Originally posted by tapeworm00

Originally posted by ghost047

Originally posted by Ziphen

Originally posted by green13

Originally posted by ghost047

Originally posted by green13

I know exactly how it works.

But it doesn't add to being more "action oriented". And that's exactly what previewers of the game are saying.

The only difference between a normal mana regen model and energy build up from attacks, is you have to fire off your single endurance building attack.

Either you don't know or don't understand, there's is a downtime between battle for you to regenerate your mana, not in CO, you kill and you jump to the other mob. Let's say you fight a boss, no one is going to say, I'm out of mana, cannot attack anymore (and the mage doesn't do anything anymore). In CO, you constantly fight against the boss.

As I said before, I know exactly how it works.

I also understand exactly how it works.

Have you ever played CoH? Apart from the early pre-stamina levels, it's extremely rare for anyone to ever need to rest between fights. You can almost always run straight from one to the next. It's been a while since I played it, but WoW was pretty much the same, except for rare, really intense battles. And I've been in the Aion closed beta, and it's exactly the same there.

And I've read several previews by people who have played the game who confirm that it isn't any more action-oriented than it appears, including this relatively recent one.

http://kotaku.com/5319869/champions-online-combat-preview-challenge-accepted

Still Feels Like A Cool Down: Technically, the spells in Champions don't need cool down periods after you cast them. However, you can't cast higher level spells without building up endurance with low-level attacks. It's a little bit less boring to mash the X button over and over than just sitting there and watching the timer on your best area-effect spell expire; but it still feels like a cool down period just the same.

All CO has is a CoH brawl-equivalent attack which regens mana, in place of natural "over-time" mana regeneration.

Like I said in my original response to this particular claim - while I think that taking most powers off of individual cooldowns was a smart move I also think the "it's more action-oriented" claim is pure hype and will be quickly seen as such.

 

 

 

The same reviewer goes on to say this,

"Champions Online shakes that up a bit by giving the player more to do than just stand there and kick. At any one point during combat you could be kicking someone's shins, raining fire down on them from the air while you hover overhead with your fiery fairy wings, dodging an attack with a well-timed mashing on the A or S button, or waiting for a command to pop up and tell you to mash a button to collect an item drop or escape an enemy attack or hold. You're always moving in Champions, always changing targets and never not mashing on an a button once combat gets going. Big plus."

Sounds more action oriented to me. In CoX or WoW, you never had to worry about blocking, which adds a whole new action oriented scheme.

Also, what makes it feel more action-oriented, is you can move while using power (exept for some) which you can't in almost every MMO.

CO's model lets you control your "mana" flow in wasy the regular model doesn't. That alone makes it a lot more action oriented simply because it lets you be a lot more spontaneous during combat. In other terms, CO's model is basically the regular model but under your control, making it a more dynamic experience; you wanna fire off that super ultra blast from hell? you gotta work for it, plan for it during combat because you can't just walk in, fire it off and then run away while your endurance/mana regenerates. Both models look like the same in paper, but imagine a combat situation and you'll easily spot the difference that makes the "more action oriented" thing make sense.

It actually gives you less control.

The comparison that will inevitably be made by players and reviewers is the auto melee/bow/wand style attacks in EQ-style games like WOW and Aion. In those games you can control your mana output by balancing your mana-using powers and mana-free attacks. By doing that you can generally chew through even-con mobs without ever needing to rest. But if you come up against a bigger (eg. boss) type mob that you need to take down quickly, you can go all out with your bigger mana-using powers.

i.e. the old-school EQ-style system gives players a lot more choice and control than CO's.

I qualify these comments with - I have no problem with CO's combat mechanics. But the supposedly revolutionary differences are only surface deep and this particular claim is pure hype.

Blocking may be a nice additional touch - though all they've done there is take a standard melee option and given it to everyone.

Originally posted by green13 

It actually gives you less control.

The comparison that will inevitably be made by players and reviewers is the auto melee/bow/wand style attacks in EQ-style games like WOW and Aion. In those games you can control your mana output by balancing your mana-using powers and mana-free attacks. By doing that you can generally chew through even-con mobs without ever needing to rest. But if you come up against a bigger (eg. boss) type mob that you need to take down quickly, you can go all out with your bigger mana-using powers.

i.e. the old-school EQ-style system gives players a lot more choice and control than CO's.

I qualify these comments with - I have no problem with CO's combat mechanics. But the supposedly revolutionary differences are only surface deep and this particular claim is pure hype.

Blocking may be a nice additional touch - though all they've done there is take a standard melee option and given it to everyone.

i am not really getting what your argument is here. the eq-style system is defined mostly by it's reuse timer and what you will do in pretty much any given fight is a pretty well defined sequence of spells which you're repeating over and over. the damage difference between not using styles and using them is enormously big, as a non melee you don't even have the option since all your damage comes from spells, so the only option is to go slower or faster, but all the time you're restricted by the timers.

in co the restriction is simply your momentum, you don't have a predefined sequence because of recast. there is no time where you have to go slow to preserve your mana, you're constantly juggling momentum-building powers and strong attacks, you never just lean back and push only two buttons because you're afraid of not having enough mana or a recast on the big hitters.

it's quite a bit of a difference, it's not an enormous step and i have yet to test it, so i can't judge it just yet, but yes it's quite a difference.

Originally posted by zarzu

i am not really getting what your argument is here.

It's this.

There's bugger all difference between players having an attack they have to use to build energy, and players having energy-free attacks they can use while energy just regenerates naturally over time.

Your damage is still on a curve. The mechanic is to make XBox control people happy. Mash buttons...woot, etc...to be honest anything that spices it up a bit isn't bad. But this just gives us something to do until we power up for the win. It's not like these non-auto-auto-attacks are going to be the end all be all. It's just a timer with a little something to do.

Originally posted by green13 

It's this.

There's bugger all difference between players having an attack they have to use to build energy, and players having energy-free attacks they can use while energy just regenerates naturally over time.

well yea, that is trivial, if you have some kind of substance that is used up by using abilities, then it needs to fill up again somehow. the dynamic is very different though, the momentum-building powers fill your bar within seconds and there is no time where you just lean back. i don't know how many energy-free attacks wow has, but all games i have ever played don't really have any other than autoattack, there is a huge difference between sleeping on your keyboard while you autoattack and a system where you never stop to preserve energy.

Enjoying the info.

Got a very specific question and hope someone can answer it.

In CoH I played a tank. I don't remember all the details, but I remember that I built it so that it had some key passive abilities that allowed me to get stronger the more mobs attacked me. However, in CoH, lots of mobs had the ability to turn off my passive abilities. This sorta reduced my combat playing experience to constantly and quite frantically having to spend my time turning my abilities back on, and back on, and back on, until I got so sick of it I quit.

Does anyone know if it's different this time around?

For some odd reason, this is the only thing I can really think of that is a major concern for me personally when it comes to gameplay. For a super hero game designer to give people cool powers and then make the mobs so that they take them away again, not just every now and then, but ALL the time, basically told me how abitrary the whole design was. I sure hope they know better now. If anyone can shed some light, I'd be grateful.

Originally posted by Quale

Enjoying the info.

Got a very specific question and hope someone can answer it.

 

In CoH I played a tank. I don't remember all the details, but I remember that I built it so that it had some key passive abilities that allowed me to get stronger the more mobs attacked me. However, in CoH, lots of mobs had the ability to turn off my passive abilities. This sorta reduced my combat playing experience to constantly and quite frantically having to spend my time turning my abilities back on, and back on, and back on, until I got so sick of it I quit.

Does anyone know if it's different this time around?

For some odd reason, this is the only thing I can really think of that is a major concern for me personally when it comes to gameplay. For a super hero game designer to give people cool powers and then make the mobs so that they take them away again, not just every now and then, but ALL the time, basically told me how abitrary the whole design was. I sure hope they know better now. If anyone can shed some light, I'd be grateful.

It is totally different in CO.  Each character has one passive slot.  In that slot you can put an offensive buff (think fire form), a defensive power (regeneration, force field, etc), or a support power (like say an aura that increases all your allies energy or damage).  As far as I know that slot is always active.

Besides your passive ability you can activate defensive powers and other buffs that cost endurance and last for a short duration or have a limited effect as a "click power" (just like an attack).

So for example you could take Invulnerability as your passive power and you would always get the damage resistance it has;  then you could take a heal which you could use every thirty seconds or so.  Or you could take regeneration as your passive power and constantly regain hp and also take a power which gives you high resistance for a few seconds that you can use every once and a while.

Also every character can block and their are power which enhance your blocks in some way.

Edit: Also you can have multiple builds so while you can only have one passive power active at any given time you can take and use more then one.

Originally posted by zarzu

Originally posted by green13 

It's this.

There's bugger all difference between players having an attack they have to use to build energy, and players having energy-free attacks they can use while energy just regenerates naturally over time.

 well yea, that is trivial, if you have some kind of substance that is used up by using abilities, then it needs to fill up again somehow. the dynamic is very different though, the momentum-building powers fill your bar within seconds and there is no time where you just lean back. i don't know how many energy-free attacks wow has, but all games i have ever played don't really have any other than autoattack, there is a huge difference between sleeping on your keyboard while you autoattack and a system where you never stop to preserve energy.

WOW players typically have one or two of these to choose from for mana free attacks - melee weapon, bow or wand. And you're saying CO is different. Don't players just get the one energy building attack? Has that changed?

If your energy bar does fill up within seconds, then that sounds good - it's something they should be saying. But the claim of it being more "action-oriented" is a dangerous one. On paper it looks like hype and several previewers have already suggested exactly this.

One game that CO will inevitably be compared to is CoX. And while it does use cooldowns, beyond a certain level, players are never just standing around. The mix of long and short cooldowns means that at any given time there are generally half a dozen of the shorter-cooldown abilities ready to use. So players aren't exactly "sleeping on their keyboard".

And we should qualify that some powers in CO also use cooldowns - the power armor framework is cooldown-based - though if you don't like cooldowns you can just avoid this framework.

I really think they're setting themselves up to disappoint with this claim - and that generally doesn't go down well with reviewers or players.

Originally posted by green13

Originally posted by zarzu

i am not really getting what your argument is here.

It's this.

There's bugger all difference between players having an attack they have to use to build energy, and players having energy-free attacks they can use while energy just regenerates naturally over time.

I see your point - I think that the difference, in theory, is minimal. In practice, it comes down to how the player feels about combat, not so much about what actually happens in the game. CO's combat is more tactical (setting off powers on-the-go) while the classic one is more strategic (setting up a plan of attack before engaging), so to speak, but after all it ends up being more or less the same. The thing is, the player is constantly required to input something to keep going, while that's not part of the classic model, where you just have to carefully calculate and time attacks in a certain order to be effective; you don't need to 'keep going', you just wait for your mana to regen. Now I agree that "more action-oriented" is pretty deceptive, but it's actually somewhat suitable to describe the feeling of having to do something absolutely all the time instead of throughout short spans of time.

Maybe we should call it "feels more action-oriented" :P

Originally posted by Quale

Enjoying the info.

Got a very specific question and hope someone can answer it.

 

In CoH I played a tank. I don't remember all the details, but I remember that I built it so that it had some key passive abilities that allowed me to get stronger the more mobs attacked me. However, in CoH, lots of mobs had the ability to turn off my passive abilities. This sorta reduced my combat playing experience to constantly and quite frantically having to spend my time turning my abilities back on, and back on, and back on, until I got so sick of it I quit.

Does anyone know if it's different this time around?

For some odd reason, this is the only thing I can really think of that is a major concern for me personally when it comes to gameplay. For a super hero game designer to give people cool powers and then make the mobs so that they take them away again, not just every now and then, but ALL the time, basically told me how abitrary the whole design was. I sure hope they know better now. If anyone can shed some light, I'd be grateful.

CoH is not like this anymore.   Unless your endurance is completely drained, your toggles always stay running.   Also, for non-toggle passive powers, they are always on.   

Those are excellent news guys. Thnx for the replies.

Maybe this has already been answered, but if there is only one server how are they going to control overpopulation

Originally posted by Milky

Maybe this has already been answered, but if there is only one server how are they going to control overpopulation

instancing as mentioned a few times.

Example: if theres more than 'x' people in zone 'y' then a new version of zone 'y' is created for additional players entering zone 'y'. I cannot give you exact numbers without breaking forum rules of conduct.

Originally posted by AIAG

Originally posted by Milky

Maybe this has already been answered, but if there is only one server how are they going to control overpopulation

instancing as mentioned a few times.

Example: if theres more than 'x' people in zone 'y' then a new version of zone 'y' is created for additional players entering zone 'y'. I cannot give you exact numbers without breaking forum rules of conduct.

You can't give exact numbers without breaking forum rules of conduct?

The only thing that would prevent anyone from commenting on this would be the NDA. But you've been here asking questions about the CO as if you don't know anything about it....

I think he means it's against the forum rules here to violate a NDA for any game, perhaps?

Originally posted by green13

Originally posted by AIAG

Originally posted by Milky

Maybe this has already been answered, but if there is only one server how are they going to control overpopulation

instancing as mentioned a few times.

Example: if theres more than 'x' people in zone 'y' then a new version of zone 'y' is created for additional players entering zone 'y'. I cannot give you exact numbers without breaking forum rules of conduct.

You can't give exact numbers without breaking forum rules of conduct?

The only thing that would prevent anyone from commenting on this would be the NDA. But you've been here asking questions about the CO as if you don't know anything about it....

 

I only asked one question on this forum, nearly all my other posts are either linking official press releases or answering without specifics.
Anyway You could easily find the numbers of the cap of specific zones if you really want to, but they will probably be changing especially with the OB test probably having an effect on it.

About rules of conduct in regards to NDA.
NDAs
* MMORPG.com does not permit users to post information on games still under an NDA. For more information about your specific game's NDA, please visit their official website.

Basically the zone caps have not been officially released yet, so mentioning them is releasing information that is still under CO NDA.

Why not keep the old and add a bunch more to it? WOuldn't it be a little wastful to just dump all the old costumes? It's Not like they're keeping the old and adding 5 more jackets, this seems pretty huge. I for one, enjoyed my heroes and villains from CoH/CoV and it will be really cool to create them again.

Originally posted by zaylin

Only thing kinda bugging me atm is the fact that I have seen a lot of CoH/CoV costume options reused in CO. why not dump them and make all new ones{shrugs}.

Why not keep the old and add a bunch more to it? WOuldn't it be a little wastful to just dump all the old costumes? It's Not like they're keeping the old and adding 5 more jackets, this seems pretty huge. I for one, enjoyed my heroes and villains from CoH/CoV and it will be really cool to create them again.

Originally posted by green13

Originally posted by Yamota

If there will be only one server then that means two things. Either the world will be HUGE (think current size of WoW times ten) or it will be HEAVILY instanced.

Seeings as CoH was heavily instanced I think it will be the second one. Anyone know for sure?

If too many players are in a particular zone, then a second instance of the entire zone is created - which is what happens in CoH.

so they have that mirrored instancing of zones like Age of Conan does ? very lame

guess cryptic doesnt pay attention to other mmo's that fail. mirrored instancing of zones was one of the chief complaints about AoC.

People want to play massive mo's not multiplayer games

Originally posted by admriker4

so they have that mirrored instancing of zones like Age of Conan does ? very lame

guess cryptic doesnt pay attention to other mmo's that fail. mirrored instancing of zones was one of the chief complaints about AoC.

People want to play massive mo's not multiplayer games

There are advantages to a setup like this, though.

Eg., look at City of Heroes. They have 8-10 servers, but only 2 of them have reasonable levels of activity on them these days. If you have characters on one of the other servers, you're kind of doomed to spend a lot of time solo'ing. And because most players know which are the two most populated servers, this is where most new characters are created.

The advantage of a single server with mirrored instancing is that no-one ever needs to worry about things like this, and it's also one big community. You'll never be in a situation where you eg. find a friend has started playing but they're on a different server, etc. etc.

Obviously a single server without instances would be better, but I'd rather mirrored instancing than lots of separate servers.

Originally posted by green13

Originally posted by admriker4

so they have that mirrored instancing of zones like Age of Conan does ? very lame

guess cryptic doesnt pay attention to other mmo's that fail. mirrored instancing of zones was one of the chief complaints about AoC.

People want to play massive mo's not multiplayer games

There are advantages to a setup like this, though.

Eg., look at City of Heroes. They have 8-10 servers, but only 2 of them have reasonable levels of activity on them these days. If you have characters on one of the other servers, you're kind of doomed to spend a lot of time solo'ing. And because most players know which are the two most populated servers, this is where most new characters are created.

The advantage of a single server with mirrored instancing is that no-one ever needs to worry about things like this, and it's also one big community. You'll never be in a situation where you eg. find a friend has started playing but they're on a different server, etc. etc.

Obviously a single server without instances would be better, but I'd rather mirrored instancing than lots of separate servers.

i understand the advantages. However those advantages wont matter when nobody plays because they hate mirrored instancing.

I remember in AoC when word went around the chat channels in-game that we all werent in the same zone instance. Players were very upset and it was hotly debated on forums. It certainly led to many cancelled accounts.

So it might be a cheap way for a developer to allow larger populations on a cheap server but many players wont stand for it. If Eve can have 30,000 players on a single server with no mirrored instancing then we know its certainly possible.

Frankly Im tired of settling for MMO's missing features I want. And now they want me to play a multiplayer game with a monthly fee and rmt ? when did it become okay to offer less and charge more ?

When there's a cluster of players in an area in Eve Online, even there has been complaint of severe lag. And the world of Eve Online is huge and assumingly non-linear.

In games where there will be expected clustering of players in an area, this is clearly not possible. For a server, if there's n players in an area, then that requires n*(n-1) information being transferred, because each of the n players needs information from each of the other players. This puts severe stress on the network.

The problem these days is that players don't understand technology or the inner-workings. The demand for something like this is just not practical...

Originally posted by LackeyZero

When there's a cluster of players in an area in Eve Online, even there has been complaint of severe lag. And the world of Eve Online is huge and assumingly non-linear.

In games where there will be expected clustering of players in an area, this is clearly not possible. For a server, if there's n players in an area, then that requires n*(n-1) information being transferred, because each of the n players needs information from each of the other players. This puts severe stress on the network.

The problem these days is that players don't understand technology or the inner-workings. The demand for something like this is just not practical...

Amen, I wish everyone would understand this!

I don't even understand why so many care that this is being implemented?  What, you wanna see all 5,000 people in your zone?  I wouldn't...then I'd know it will be a very long day of waiting for respawns.  Another reason I appreciate 1 server with several instances at a cheaper cost, is because it allows the devs to put a full effort into the game rather being low on resources and constrained by budgets...this gives them some more "wiggle room".  The RMT is an idea I whole-heartedly support.  Let the dopes that are dumb enough to spend money on gear that drops in game feed Cryptic some more money to use towards enhancing my gaming experience....my hats are off to you :)

Originally posted by Somnulus

Originally posted by green13

Originally posted by neorandom

 well in city of x games i never felt 1 bit super, even fighting level 2 cops with 9mm pistols i felt weak as a super villain who was supposed to have super stength and be nearly invulnerable.  i expected a feel of when everyones super, no one is in the pvp, or boss fights vs other super beings, i would have liked to at least feel super when fighting ordinary enemies, just make me fight hundreds of them at a time and it would feel epic =p.  maybe champs or the dc heroe game will do it right?

That feeling of super-ness definitely existed in CoH at launch.

But it's been whittled away by years of nerfing powers that started with the introduction of pvp.

Once upon a time, tanks - certain builds anyway - could pull ridiculous numbers of mobs and blasters could swoop in and aoe them. It was quite a thrill as a very squishy little blaster or controller to dive into a seething mass of mobs and fire off aoe blasts or holds - knowing that if even a tiny fraction of those mobs turned their attention away from the tank, you'd be dead before you could blink.

They nerfed that to slow down xp farming - but in the process they also killed a fair whack of the game's fun factor.

 

QFT... played CoH from beta, quit after I4 (I think) when they started the first round of idiotic nerfs (like subduing travel powers when in combat, and the dreaded BS that was Enhancement Diversification (ED). Came back briefly, but the game mechanics were unrecognizable. Slow and boring.

At release, you felt super. You could take down insane numbers of mobs.  It was great.

Too bad Jack Emmert screwed it all up by forcing the nerfs down everyone's throats.

It's funny, because despite what Emmert did to CoH, I was actually considering trying Champions. However, with the recent announcement of the combination sub / cash shop, forget it.

When I pay a sub, I get it all, up front. If I'm playing for free, I'm willing to pay for the extras when I choose.

Not both.

Pity. I wish I could say good luck to them with this payment model, just in the interest of not seeing yet another MMORPG go down in flames.

However, to be perfectly honest, I would like to see Champions crash and burn as an example to other developers. If sub / cash shop becomes the wave of the future for MMORPGs, I will stop playing them altogether.

 

 

Quoted for the Nontruth.

Played CoH since Beta, been on the boards since Rhyno and Macarthur was on.  The nerfed what needed to be done.  One of the biggest complaints was due to people feeling useless.  ED was probable the best thing they could of done.  At release certain characters felt SUPER.  Most characters felt useless.  I know so many people DIDN"T quit because of ED.  Yes some stupid people couldn't get it through there heads and quit.  20k to be exact.  Easily in the long run it saved the game.

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