Hmm.  Not too sure how to start this one one, but I've been reading a lot of threads lately.  Many of these are about what should come to mmos or are what people want in existing/upcoming mmos.  What's been, for lack of a better word, pissing me off is how perfectly reasonable conversations turn into fights because some hardcore or elitist hops in and denounces every single thing every previous poster.. posted.

Now, I have no problems with either hardcore or casual players.  Sure, I dislike hardcores getting everything (because, of course, they are hardcore, they'll put in that 72 hour stretch straight to get that damn item) and casuals normally get me killed more often (although death has never really bothered me, unless I tell someone how to not get us killed... eight times before I finally say screw it and leave).

The problem I do find is how no one seems to even listen to what they say and do.  Now what I basically am talking about is grind, although that isn't my specific focus, it's what is most prevailent in these fights.  Often, it'll start with a casual gamer complaining about how it's too hard to get exp.  This is understandable (I'm being serious all you hardcores) considering many people can't be hardcore (what with, you know, having a life).  This will then escalate into how it's already way too easy to level/do anything in the game and to basically shut up and take it.

Now, I'm going to switch over from grinding (which was just to state how most opinions end up being shown on here) and move over to end game.  This is where many people start complaining again, mainly about how "It used to be so much more difficult, the raid is on easy mode now".  With this in mind, I ask why does the hardcore crowd complain so often (or at least tell others that their complaints of difficulty are unfounded) when they have an easy option for more challange sitting right in front of them.

Sounds far fetched, I know, but theres a bunch of people who sit at end game (like me, complaining about how no one will group with them) that are good enough to do these raids.  Sure, they may only be fairly casual, and won't put out the dps your looking for, but if your looking for that kind of dps, you are looking for easy mode, and you are finding it.  Want more difficulty, invite someone who isn't completely geared.  Why?  Because you'll have it a bit tougher (although I'm sure with everyone else having three times the dps you would need, you'll be fine) and the person you invite has a chance to actually learn the fights with the possibility of some gear.

Again, my post descends into me complaining about the hardcore few bashing on the casuals (I'm somewhere in the middle, as a casual player who plays whatever games he's playing 18 hours a day....).  The post was mainly brought on by these fights that erupt reminding me of my time in WoW, having more dps than was needed a month ago for naxx but not getting invites because the fully geared group who can do it with 6 people if they wanted will not invite me because "I've never been there before".  How am I suppose to get 'there' (ie, anywhere raids do go that I haven't been) if the groups that run them only allow people who have been 'there'...

And on my final note, I say not all great battles are made by the devs, sometimes the player has to bring some challange as well.

I guess some people really needs to learn to get along, no matter how different they are . So many thinks the "best" is the way they are doing and don't even try to understand what the opponant have to say. This ends usually in MMOs in endless arguments, discussions, flames ...

I guess Its like trying to an get agreement from the opposite political party irl.

Well - you switch between talking about generalities and specifics - but I'll talk about each in turn.

Firstly - if a particular group of people don't want to take you to Naxx then tough luck - it's up to them who they take, and if they don't want you, for one reason or another, then you should look for another group (or even organise your own). They probably only want geared people, since that makes for quicker, safer runs. There are probably plenty of groups doing Naxx with lower entry standards - often all you need is a good word from a friend you made whilst you did heroics etc...

Secondly - the people who are complaining about the game being too easy don't run Naxx any more. Hence any experience you had with a Naxx group is pretty much irrelevant to your general point. Since you are talking about two quite different groups of people.

And thirdly, the group who complain about the game being too easy aren't saying "There is nothing hard in the game". Any guild can find hard stuff to do. The problem is that almost all the hard stuff is in a single place (Ulduar), and many raiders are getting sick to death of the place - since for most skilled players, hardcore or not, the "world" of warcraft has ended up becoming very small.

And lastly, part of what raiders enjoy about hardcore raiding is the attitude that comes with it. The "we will do what it takes" and "that boss will drop no matter how many times we have to wipe learning him". The attitude where everyone is focused and trying to push themselves that extra amount. Yes - they could take newbies along to make it harder - but why would they - because the newbies would completely spoil that attitude. Anyone who raids has already experienced what happens if you bring the wrong people along to a raid - whining about wipes - whining about how long it's taking - whining about gear rolls. It's just not worth it.

Suppose some raiders invited you along. Suppose due to being a noob, you cause 3 wipes. Those wipes cost each raider 50g in repairs. They also cost each person 30 minutes of time. There are 24 other people in the raid - so let's do some maths.

Cost of bringing you = 1200g + 12 hours play time accross the raid.

So you're really walking up to people and asking them to give you 1200g and 12 hours of time for nothing? No wonder you're getting the cold shoulder. If you want to raid, then show you can contribute. If you can't do that, then don't bother.

I'm not saying take some fresh 80 into a Naxx run.  I can raid, I may not be top notch, but I don't suck.  I know my class and I know what I'm doing, but because I haven't been there before I'm given the cold shoulder.  I'm saying the requirements for people to join raids have gone up with how well that group is geared.  I wouldn't be carried through these runs, nor would I be riding on anyones coattails, I'm simply saying that all the people who organize these 'events' have such strict requirements, and by having them requirements they are making it encredibly easy on themselves and incredibly difficult on others attempting to get into raids.  I'm also not saying there aren't difficult raids or bosses, only saying that the majority ofthe people I see post on here after someone complaining about how difficult many things are normally listing off a bunch of the stuff that is now on 'easy mode'.  If it's on easy mode, then I don't see why taking a decent albeit undergeared in 'their' terms player along into these places.

And on the get the word of a friend note.  I really haven't made any friends doing heroics.  Normally I get into a group with 4 people from the same guild who just need a fifth, even a mediocre one.  We barely talk, we might joke a little (or I try to, to attempt to lighten the strict mode that always ensues from these groups) but generally, we rush the roic, get through, disband without much in the way of conversation.  I doubt they even would remember my name if the next day I asked for a vouch.

Originally posted by baptman

I guess some people really needs to learn to get along, no matter how different they are . So many thinks the "best" is the way they are doing and don't even try to understand what the opponant have to say. This ends usually in MMOs in endless arguments, discussions, flames ...

I guess Its like trying to an get agreement from the opposite political party irl.

Why? The whole point of the internet is that you can let out your inner demon and flame in peace.

People are not trying to understand their opponents. They are trying to crush them with their words. This is the new gladiator ring in the 21st century.

One important aspect of games which feature advancement is that you need people at both ends of the curve. You need people at top in order for others to aspire to be better. You also need people at the bottom who themself aspire to become better or more accomplished.  Those who are above them can also feel good about themselves because they are a little bit of ahead.

Achievement and success lose their meaning if they are common place. More uncommon, more attractive they are. It is a bit like beauty, I suppose.

Most people who are really well geared don't run Naxx. There are small numbers that do - but most Naxx runs that take place are full of people who are still at least partly in heroic type gear and are still gearing up.

It sounds to me like the OP got rejected from a couple of groups and decided to come here and moan. What he should have done is just found a different group or even make his own - after all - if these groups are setting their gear requirements too high, then there should be large numbers of other Naxx rejects around, and making a group should be easy.

He should also bare in mind that at least some of these groups demanding high achievements and skill levels are run by skillless kiddies who want to be carried through the content. They demand players better than themselves, because that's what they need to make up for their own inadequacies. So don't feel bad about rejection.

Solo gamers don’t want to have to group at any stage of the game, it is too much effort for them it seems.

We cannot ‘all get along’ what we obviously want is to play different MMO’s or on servers with different rules.

No one argues here that a player who is a FPS shooter fan should like RTS online do they? While we are all playing online that is all that we have in common, that we are playing online. We want it played a different way, lets accept that and call for different servers and MMO play styles.

I have argued before that there may be a way to suit us all, but I am increasingly thinking we just need to accept we want differant play styles.

Originally posted by Scot

Solo gamers don’t want to have to group at any stage of the game, it is too much effort for them it seems.

We cannot ‘all get along’ what we obviously want is to play different MMO’s or on servers with different rules.

No one argues here that a player who is a FPS shooter fan should like RTS online do they? While we are all playing online that is all that we have in common, that we are playing online. We want it played a different way, lets accept that and call for different servers and MMO play styles.

I have argued before that there may be a way to suit us all, but I am increasingly thinking we just need to accept we want differant play styles.

That's all fine, but whereas you'd laugh at a person who wants to play an FPS showing up on an RTS and demanding they cater to him, why do pro-groupers show up on solo-friendly games and demand that the game ought to cater to them?    When the pro-groupers can demonstrate they are a viable demographic for a game to cater to, then they'll get games catering to them.  Until they can do that, why are they surprised when they don't have many grouping-only games out there?

Besides, I don't know of many solo gamers who never group.  They do when they need to, when they don't, they don't.  Personally, I'm not going to go through all the time-wasting hassle to get a group of people together for a PUG when they'll all be self-centered little jerks who only want to use everyone else for their own reward.  I can go solo and have a lot more fun, unless there's a specific target that I cannot take out myself.

Groups just use each other.  That's how games are set up.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Besides, I don't know of many solo gamers who never group.  They do when they need to, when they don't, they don't.  Personally, I'm not going to go through all the time-wasting hassle to get a group of people together for a PUG when they'll all be self-centered little jerks who only want to use everyone else for their own reward.  I can go solo and have a lot more fun, unless there's a specific target that I cannot take out myself.

Groups just use each other.  That's how games are set up.

It's silly to think that all people all like that. One good thing that comes out from grouping is thta players have to be nice to each other, or they'll be kicked. Help the group = help yourself. That's how good group games are set up.

Achievements ruined the game

Read this thread for the official forums:

http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=9521351254&sid=1&pageNo=1

Brief summary - someone decided to prove that it is still perfectly possible to get into raiding without achievements. In one month, without making use of any pre-existing contacts, they went from a new 80 to having cleared Ulduar.

It was not my intent to single out naxx, I was only using it as an example, and the same thing goes for WoW in general. I phrased everything so WoW wasn't said (even if it was conveyed, because that's what I played). Again, I didn't come here to moan about not being allowed into groups, I said that the threads I've been reading lately reminded me of the times where I couldn't get a group because of said high standards. I understand the need behind these standards, either because someone wishes an easy run because they are under geared or have no actual 'skill' or because they just plain want a quick run to get in and get out.

On the achievement note, I do feel they hampered the game a bit, but not not in general, only to me.  I have ocd wich means I spend stupid amounts of time trying to get achievements that don't matter or help in any way.  To the general masses, achievements are great because dailies are boring.. it gives them something to do.

To those that say start my own group I could, but I can never get up the courage to do so.  Being anonymous doesn't quell my feeling of shyness, and I still spend an inordinate amount of time polishing my words so I don't sound like a retard or offend anyone.  As an example of this I'll just say I spent enough time with a horrible group in Heroic Utgarde Keep that we had respawns 4 times, and I had to repair all my equipment from broken thrice.  It was primarily the healers fault (not technically his/her fault but rather they were undergeared badly and couldn't put out the healing needed).  Everyone was asking why we were wiping so much but I didn't want to offend the healer so I said nothing, and since I know nothing of healing I couldn't offer any advice.

I've never been fond of taking the responsibility of forming a group together because that implies me being the leader, at least for a short amount of time, and while I can lead, I like having someone else take that responsiblity (someone who may actually know what they are doing, whereas I'm just a faceless thug (dps) with enough intelligence to understand when you say stand there, don't jump, jump, hide).

This does limit me, and yes these faults are all on my end, but this post was just meant to ask why a group can't pull a mediocre raider with them.  If I don't suck you've got a run that takes only a little longer (because I'm not quite up to facerolling standards).  If I actually do suck, it is easy enough to boot me, and it still only means your run takes a little longer.

On a side note, I do have enough gold to actually pay you for your efforts if you feel I was inadequate, and the 'fear/dislike' of rep bills and time requirements to me seems a bit weak for a reason of me not being invited...

Originally posted by Talraekk

Again, my post descends into me complaining about the hardcore few bashing on the casuals (I'm somewhere in the middle, as a casual player who plays whatever games he's playing 18 hours a day....).  The post was mainly brought on by these fights that erupt reminding me of my time in WoW, having more dps than was needed a month ago for naxx but not getting invites because the fully geared group who can do it with 6 people if they wanted will not invite me because "I've never been there before".  How am I suppose to get 'there' (ie, anywhere raids do go that I haven't been) if the groups that run them only allow people who have been 'there'...

And on my final note, I say not all great battles are made by the devs, sometimes the player has to bring some challange as well.

The ego of some kids in WoW are appropriate for their age. The solution for this is to join a guild that helps their members to be prepared for raids. In WoW, looking for groups for normal dungeons is different than looking for raid groups.