks who do not want to join a guild, these will then be told they will fail miserably in DF... wether they do or not, sandbox implies that you can play how ever you want  and that there will always be something enjoyable for you to do.  Even the biggest DF fan will have to admit this is not correct.

The only part of DF that my friends and I enjoyed were pvp and sieging, the smaller sieges that is .. the huge zergs were unpleasant and laggy.  Good pvp was hard to find it seems to always find you or the other party at a big disadvantage, when you finaly found it that is, and sieging can be very far inbetween. 

Other then sieging and pvp, the rest of the game play is a grind, which normaly in other games may not be so bad, but in DF it is mind-numbing boring and frustrating, frustrating because you keep finding yourself cursing the devs for making you go through all this crud.  Or, like the majority of the player base you start your afk macroing schedule, and exploit mobs to get the funds for buying regs needed.  Making your own fun indeed (sarcasm).

Me, I had more fun in pvp and big group fighting while playing a simple side game that was part of LoTRo  which they called Monsterplay,  more fun leveling up my spider and fighting off the 'freeps' (players who leveled  their human characters in the regular part of LoTRo) then I ever had in DF (you only level your moster by killing none monster players).  We were forced to use every bit of what was available, terrain, tactics, flanking, decoys ... you name it, we tried it.  Point Im making is that I felt that an unpolished simplified side game was by leaps and bounds more enjoyable then DF.

 Let me clarify few points since some of the replies implied that I was disgusted because I was being killed and couldn't stomach it. On the contrary, I took the chance to try DFO because of the concept of open PvP and sandbox game. I don't need theme parks. My point is that the games implementation is just mind bogglingly bad, for example your backpack appears like it was designed in 1994 computer code, you just have to experience to believe that you will waste like half an hour every day just grabbing and reorganizing items in your backpack and bank. You want to add someone as a friend, good luck! you have to go to in game web site like thing, then type persons name, then type search, then type confirm, then click on another button then click on friends name again then click on add and hope that you sent them a message to add them to your list! What an incredible hassle! I mean this game can be used as a method of torture for some! 

None of this has to do with getting killed, which is also massively flawed, because it takes few second of bad ping to be killed as a newbie, and if you are 10 seconds away from any city there is no way to run away. Yes I know eventually after clicking on some buttons like conditioned animals zillion times, some stupid number in your skill will go up slightly and eventually you will have enough gold to become "better" .... yeah also you better play naked or run to bank every 5 minutes to unload your loot! The game is NOT hardcore or sandbox, it is just something there to sink your time in unbelievable hassle and annoyances. 

Thats all any game is friend! a time sink :)

And dont get me wrong i understand what you are saying, but you still go back to the getting killed thing even after you have stated thats not what bothers you....makes me wander why you make another point about it :) Dont take this the wrong way mate because it is no insult, but its just not the game you are looking for :) just like Lotro is not for me.

Is Darkfall a sandbox?

Might be, but only to degree of sandbox with no buckets and showels. You are left with pile of sand and no tools, you are left with your bare hands that does not allow to build you anything great.

The main point of the sandbox game is player interaction. You need complex tools and mechanics that would allow players to build in-game content through co-operation and/or wars.

This is something Darkfall is missing.

I see your point and have heard it many times.

But like what? what tools does a sandbox need? we all say it and say that games dont have it! but what are they meant to have to make it sandbox?

Originally posted by shukes33

I see your point and have heard it many times.

But like what? what tools does a sandbox need? we all say it and say that games dont have it! but what are they meant to have to make it sandbox?

What I think sandbox games need:

• Something to fight over that gives you a certain advantage if you have and disadvantage if you dont have. That could be valuable quest spots, leveling grounds or resource spots for creating powerful crafted items
• Sense of continual advancement. Sandbox games should not hit a plateu where you can no longer effectively develop your character or guild. If it does then it will be just turn into an FPS game where you fight just for the sake of fighting and you might as well play an FPS.
• An economy. Yes, it is quite important for a sandbox to have a working economy so you can craft and trade for the items that you need. Eve is a good example of that.
• Valuable resource of some sort. There needs to be a resource which gives you a tanglible reward, for example in crafting items, that creates hot spots where guilds fight to gain control and gives purpose to the fighting and at the same time keeps the economy alive by fueling it with "currency".

Sandbox games cannot be an empty 3D engine that you just run around and kill each other, that's an FPS game.

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by shukes33

I see your point and have heard it many times.

But like what? what tools does a sandbox need? we all say it and say that games dont have it! but what are they meant to have to make it sandbox?

 

What I think sandbox games need:

• Something to fight over that gives you a certain advantage if you have and disadvantage if you dont have. That could be valuable quest spots, leveling grounds or resource spots for creating powerful crafted items
• Sense of continual advancement. Sandbox games should not hit a plateu where you can no longer effectively develop your character or guild. If it does then it will be just turn into an FPS game where you fight just for the sake of fighting and you might as well play an FPS.
• An economy. Yes, it is quite important for a sandbox to have a working economy so you can craft and trade for the items that you need. Eve is a good example of that.
• Valuable resource of some sort. There needs to be a resource which gives you a tanglible reward, for example in crafting items, that creates hot spots where guilds fight to gain control and gives purpose to the fighting and at the same time keeps the economy alive by fueling it with "currency".

Sandbox games cannot be an empty 3D engine that you just run around and kill each other, that's an FPS game.

 

1: like a citty with it's own mines and harvestable points which darkfall has. if you dont own a citty you have to brave the wilds and the pkers.

2: All you ever seem to do in DF is get skill hits and gain extra skills/spells. Once we all hit the cap i'm not sure. but AV have plenty of time to add before then.

3: Economy is rife in DF! seems to be a major passtime for most. there are so many crafters that dont ever seem to get out and fight...which is good ( i think :) )

4: In city mines you get higher/rarer ores etc that you cant harvest in the wilds. these are needed for the top end crafting items ( could be wrong ther though as i'm not 100%. Please verify if anyone knows for sure )

Just complementing, sandboxes need to stimulate character individuality and value. If you do not invest in combat skills, you probably have other abilities that can make you desirable in other circumstances. You could be a dagger demon, a sword and board specialist, a lancer, a skirmisher, a pickpocket, a pyromancer, a meek alchemist, a tailor, etc, etc. This variety creates a believable world (within certain parameters) that nurtures diversity, player interaction and, ultimately, fun.

Originally posted by StrixMaxima

Just complementing, sandboxes need to stimulate character individuality and value. If you do not invest in combat skills, you probably have other abilities that can make you desirable in other circumstances. You could be a dagger demon, a sword and board specialist, a lancer, a skirmisher, a pickpocket, a pyromancer, a meek alchemist, a tailor, etc, etc. This variety creates a believable world (within certain parameters) that nurtures diversity, player interaction and, ultimately, fun.

I agree this is where DF fails for me. there is too much of the power route to the top and not enough diversity. i would love to be a bow specialist for instance, but everyone is and theres no skills in it. Or pure casters etc.

---

Originally posted by shukes33
I see your point and have heard it many times.
But like what? what tools does a sandbox need? we all say it and say that games dont have it! but what are they meant to have to make it sandbox?

---

There is no definite answer for this since there is no single way how to make a player living world.

Let's put it in following question: How many people has to be involved to obtain some basic and advanced equippment? How many people do you need so you can 'exist' in DF?

yes i see!

in Darkfall you can survive alone as crafting etc is available to everyone. this doesnt promote community, though as i understand you rely on other crafts to make the higher end items. but then again you could just grind these yourself to make them too.

you couldnt hold a city alone either!

---

Originally posted by shukes33
yes i see!
in Darkfall you can survive alone as crafting etc is available to everyone. this doesnt promote community, though as i understand you rely on other crafts to make the higher end items. but then again you could just grind these yourself to make them too.
you couldnt hold a city alone either!

---

Imho, Darkfall might have neccessary attributes to make a sandbox game but their implementation is bad or the mechanics are not working as they should.

It is still the game where you go, grind mobs for equippment and you are ready to go.

Originally posted by StrixMaxima

Just complementing, sandboxes need to stimulate character individuality and value. If you do not invest in combat skills, you probably have other abilities that can make you desirable in other circumstances. You could be a dagger demon, a sword and board specialist, a lancer, a skirmisher, a pickpocket, a pyromancer, a meek alchemist, a tailor, etc, etc. This variety creates a believable world (within certain parameters) that nurtures diversity, player interaction and, ultimately, fun.

+1...

This is what made the original Star Wars Galaxies a sandbox...

Originally posted by Vyeth

Originally posted by StrixMaxima

Just complementing, sandboxes need to stimulate character individuality and value. If you do not invest in combat skills, you probably have other abilities that can make you desirable in other circumstances. You could be a dagger demon, a sword and board specialist, a lancer, a skirmisher, a pickpocket, a pyromancer, a meek alchemist, a tailor, etc, etc. This variety creates a believable world (within certain parameters) that nurtures diversity, player interaction and, ultimately, fun.

 

+1...

This is what made the original Star Wars Galaxies a sandbox...

The original SWG was the most fun i have had in any mmo, ever. Easily  the most positive experience, ok it had a lot of issues, broken classes etc, but the essence of the game was awesome, do what you want but beware, there might be consequences.

I suppose you can classify DF as a sandbox, but it's a big box with very few grains of sand as opposed to SWG which was a big-ass box overflowing with the stuff.

Originally posted by Hammertime1

Originally posted by dembar

if your stupid enough to mine STONE for ages and then even managed to get killed, this game is not for you.

 

 

 

And that's just the attitude to help retain players in the game.

Hehe, DF is so hardcore, the PvP spreads out of the game and into the forums... hes red now, GET HIM!