First off, im not against PVP. I dont do it, but understand its an option people want in the games of today. But i just get so frustrated when a power or ability is changed due to a part of the game i have no desire to explore.

We all know that in PVP, especially in a open system, in time a "flavor of the month" will  appear.  once a  class or power combo is dominating, then there will be a call to nerf it, and then the vicious circle begins.

I just hope they  can change powers that affect PVP without it affecting the PVE aspect of the game and vica versa.

Again, this is no rant against PVP itself, I respect people that enjoy it, i just dont want PVE gameplay changed because a min/max player has figured out a pvp build that dominates then we see a plethora of these classes.

Heres hoping they can do a good job on both fronts.

Does any MMO do both well?

Originally posted by SwampRob

Does any MMO do both well?

The only one that does is WAR.  =)

To answer the OP.  I don't think the PvP will be that great in Champions Online.  Its pretty much just arena based.  That to me is not great PvP.  Although it is nice to have something.

Originally posted by Manchine

Originally posted by SwampRob

Does any MMO do both well?

The only one that does is WAR.  =)

You mean WAR does neither well.

And I don't think you can serve two masters, unless your game design makes virutally separate powers for each activity.

Since that's rarely the case, one or the other will suffer depending on the preference of the developers.

I thought this game was gonna be great, but once i heard about all the PVP rewards and al lthe PVP u can do in the game you're gonna run into the same thing that i hate in WoW, balancing the powers out for certain "classes" or w/e they're gonna call em i havent checked to see if its like CoH, because of al lthe "whiner-babies" who are like "well this power is better than this, it shouldn't be...blah..blah..blah" and then they site some reference from some comic book they read  and just the whole PvP thing in this game has turned me off to CO.

I PvP only when i want to its not my favorite thing i really only like to play games that have a rich PvE content but don't focus on PvP that much, but still have PvP options. Of course if i play this game im sure i will still go around blowing other ppl up but i think also some ppl will only PvP and grief ppl trying to lvl or do PvE content.....i think we've run into a problem here with Cryptic and their view of what they want to make MMO's into.

Originally posted by Lamarak

We all know that in PVP, especially in a open system, in time a "flavor of the month" will  appear.  once a  class or power combo is dominating, then there will be a call to nerf it, and then the vicious circle begins.

My guess is that this won't be a problem for CO.

CoH suffers terribly from this problem, because unlike other mmos they don't just have a dozen set classes to balance against each other. With all the various combinations of primary and secondary powersets... well I can't actually be bothered figuring it out - but there are LOTS.

CoH also suffers from the fact that the game wasn't designed with PvP in mind - it was added after the fact.

Balance issues should be much less of an issue in CO because:

• players can (with very few limits) pick up any powers they like up to the total of 14 so anyone who really thinks a particular power is just too good, can pick it up themselves
• powers don't come in "sets" like CoH so every single power can be balanced against each other (relatively easy to assess), rather than trying to balance all of the powers in one set against all of the powers in every other set (more complicated)
• PvP was planned

From what i have read,

You will only PvP if you want to. their are special areas where you can go to do battle with other players. Therefore, put your mind at ease since you won't have to PvP for the "BEST" gear

Originally posted by Lamarak

First off, im not against PVP. I dont do it, but understand its an option people want in the games of today. But i just get so frustrated when a power or ability is changed due to a part of the game i have no desire to explore.

We all know that in PVP, especially in a open system, in time a "flavor of the month" will  appear.  once a  class or power combo is dominating, then there will be a call to nerf it, and then the vicious circle begins.

I just hope they  can change powers that affect PVP without it affecting the PVE aspect of the game and vica versa.

Again, this is no rant against PVP itself, I respect people that enjoy it, i just dont want PVE gameplay changed because a min/max player has figured out a pvp build that dominates then we see a plethora of these classes.

Heres hoping they can do a good job on both fronts.

Considering how the Role & Build system works with character creation I doubt that there'll be alot of changes for 'pvp' balance since it'd be utterly retarded to nuke a skill since someone can just throw on a particular role to beef that skill back up again.  

Originally posted by green13

Originally posted by Lamarak

We all know that in PVP, especially in a open system, in time a "flavor of the month" will  appear.  once a  class or power combo is dominating, then there will be a call to nerf it, and then the vicious circle begins.

My guess is that this won't be a problem for CO.

CoH suffers terribly from this problem, because unlike other mmos they don't just have a dozen set classes to balance against each other. With all the various combinations of primary and secondary powersets... well I can't actually be bothered figuring it out - but there are LOTS.

CoH also suffers from the fact that the game wasn't designed with PvP in mind - it was added after the fact.

Balance issues should be much less of an issue in CO because:

• players can (with very few limits) pick up any powers they like up to the total of 14 so anyone who really thinks a particular power is just too good, can pick it up themselves
• powers don't come in "sets" like CoH so every single power can be balanced against each other (relatively easy to assess), rather than trying to balance all of the powers in one set against all of the powers in every other set (more complicated)
• PvP was planned

 

How in your mind does that make it MORE balanced.  This is actually tougher to balance. If you've got 100 skills all with different effects, tiers and strengths, as well as however many other powers used to buff or hold or what have you, and then you give players the ability to pick whatever ones of those powers they want and put them into a single build, it very much doesn't seem to conclude that everything will be balanced.

This will very much be a game where players who want to PvP will pay close attention to the FoTM (as much as I hate the phrase) and continuously exploit whatever power or combination that is.

Originally posted by SwampRob

Does any MMO do both well?

Nope.  PvE unbalances PvP and PvP makes PvE boring.   Try to put both in the game and what you end up with is a game that is unbalanced for both PvP and PvE and boring.

As a PvE oriented player every game with PvP in it has been a huge disappointment.

 Majority usually rules. If more people are pvp'n in CO then yes it will effect pve but I doubt it here for awhile. Now once 50% hit endgame....thats when the trouble begine ;)

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Manchine

Originally posted by SwampRob

Does any MMO do both well?

The only one that does is WAR.  =)

 

You mean WAR does neither well.

No WAR does both well.  Right now its the best Fantasy MMO out there right now.

Originally posted by Manchine

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Manchine

Originally posted by SwampRob

Does any MMO do both well?

The only one that does is WAR.  =)

 

You mean WAR does neither well.

 

No WAR does both well.  Right now its the best Fantasy MMO out there right now.

No, its not.  WOW's better, and I'm no fan of WOW.

WAR is a hollow shell of what it could/should have been.

IMO.

edit: Sigh, did it again, got lured off topic, apologies.

I don't know which way CO leans, but I suspect its more of a PVE oriented game so expect the PVP to be somewhat deficient.

I am not sure why developers do not do this. Why not have two sets of rules for PvP and PvE?

For each skill, there is a PvP description and a PvE description. You can modify the PvP descriptions without effecting the PvE descriptions.

In an example, lets say a power has a root for 2.0s - (1.0s * (Nature Resistance of Target / 50.0)) and deals 100 damage per second. The PvE description will say exactly what is above. The PvP description will be modified because the 100 damage per second is too much along with the root so the PvP description will say:

2.0s - (1.0s * (Nature Resistance of Target / 50.0)) and deals 50 damage per second.

Now, what we have accomplished is that a power will act the same way in PvE as it does in PvP, except now the PvP nerfs/buffs will not effect the PvE game.

Problem solved...not sure why devs will not do this with their games if they contain PvP along with PvE.

Originally posted by Manchine

No WAR does both well.  Right now its the best Fantasy MMO out there right now.

You're kidding right. WAR PvE is completely lacking, shallow, and utterly boring after tier 1.
It's PvP was ok, outside some class balance issues (fucking Bright Wizards can suck my ass)
Too bad PvP didn't really happen outside scenarios, because it wasn't worth it.

Fighting over keeps was pointless and End Game is a joke.

It was lack of fun and enjoyable PVE that really killed the game for me.

edit:
@ Zyllos

I was wondering why they didn't do something that myself.

Originally posted by Lamarak

So will PVP ruin PVE in this game?

News flash... PvP ruins PvE in every game.

Originally posted by Rajen

Originally posted by Lamarak

So will PVP ruin PVE in this game?

 

News flash... PvP ruins PvE in every game.

Guild Wars?

Originally posted by mrcalhou

Originally posted by Rajen

Originally posted by Lamarak

So will PVP ruin PVE in this game?

 

News flash... PvP ruins PvE in every game.

 

Guild Wars?

I liked guild wars.  I also liked WARs PvP.. and I didn't see a major effect of that on PvE.  Yes its my opinion, but I did like WAR... and WAR has much better PvP then WoW

Originally posted by Zyllos

I am not sure why developers do not do this. Why not have two sets of rules for PvP and PvE?

For each skill, there is a PvP description and a PvE description. You can modify the PvP descriptions without effecting the PvE descriptions.

In an example, lets say a power has a root for 2.0s - (1.0s * (Nature Resistance of Target / 50.0)) and deals 100 damage per second. The PvE description will say exactly what is above. The PvP description will be modified because the 100 damage per second is too much along with the root so the PvP description will say:

2.0s - (1.0s * (Nature Resistance of Target / 50.0)) and deals 50 damage per second.

Now, what we have accomplished is that a power will act the same way in PvE as it does in PvP, except now the PvP nerfs/buffs will not effect the PvE game.

Problem solved...not sure why devs will not do this with their games if they contain PvP along with PvE.

Basically all abilities and power need to bypass all level, equipment differences for PvP to be interesting.

Originally posted by Lamarak

First off, im not against PVP. I dont do it, but understand its an option people want in the games of today. But i just get so frustrated when a power or ability is changed due to a part of the game i have no desire to explore.

Without saying too much, currently a lot of the PvP issues in Champions Online are the same issues affecting PvE; so fixing them will help both the PvP and PvE aspects.   We don't really know at this time if something comes up in the future that affects PvP only if the fix will also change the PvE balance or vice versa.

Past experience with the genre in general would have me saying an unfortunate yes.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Manchine

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Manchine

Originally posted by SwampRob

Does any MMO do both well?

The only one that does is WAR.  =)

 

You mean WAR does neither well.

 

No WAR does both well.  Right now its the best Fantasy MMO out there right now.

 

No, its not.  WOW's better, and I'm no fan of WOW.

WAR is a hollow shell of what it could/should have been.

IMO.

edit: Sigh, did it again, got lured off topic, apologies.

I don't know which way CO leans, but I suspect its more of a PVE oriented game so expect the PVP to be somewhat deficient.

 

Its all good I am not the type of person that says my opinion is LAW.  =)  I let people have different opinions unless they are just plain haters.  =)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by lornphoenix

Originally posted by Manchine

No WAR does both well. Right now its the best Fantasy MMO out there right now.

You're kidding right. WAR PvE is completely lacking, shallow, and utterly boring after tier 1.
It's PvP was ok, outside some class balance issues (fucking Bright Wizards can suck my ass)
Too bad PvP didn't really happen outside scenarios, because it wasn't worth it.

Fighting over keeps was pointless and End Game is a joke.

It was lack of fun and enjoyable PVE that really killed the game for me.

edit:
@ Zyllos

I was wondering why they didn't do something that myself.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PvE was FAR from lacking.  Sorry it was great.   PvP is pointless to a point.  Just like in any other game.  I won the keep for 2 hours they will take it so what.  As long as its fun thats all that matters.  Which it is.  I don't know how times I have helped defend the main city.  I have helped fight at the main city once.

WAR is still better then WoW, IMO.  =)

We just have to wait and see how well PvP will be in CO.  I did hear a rumor that some of the PvP will be like Scenerios in WAR.  At any place in CO you can jump to the scenerio and fight then when its done you go back to the spot you were at.

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by green13

Originally posted by Lamarak

We all know that in PVP, especially in a open system, in time a "flavor of the month" will  appear.  once a  class or power combo is dominating, then there will be a call to nerf it, and then the vicious circle begins.

My guess is that this won't be a problem for CO.

CoH suffers terribly from this problem, because unlike other mmos they don't just have a dozen set classes to balance against each other. With all the various combinations of primary and secondary powersets... well I can't actually be bothered figuring it out - but there are LOTS.

CoH also suffers from the fact that the game wasn't designed with PvP in mind - it was added after the fact.

Balance issues should be much less of an issue in CO because:

• players can (with very few limits) pick up any powers they like up to the total of 14 so anyone who really thinks a particular power is just too good, can pick it up themselves
• powers don't come in "sets" like CoH so every single power can be balanced against each other (relatively easy to assess), rather than trying to balance all of the powers in one set against all of the powers in every other set (more complicated)
• PvP was planned

How in your mind does that make it MORE balanced.  This is actually tougher to balance. If you've got 100 skills all with different effects, tiers and strengths, as well as however many other powers used to buff or hold or what have you, and then you give players the ability to pick whatever ones of those powers they want and put them into a single build, it very much doesn't seem to conclude that everything will be balanced. 

This will very much be a game where players who want to PvP will pay close attention to the FoTM (as much as I hate the phrase) and continuously exploit whatever power or combination that is.

This is how.

Trying to judge the effectiveness of an entire set of powers - each with different effects, cooldowns, power costs, ranges etc. against an entire other set of powers, is much more complicated than lining up the individual powers. It's a matter of mathematical simplicity.

A = Z is much easier to assess than A + B + C + D + E + F + G + H + I = Z + Y + X + W + V + U + T + S + R, especially since the latter equation might not just be additive (given different degrees of synergy between individual powers in a set).

There's still some level of qualitative measurement - because you need to compare powers on different dimensions and some of them more easily quantifiable (eg. dps, defence) than others (control) - but balancing individual powers should be easier. Also keep in mind that for most sets (except for power armor) they've also eliminated cooldowns - so that removes an entire factor from the equation.

I don't doubt that there'll be a cookie-cutter effect when it comes to PvP'ers. I can see the equivalent build of a "tank mage" being extremely popular in the arena. But the OP isn't a pvp'er and is worried about the detrimental effects of cries of "nerf that power" on pve - in a game where if you think a power is overpowered you can just pick it up yourself.

CO is inevitably going to be compared to CoH - in which pvp balancing ruined the game for many pve'ers. But on the whole I think CO's game design is more robust on this point.

This is how.

Trying to judge the effectiveness of an entire set of powers - each with different effects, cooldowns, power costs, ranges etc. against an entire other set of powers, is much more complicated than lining up the individual powers. It's a matter of mathematical simplicity.

A = Z is much easier to assess than A + B + C + D + E + F + G + H + I = Z + Y + X + W + V + U + T + S + R, especially since the latter equation might not just be additive (given different degrees of synergy between individual powers in a set).

There's still some level of qualitative measurement - because you need to compare powers on different dimensions and some of them more easily quantifiable (eg. dps, defence) than others (control) - but balancing individual powers should be easier. Also keep in mind that for most sets (except for power armor) they've also eliminated cooldowns - so that removes an entire factor from the equation.

I don't doubt that there'll be a cookie-cutter effect when it comes to PvP'ers. I can see the equivalent build of a "tank mage" being extremely popular in the arena. But the OP isn't a pvp'er and is worried about the detrimental effects of cries of "nerf that power" on pve - in a game where if you think a power is overpowered you can just pick it up yourself.

CO is inevitably going to be compared to CoH - in which pvp balancing ruined the game for many pve'ers. But on the whole I think CO's game design is more robust on this point.

 

Heh, not really.  Instead of trying to balance an individual power within a small sphere of companion powers.  Your trying to balance each power while keeping in mind how that power meshes with every combination of powers available in the game.  That is incredibly more difficult.

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Originally posted by comerb

This is how.

Trying to judge the effectiveness of an entire set of powers - each with different effects, cooldowns, power costs, ranges etc. against an entire other set of powers, is much more complicated than lining up the individual powers. It's a matter of mathematical simplicity.

A = Z is much easier to assess than A + B + C + D + E + F + G + H + I = Z + Y + X + W + V + U + T + S + R, especially since the latter equation might not just be additive (given different degrees of synergy between individual powers in a set).

There's still some level of qualitative measurement - because you need to compare powers on different dimensions and some of them more easily quantifiable (eg. dps, defence) than others (control) - but balancing individual powers should be easier. Also keep in mind that for most sets (except for power armor) they've also eliminated cooldowns - so that removes an entire factor from the equation.

I don't doubt that there'll be a cookie-cutter effect when it comes to PvP'ers. I can see the equivalent build of a "tank mage" being extremely popular in the arena. But the OP isn't a pvp'er and is worried about the detrimental effects of cries of "nerf that power" on pve - in a game where if you think a power is overpowered you can just pick it up yourself.

CO is inevitably going to be compared to CoH - in which pvp balancing ruined the game for many pve'ers. But on the whole I think CO's game design is more robust on this point.

 

 

Heh, not really.  Instead of trying to balance an individual power within a small sphere of companion powers.  Your trying to balance each power while keeping in mind how that power meshes with every combination of powers available in the game.  That is incredibly more difficult.

This man makes a solid point. Green, your idea would work if it was A=B=C=D , but instead it will be more A>B B<C C=F F<Z because as they've said, there are tiers and ranks to powers. In the end, will it effect PvE?  Of course it will... they won't have separate rules, no game should have separate rules for PvP and PvE... will it RUIN the game? Well to the OP I guess  you'd have to ask yourself, what makes good PvE?  Also remember.... this is primarily a PvE game, so if anything... it will probably be the other way around