Here is an interesting article saying that half of MMO gamers have bought virtual stuff before. Its no wonder that nearly every MMOG is starting to have a RMT shop in one form or another.

Originally posted by korat102

Originally posted by green13

It'll be interesting to see if they manage to make enough from item sales to make up for all the people who would have played but won't because of the microtransactions.

 

Half a dozen avid forum participants you mean? I can't honestly see the vast majority of gamers out there giving two hoots about it. We'll just have to see how it all works out. Personally, I'm going to give CO a try, just got very tired of CoX, hoping for something a little different this time round.

Apparently you  missed this:  www.misterpoll.com/polls/442766/results  With 1000 voters, that is pretty overwhelming that it isn't a "half dozen avid forum participants".

Originally posted by Aganazer

Here is an interesting article saying that half of MMO gamers have bought virtual stuff before. Its no wonder that nearly every MMOG is starting to have a RMT shop in one form or another.

Nice job being incredibly vague about what that really means. If you look at the article, it says 12% of Americans have bought virtual items in the last 12 months. I would assume something similar applies to the rest of the Western population. That 46% is highly scewed by Eastern markets in which RMT is well established and accepted.

Originally posted by colettak

I was so excited to play this game.  A bunch of my friends were going to get it, because it looked great.  But now I definitely won't be buying it, and I'm sure many others feel the same way.

I agree with the person who said it is disturbing that people want to pay to NOT play the game.  It seems to me that any game that goes to a cash shop for useful items is admitting that it has broken game mechanics.  Is it too much of a chore to get that special object?  Just buy it then. 

Really?  I thought the point of a game was to have fun.  If it's not fun to get items, then your game is broken.  Now, obeviously, this isn't just a problem with cash shop games.  A lot of mmo's have issues with things getting too chore-like, and I think that's why my interest is waning on the games.  Why should something take you 100 hours to complete in the first place?  

A broken game mechanic is that time, not skill, lets you get cool stuff.  Cash shops are a response to this broken gameplay.  Companies are realizing that people are being turned off by the fact that teenage kids with nothing to do excel at the game, whereas they never will have the time to be equals.  So now you can buy your way to equality.  Why not just make the game fun?

Again though, this is a solution to something that is broken -- if they just fixed the root of the problem, it wouldn't be necessary.

Make getting objects require skill.  Why is it that in real sports and games, you can usually tell who is better at it.  I can look at someone playing basketball and know if they are better or worse than me.  If you look at an mmo, you can see their gear and all you can assume is that they have more or less time to spend on the game.  That's ridiculous.

People say that game companies do this because it allows them to make more money -- more time spent equals more cash flow.  However, why not make more time spent be solely for the purpose of gaining more skill in the game.  If you make an mmorpg's game mechanics based on skill at the game --  strategy, for instance -- you've made a much more fun game.  Because it is fun to try and get better at something -- even if you fail then, you know it isn't because you need better GEAR, it's because you just need to practice a little bit more.  Then, when you finally get that epic sword, it'll be because you actually earned it.  Not through playing 100 easy hours, but by playing long enough to get good enough that you finally were able to beat it.

If it takes you 100 hours to get that good, fine.  But if someone has more skill, it might only take them 50 hours to get good.  Or you could have someone amazing who is able to fly through it straight away.  This creates a world that is more fun, because there's actually a chance you can be the best. 

The problem, of course, is that you have to get rid of some of the basic mechanics of mmo's for this to work.  Levels and skills don't really make sense.  They could be integrated with some thought, though. 

The biggest problem, then, is that it's so much harder to develop a system like this.  So it probably won't be done for a long time.

But in a world based on skill, where the battling and acquiring of objects is fun, you won't need microtransactions.  But it'll be a long time until we see a game like that, so instead we're stuck playing games that are going to become unbalanced, or worse, have community mandated "required" things to buy.  But that last idea sounds great to the game developer trying to make money. 

They have tried to do this with the FPS MMOs and some RTS MMOs and a few others... and the problem with them is that they do not have the retention rate that the current MMORPG model has...

Originally posted by Yunbei

I don't know, but do you take everything so... guileless? I mean seriously, maybe you are born rich, but some people are not. Plus, it is a severe change in the games we like, so why should we not complain over something we think is bad? Do you accpet so easy everthing? It is about paying twice. If that is no reason to complain, I dunno what is?

It is not that companies never listened. Customer decisions can influence companies. It doesn't always work, but we can try, right? If you give up trying thats fine, but thats no reason to make fun of those who try what they can to prevent a rip off. Yes, that may be little, yes just voicing our opinion here may be weak compared to the company power, but we at least try to do something about what we think is wrong. What did you do, beside calling people who complain over a scam than calling them whiners?

Man, it must be cool to be rich, but maybe you understand not everyone is, ok?

Wow... Just wow...

I am not rich. I do make ok money, but I am also supporting a gf who is finishing her second degree. car, house, bills, etc.. With everything I have to pay I basically live paycheck to paycheck. I understand that not everyone is rich, but if you can afford to raid, grind, or even just play for 5-7 hours a day (including organisation time) then complaining that you are poor seems kind of ironic to me. With that extra time I can:

a) put in overtime... make more money

b) find a better job... make more money

c) find a second job... make more money

d) start your own business... make more money(maybe).

When I was younger I could keep up with that raiding schedule. I was one of the first in my guild in WoW to hit full T1 early on... I can't do that these days. In order to keep everything in my life afloat I cannot dedicate that kind of time. If I can play 2 hours a day, there is a lot of content that I just cannot do regularly. Especially if games keep up this trend of instance lockouts to prevent farming.

Someone mentioned how the people with money but no time or skill are envious of the people who do have it... I am not envious, and I won't buy items because I envy someone who has that much time on their hands... actually, I feel kind of sorry for them, as they obviously aren't doing much else. I will buy items so that I can progress myself, and have fun with the content that I can do with my time limitations.

Just one more thought, then I will stop.  I think people are missing a key factor. Say I play 6 hours, from 7pm to 1am... That means that instead of leaving at 7 from work, I have to leave at 5 or 5:30... I also won't be at work for 8, not if I am only going to bed at 1... so I could raid for 6 hours, or I could make an extra 3 hours worth of money, pay $5 for whatever I was raiding for, and play for 2 hours with no pressure... Now if you are making $7 an hour, maybe you don't care about the 3 hours... that also explains why you have 6 hours to raid... When you are making $15 an hour? $20? more? The question becomes, what is the cost of raiding or grinding vs. the cost of buying something equivalent...

Originally posted by Abrahmm

 

Did you know that EQ and EQ2 have microtransactions?

Did you know that people were really really pissed when SOE introduced micro transactions to EQ and EQ2?

I don't need to wait and see. I despise even the idea of microtransactions, RMT, or whatever, and will never participate in a game that contains them.

I'm not going to bother adressing your murder analogy, although it was worth a really good laugh. I do want to toss a "Did you know" into this mix...

Did you know that SOE has been making a killing off the RMT? I guess people weren't THAT pissed...

Originally posted by vesavius

I don't see any reason to jump off the deep end yet. I seriously doubt its going to be anything remotely resembling "pay to achieve".

This is obviously exactly that though;

"3) If a microtransaction does have any sort of in game effect, then it can be also be earned in game."

By definition.

 

They haven't said that they will have MTs with game effect, all they said was that IF they do, then they will make sure that it can be gotten in the game also. All they've done there is covered their asses in case they do decide to add something in there in the future, cause if they didn't put that in and one day they decided to put something up, everyone would flip out. There may be game affecting items, there may not be... Personally I don't really care much either way, and if I did care I would still wait to see whether or not there was anything to care about... This could all just be a completely moot point.

Originally posted by Scot

Costume items are fluff, anything which makes your toon better than some one else's is not. We are going to see more and more of this as MMO companies put revenue before the high standard of fairplay they have maintained so far.

The idea that you will get more money for development, well the proof of that fallacy will come in a years time. You will see that July 2009 to Jul 2010 will bring no more additional content than July 2008 to July 2009.

Vote with your feet, either now on principle or in a years time if you really think this is not all about making more profit. 

As long as it brings no less, since much of the game was made, updated, or implemented in that period. ;)

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Apparently you  missed this:  www.misterpoll.com/polls/442766/results  With 1000 voters, that is pretty overwhelming that it isn't a "half dozen avid forum participants".

LOL! I bet you could make a similar poll asking questions like:

• Do you want all your games to be free?
• Does spending money on something effect your purchasing habits?
• Do you think credit card companies should charge interest on outstanding debt?
• Is Obama really an Islamic illegal alien bent on the destruction of America?

That would be a great poll! I wonder how people would respond... Maybe companies will start giving their products away for free as long as people would prefer it. Maybe Obama will finally admit that he is a terrorist.

/sarcasm off

Some other interesting info...

• $992 million -- Microtransactions or sales of virtual goods in virtual worlds in 2008, worldwide
• $1.8 billion -- Estimated microtransactions or sales of virtual goods in virtual worlds in 2009, worldwide
• $200 million -- Amount of virtual goods purchased in the U.S. in 2008.
• $30 million to $40 million -- Facebook's estimated annual virtual-gift revenue

Looks like a booming market to me.

Originally posted by Mors-Subita

Originally posted by vesavius

I don't see any reason to jump off the deep end yet. I seriously doubt its going to be anything remotely resembling "pay to achieve".

This is obviously exactly that though;

"3) If a microtransaction does have any sort of in game effect, then it can be also be earned in game."

By definition.

 

 

They haven't said that they will have MTs with game effect, all they said was that IF they do, then they will make sure that it can be gotten in the game also. All they've done there is covered their asses in case they do decide to add something in there in the future

Please tell me your not really this naive in real life?

Originally posted by Aganazer

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Apparently you  missed this:  www.misterpoll.com/polls/442766/results  With 1000 voters, that is pretty overwhelming that it isn't a "half dozen avid forum participants".

 

• $992 million -- Microtransactions or sales of virtual goods in virtual worlds in 2008, worldwide
• $1.8 billion -- Estimated microtransactions or sales of virtual goods in virtual worlds in 2009, worldwide
• $200 million -- Amount of virtual goods purchased in the U.S. in 2008.
• $30 million to $40 million -- Facebook's estimated annual virtual-gift revenue

Looks like a booming market to me.

Booming market? Well, so is crack, but I don't really have a high opinion of people who choose to use it.

The popularity of ingame rewards via MT is irrelevant to this discussion though, only the impact it has on games matters. If I was the only one in the world to hate the way it actually destroys games (in the truest defintion of what a  'game' is), I would still hate it. The only people who should really care about how many people do or don't like this insidious revenue model should be the share holders of the companies using it.

All we need to ask ourselves, as gamers, is what do we value most... that nice cloak we won/ earned or that nice cloak we bought with RL money? Which gives us most satisfaction to wear and use?  Which are we most proud of?

I personally know my own answer to this.

Originally posted by vesavius

Originally posted by Mors-Subita

Originally posted by vesavius

I don't see any reason to jump off the deep end yet. I seriously doubt its going to be anything remotely resembling "pay to achieve".

This is obviously exactly that though;

"3) If a microtransaction does have any sort of in game effect, then it can be also be earned in game."

By definition.

 

 

They haven't said that they will have MTs with game effect, all they said was that IF they do, then they will make sure that it can be gotten in the game also. All they've done there is covered their asses in case they do decide to add something in there in the future

 

Please tell me your not really this naive in real life?

You're welcome to say that Roper is lying, but that is exactly what he said. Of course if you always assume that every MMOG interview is all lies, then its equally likely that any and all MMOGs will have game effecting MT's. Hey, just because your paranoid doesn't mean they aren't all setting up their MT systems as we speak.

Ten Ton Hammer: It seems like a main concern centers on the notion that MTs can potentially negate the efforts of tackling high-end content, or that you might be removing certain ‘carrots’ in the game.

Bill Roper: Absolutely not. The thing is there will be a lot of things we’ll never micro-transact. And one of the things we put out there – less because it’s planned, and more because it’s making sure people understood it – was the fact that if we were to ever put anything out that did have a game effect, there would be a way to earn it. I think that’s really important.

Originally posted by Aganazer

Originally posted by vesavius

Originally posted by Mors-Subita

Originally posted by vesavius

I don't see any reason to jump off the deep end yet. I seriously doubt its going to be anything remotely resembling "pay to achieve".

This is obviously exactly that though;

"3) If a microtransaction does have any sort of in game effect, then it can be also be earned in game."

By definition.

 

 

They haven't said that they will have MTs with game effect, all they said was that IF they do, then they will make sure that it can be gotten in the game also. All they've done there is covered their asses in case they do decide to add something in there in the future

 

Please tell me your not really this naive in real life?

 

You're welcome to say that Roper is lying, but that is exactly what he said. Of course if you always assume that every MMOG interview is all lies, then its equally likely that any and all MMOGs will have game effecting MT's. Hey, just because your paranoid doesn't mean they aren't all setting up their MT systems as we speak.

Ten Ton Hammer: It seems like a main concern centers on the notion that MTs can potentially negate the efforts of tackling high-end content, or that you might be removing certain ‘carrots’ in the game.

Bill Roper: Absolutely not. The thing is there will be a lot of things we’ll never micro-transact. And one of the things we put out there – less because it’s planned, and more because it’s making sure people understood it – was the fact that if we were to ever put anything out that did have a game effect, there would be a way to earn it. I think that’s really important.

/shrug...

This is just vague non committal double speak as damage control. The only hard fact he gives in that interview quote is that the items sold that DO have game effecting abilities will also be able to be won through playing.

They have blatantly left the door open to put any item in the game they wish as MT, and that open door will be used. You would definitly be naive to think it wouldnt be if it leads them to a pot of gold.

That all aside, I have a strong dislike for any in game reward being available via RL money, game effecting or not, because it fundamentally attacks the nature of a game for noone's benefit except the bank account of the shareholder. None of this is being done to make the game better for the player, none of it is being done to make things more 'fun'. It's just done to exploit player weakness (especially addiction weakness) to wring additional revenue out of the gullible.

I don't, and won't, give my money to any company that sells in game rewards for RL cash. I simply prefer to play to achieve. Optional additional services are fine, but never in game rewards. This is just how I feel.

Originally posted by Aganazer

Originally posted by vesavius

Originally posted by Mors-Subita

Originally posted by vesavius

I don't see any reason to jump off the deep end yet. I seriously doubt its going to be anything remotely resembling "pay to achieve".

This is obviously exactly that though;

"3) If a microtransaction does have any sort of in game effect, then it can be also be earned in game."

By definition.

 

 

They haven't said that they will have MTs with game effect, all they said was that IF they do, then they will make sure that it can be gotten in the game also. All they've done there is covered their asses in case they do decide to add something in there in the future

 

Please tell me your not really this naive in real life?

 

You're welcome to say that Roper is lying, but that is exactly what he said. Of course if you always assume that every MMOG interview is all lies, then its equally likely that any and all MMOGs will have game effecting MT's. Hey, just because your paranoid doesn't mean they aren't all setting up their MT systems as we speak.

Ten Ton Hammer: It seems like a main concern centers on the notion that MTs can potentially negate the efforts of tackling high-end content, or that you might be removing certain ‘carrots’ in the game.

Bill Roper: Absolutely not. The thing is there will be a lot of things we’ll never micro-transact. And one of the things we put out there – less because it’s planned, and more because it’s making sure people understood it – was the fact that if we were to ever put anything out that did have a game effect, there would be a way to earn it. I think that’s really important.

Aganazer,  I don't need to explain the reasons how I know this, but both I know and you know that what Cryptic has said and what they'll deliver are two different things, if this was a different forum I could easily point out what I mean.  

Since we don't know what the microtransactions are, its tough to say if they are gamechanging or not.. but I can tell you, anything with stats is gamechanging.  

Oh and hey look at these stats

http://internet-filter-review.toptenreviews.com/internet-pornography-statistics.html

maybe cryptic should make naked avatars instead, it looks like that would generate even MORE money then costume MTs hmm?

Originally posted by vesavius

They have blatantly left the door open to put any item in the game they wish as MT, and that open door will be used. You would definitly be naive to think it wouldnt be if it leads them to a pot of gold.

That all aside, I have a strong dislike for any in game reward being available via RL money, game effecting or not, because it fundamentally attacks the nature of a game for noone's benefit except the bank account of the shareholder. None of this is being done to make the game better for the player, none of it is being done to make things more 'fun'. It's just done to exploit player weakness (especially addiction weakness) to wring additional revenue out of the gullible.

I don't think I agree that MT's only purpose is to increase revenue and that it won't make the game any better. There are a TON of ways for a MMOG to increase revenue. Why don't people get mad about any of these? Aren't they all done for the sake of greed?

• They could spend less to develop the game. It doesn't make anyone mad if a developer announces that their game only cost 20 million to make when others cost 80 million. Its obviously going to increase their profit margin by quite a bit.
   
• They could sell expansions. Are people getting mad that Blizzard used our subscription money to develop expansions? They easily could have released all that new content for free, but they didn't. They held back on us and decided to sell it to us instead.
   
• They could spend less on continued development. Its expensive to maintain all those developers after release. Is it unethical to have only 20 people working on the game rather than 50?
   
• They could stop marketting and advertising. Have you seen anyone say "I quit because I don't see banner ads for your game anymore"?

You see that there are many ways to tweak the profit margin. A company could decide to increase their profit margin without MT's. They could just as easily decide to invest all their profits into continued development for the game. They have the power to do these things either with or without MT's.

There is one thing that is common business sense. If a product is profitable then you invest more money into it. If its not profitable then you invest less money (or no money) in it. Having MT's makes a game more profitable so it must contribute to the possibility of continued development. In another thread I called it 'trickle down superpowers' because the reasoning is similar to trickle down economics. If the game is profitable then they are more likely to spend the money to improve it.

What you're suggesting, vesavius, is that increasing profits will have no effect on continued development. Do you really believe that?

Regardless, it will be a shame not to check it out. Next to DDO and Spellborn it has one of the better combat systems. It also has a great open world feel and loads of different things to do and lots of freedom in character development. It probably would have had quite a bit more lifespan than Spellborn did. BTW, I joined your guild shortly after you quit Spellborn. The first thing I did was ask where vesavius is and they said you stopped playing.

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Oh and hey look at these stats

http://internet-filter-review.toptenreviews.com/internet-pornography-statistics.html

maybe cryptic should make naked avatars instead, it looks like that would generate even MORE money then costume MTs hmm?

 

LOL thats hilarious!

Hey quit following me. I feel like I have a masked weasel stalker. jk Don't you have some BETA testing to do? I think Ashem would like to get to MC tonight.

Originally posted by Aganazer

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Oh and hey look at these stats

http://internet-filter-review.toptenreviews.com/internet-pornography-statistics.html

maybe cryptic should make naked avatars instead, it looks like that would generate even MORE money then costume MTs hmm?

 

 

LOL thats hilarious!

Hey quit following me. I feel like I have a masked weasel stalker. jk Don't you have some BETA testing to do? I think Ashem would like to get to MC tonight.

:D Oh he'll be testing alright.  And as you know from other threads how much I hate MTs I must follow everyone around so's that I can complain.  If I don't I have to complain to myself and I'm tired of hearing it!

Originally posted by wesjr

People act like this isn't how life works...

 

Go buy a new car, want all the options?  You pay extra for it...

Goto a Movie, want popcorn or a soda?  You pay extra for it...

Goto Dinner, want desert?  You pay extra for it....

Got cable TV?  Want HBO, ST or pay preview?  You guessed it you pay extra for it...

 

 

I could go on and on ...

you could go on and on but please don't as most of those aren't related in any way
 

a game with a subscription means i am constantly paying for access to the game and ALL its bits and pieces - - - now if i had to say, pay a quarter every five mintues to continue watching the movie your statements would make sense - - -  hmmm but maybe you go to movies where you have to pay 25 cents every few minutes :)

While RMT isn't a dealbreaker for me, it does have me "concerned"

But you do know who we have to blame for this. Gold-buyer, of course. Yup, those same people we've been pissed about for years. The guys that go to these companies and purchase, levels, characters and in game money for real cash. It was only a matter of time before developers started trying to get that money for themselves.

I'm wondering, how many people complaining on this thread, have used these companies?

I am a, "don't have time" player. I don't have a ton of time to play my MMOs, But I enjoy them for what they are. I don't care about having the best gear unless I earned it, and I don't care about having the highest level unless I worked to get there. People need to not be so proud of the reward, and learn to take pride in the work they did to earn it.

In any event, those who feel they have to purchase content because they "don't have time" Need to find a different hobby. Because if anyone walks away from the MMO genre, I don't want it to be those of us that understand how the games are supposed to be played.

The issue isn't casual play or cost, the issue is Cryptic is too greedy. How can people still not get that? i don't care what toys your cyber-dolly has, I don't even care how you aquired them. I care that Cryptic is trying to combine the worst of two payment models at the expense of the players.

Originally posted by Irishoak

The issue isn't casual play or cost, the issue is Cryptic is too greedy. How can people still not get that? i don't care what toys your cyber-dolly has, I don't even care how you aquired them. I care that Cryptic is trying to combine the worst of two payment models at the expense of the players.

This is what I've been saying on the other forums as well, but it falls on deaf ears.. when people get excited they want what they want nomatter how bad it is, and cryptic/atari exploited that.  Thats why people defend things they know aren't good or aren't fair or rationalize them to make themselves feel better when a great majority knows its not how things *should* be.

Originally posted by madeux

In my opinion, which is all that matters as far as I'm concerned, this is how microtransactions should be handled.  Allowing a player to skip some grind, allowing them to buy some custom clothes or a pet, is how it should be done.  And I think it's how it will be done in most games in the future.

Now, before the whining starts, nowhere did they include an option to buy a max level character with uber gear that will dominate everyone else. 

 

That would mean that the company designed boring gameplay on purpose to create a demand for items to make it less boring. Fine, if the game has no fee and just microtransitions. But when the standard game already has a fee, its basically paying for intended subpar gameplay. Someone who pays for that is easy prey for companies.

Originally posted by wesjr

People act like this isn't how life works...

 

Go buy a new car, want all the options?  You pay extra for it...

Goto a Movie, want popcorn or a soda?  You pay extra for it...

Goto Dinner, want desert?  You pay extra for it....

Got cable TV?  Want HBO, ST or pay preview?  You guessed it you pay extra for it...

 

 

I could go on and on ...

Bad comparisons.

Say the shop sells xp potions. If lvling in the game is too smooth, the shop wont sell many xp potions. Any commercial company will try to tweak xp in a way that they sell as many xp potions as possible. This means that gameplay is designed to make maximum profit on shop sales.

So thats not like buying popcorn for a movie, which can be seen as an extra for the movie going experience. Instead you are buying something to fix the movie experience. Seats instead of standing places or a cinema sized screen instead of a television screen at 20 yard distance.

hm, while i dont like buying items in game with real money outside of cosmetic features, or in a game like EQ2 and buying housing stuffs. i wont completely rule out tryin CO because of the in game micro transactions that people are talking about, so long as i can enjoy my gameplay experience. ill be content. im tryin this game for at least the first month. i dont group often in mmos, but can normally still find alot to entertain myself with. if CO happens tohave in game items with stats that "change the game" oh well, i wont need them to enjoy myself.

Originally posted by Mors-Subita

Originally posted by Abrahmm

 

Did you know that EQ and EQ2 have microtransactions?

Did you know that people were really really pissed when SOE introduced micro transactions to EQ and EQ2?

I don't need to wait and see. I despise even the idea of microtransactions, RMT, or whatever, and will never participate in a game that contains them.

 

I'm not going to bother adressing your murder analogy, although it was worth a really good laugh. I do want to toss a "Did you know" into this mix...

Did you know that SOE has been making a killing off the RMT? I guess people weren't THAT pissed...

Proof? If SOE was making a killing, I don't think they would be shutting down games and laying off employees.