Originally posted by Xasapis

 Turbine is not doing anything new with DDO. Funcom is using the exact same model with Anarchy Online. Not sure if others before them used the same model. 

The thing is that DDO sucks but Anarchy Online really sucks so credit goes to DDO.

Back on topic FTP games just are not as good as PTP games. I think FTP are getting better but they are not there yet. I am always watching the FTP market and I am waiting on some major releases in the comming months.

I've encountered three common themes (and I haven't tried all free to play MMOs) with the free MMOs I've played, at least with respect to annoyances.

1) Items you buy that aren't permanent.  I understand the idea, but I like to play at my own pace.  I might got a week straight of 5+ hours a day, or I might suddenly decide to take several days off.  I usually make that decision 2 minutes before I usually log in.  If I don't feel like playing, but I've got some item that is going to disappear in a short while, I'd feel obligated to play just to get my money's worth.   Hell, I wouldn't mind so much if most items were good for a month, but it seems like most companies go for a matter of hours to a few days.

2) Items that you don't need to play, but make it exceedingly difficulty to play without.  Good example of these are experience boosters.  Lots of free MMOs put in insane experience penalties at higher levels, with the idea that you can pay to remove them.  Only, it costs a ridiculous amount of money to keep yourself supplied with these.  Or, in a more despicable example, Atlantica Online.  I've never seen a single person recommend playing without investing in these special items which help you move faster and avoid being bombarded with combat encounters while travelling.  Sure, everyone agrees you CAN play without them, but its generally agreed to be stupid and/or worthless to do so.

3) In some games you can be considered something of a leper without certain items, or at least boosted stats/abilities.  I don't PvP, so I could care less about that, but the few free MMOs I've actually built myself up on I often couldn't find groups or had trouble working with others simply because they wanted people who bought power-ups on the Item Mall, and didn't want to deal with people who didn't or choose not to at the time.

I played a game about 5+ years ago called "Project Entropia" and I was looking around this site to see if there is any game lists or forums about it. Dose anyone remember that game? I played it for about 3+ months and found it hard to make any money to buy or even repair my stuff. But now I think about it I think that game was F2P and you could cash out. Make real money off the game. Anyway I know that this is a difent type of game.

Originally posted by Pinkerl

why people despise Free2Play?

I've nothing against free2play mmos - just the microtransactions that tend to go with them.

I think it's fair enough if some people want to go for that sort of thing but:

• I like to approach mmos the same way that I do other games - on an equal footing to other players; and
• I like a set subscription fee that covers absolutely everything.

And I have to say, Minions of Mirth is pretty decent for anyone looking for an actual free2play mmo. You buy the game, but there's no subscription and no microtransactions. The graphics are a bit dated, but the gameplay is pretty good.

Originally posted by Miner-2049er

Originally posted by LynxJSA 

The main arguments against it are based largely in misinformation. Hammertime presented about the only valid argument that I have heard so far. The two most common ones are: 

1) You have to pay to compete. Of the MMOFPS games, this is sometimes true, but it is rarely true of the MMORPGs, and immaterial in the PvE focused ones as you aren't competing with anyone there.

2) It costs more than P2P MMOs,. For the 10% or so that pay, that can sometimes be true. However, for 90% of the people enjoying the game, that is completely false. That a free download and months of free play can be perceived as costing more than paying for a retail box and a recurring monthly subscription fee whether you play each month or not is a a true stretch.

  

 

I was playing RoM with a Scout/Priest. Time and time again I was literally  getting one shotted by same level mage/priests in PvP.

The game has crazy twinking/ through enchantments where fully twinked gear at level 15 or so is as tough as the usual max level gear. How do you get these enchantments - the cash shop.

I am not misinformed. I played the game long enough to reach level 35/35. I actually liked a lot about the game, but ultimately the need to spend cash (more cash than P2P in fact) drove me away.

Perhaps I quit because I have different playstyle to you, but your 'misinformation' assertion is not true.

You cite the exception, and not the rule. RoM is one of the worst F2P when it comes to needing to pay to compete. Why anyone plays that heap of crap is beyond me.

I've always come across a stupid amount of cheaters on f2p games. It will always be the same too, who cares if they are caught and the account is banned? two minutes later they are back in the game with a different character.

Plus they all use shit hacking "prevention" software like gameguard.

Originally posted by Pinkerl

why people despise Free2Play?

 

to me its not different from monthly. free2play cashshpop to win right? well monthly  is buy ingame currency  to win. either way it is currupted on both model. im kindda laylow on mmo now. i mostly play psn and waiting for ff14 see how it do in ps3. hopfully console is less curruption.

 

 

so since both model is no difference.... runes of magic is pretty good.

in the mind of p2p player its like this

p2p price =1+1=-1

f2p  price = 1+1= 2

in their head p2p is cheaper then f2p

but they dont count the gas to go to ebgame they dont count the cost of the game they just count monthly fee 

lol no wonder the whole america is very close to be bankrupt 

f2p price is the same as p2p 

the one difference is the in f2p you got to budget if you dont descide a specific amount then you might be better sticking to guild wars

for me i love f2p ,can play it a while and see if you like em 

p2p quality stayed the same while f2p improved greatly in the last 3 years

yes some with money to burn will spend 2000$ a week in f2p to be elite 

lol in p2p the elitist will play 20 hour a day to have the best and be the badass 

so basicly be it in p2p or f2p you ll always have elistist 

if you dont like elitist 

dont play any game because theres alays elitist in any game be it mmo or football

Originally posted by Pinkerl

why people despise Free2Play?

 

to me its not different from monthly. free2play cashshpop to win right? well monthly  is buy ingame currency  to win. either way it is currupted on both model. im kindda laylow on mmo now. i mostly play psn and waiting for ff14 see how it do in ps3. hopfully console is less curruption.

 

 

so since both model is no difference.... runes of magic is pretty good.

The reason's why most people would rather pay to play mmorpg's instead of just buying the game itself is because the developers need money to fix bugs and add content to the game. If they just cash in and don't have a wave of income to support the game running or future then they won't be able to pull it off just off of a one time buy option. These type of games usually cost a a whole lot to create and the income just from sales won't even come close to writing off the debt's they owe unless they receive monthly income to pay for customer support, and everything in between.

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by SubL_Jedi

It's funny how people despise a game that's free to play meaning you don't have to do anything but download and play it. You don't have to pay a penny, they are giving you this. It's like throwing your mom's gifts back in her face (spoiled brat). I love free to play games and i really appreciate the time and effort put into the games that are given to me. They might not be the best but are you paying your money to help them develop it?

 

It's a lie. No game is free to play. Someone is always paying. You may be okay with the way that works but don't ever say they're free. It's a lie

It's not a lie. These games are absoutely free for me. I play them and I don't pay a dime. Not one. I just enjoy the game as it is, and for as long as it is fun. Then I quit. Just like with P2P games.

Originally posted by Pinkerl

why people despise Free2Play?

 

to me its not different from monthly. free2play cashshpop to win right? well monthly  is buy ingame currency  to win. either way it is currupted on both model. im kindda laylow on mmo now. i mostly play psn and waiting for ff14 see how it do in ps3. hopfully console is less curruption.

 

 

so since both model is no difference.... runes of magic is pretty good.

the following reasons why people despise microtransaction games comes to my mind:

1. they do not like the microtransaction payment modell
2. these games lack more or less severely in overall quality
3. microtransactions are considered dangerous if kids participate without considering the financial impact
4. the large number of microtransaction games are "asian/manga"-setings clones that not everyone likes
5. the community, because of a lack of contraol, in this games tends to be "suboptimal" *smiles*

ok that are my 5 cents :)

Anyone who plays a f2p game and thinks the developer is making the game available for free no strings attached is fooling themselves.

Everything has a price.

I would have to say that the main reason is the overall quality. There are more minor reasons, but it seems that for most of these type of games the cash-shops were added as an afterthought when they realised the game is not going to be good enough for the P2P market.

Originally posted by thexrated

I would have to say that the main reason is the overall quality. There are more minor reasons, but it seems that for most of these type of games the cash-shops were added as an afterthought when they realised the game is not going to be good enough for the P2P market.

Another false statement. The majority of F2P MMOs were built from the ground up based on the microtransaction model.

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by thexrated

I would have to say that the main reason is the overall quality. There are more minor reasons, but it seems that for most of these type of games the cash-shops were added as an afterthought when they realised the game is not going to be good enough for the P2P market.

 Another false statement. The majority of F2P MMOs were built from the ground up based on the microtransaction model.

Perhaps now, but it was not the case when they started appearing. I have not played the new ones at all. So my statement was inaccurate, but not false.

Originally posted by thexrated

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by thexrated

I would have to say that the main reason is the overall quality. There are more minor reasons, but it seems that for most of these type of games the cash-shops were added as an afterthought when they realised the game is not going to be good enough for the P2P market.

 Another false statement. The majority of F2P MMOs were built from the ground up based on the microtransaction model.

Perhaps now, but it was not the case when they started appearing. I have not played the new ones at all. So my statement was inaccurate, but not false.

It has always been the case. Which F2P MMOs do you feel were intended to be subscription based that switched to F2P? There's Dransik, AO, and DDO. The majority of 2D/3D F2P MMOs were ports of eastern MMOs which have been item malls from the start. The browser-based MMOs initially built on the NeoPets format which was, again, an item mall.

Originally posted by thexrated

I would have to say that the main reason is the overall quality. There are more minor reasons, but it seems that for most of these type of games the cash-shops were added as an afterthought when they realised the game is not going to be good enough for the P2P market.

i never thot of it that way but you got one of the big reason why f2p as a bad rep,when game dev wake up one morn and find out their game will die  and they try to turn to f2p model its true that 90% of those game, p2p gone f2p ,suck big time 

like you have to pay to go to a dungeon or content etc its like a half baked cake not very tasty

Having been a part of the f2p bandwagon for so long, I can say it's a quality issue. There's always something just not quite right in a f2p game, and a mean far and above the potential bugs and issues of a p2p.

Either there's an excessive grind to make double exp cash shop items necessary, or in Free Realms' case a large chunk of the game is unplayable without subscribing - and personally, if I'm going to drop monthly payments on a game, it will be a better one than FR - or in the case of Jade Dynasty, the reward for leveling is rendered nil and the game plays more like a private server than an official one.

There are a few f2p games that are higher in quality, but I still don't feel they compare with the p2p. Runes of Magic is a good example of a free game with nice quality, but eh...I made it to level 30 in that game and decided I'd rather just play WoW. Same game, without the item shop.

I agree probably most people don't bat an eye do to quality.  Most F2P see little to no updates, and are generally at the whim of the dev's across the the pacific.   Many have lag issues either do to poor performing clients or cheapo server hardware.   I think its also the " accomplishment issue ".    1 player can spend months getting somewhere, but the " noob " can spend $180 bucks ( ~$15 / month ), and accomplish the same amount in a fraction of the time.  Hackers will always be a constant force in these games unless they start requiring some sort of identification to start an account  ( CC#, paypal account #, SSN, etc ).

Free2play is just a stupid lying term, when you've to buy stuff to actual play the game...

DO people who keep making these "PLAY F2P..." threads get paid by these companies to do so?  Why else would people go out of their way to defend them unless they're profiting off of them, since thats what F2P is all about?  Think about it=)  Its all a part of the game.  The more people you can sucker into playing them, the most stuff you can sell to them.  BRILLIANT!!!

Originally posted by Josher

 Think about it=)  Its all a part of the game.  The more people you can sucker into playing them, the most stuff you can sell to them.  BRILLIANT!!!

Yes and no, Josher. You can't get blood from a stone, so you're not going to get cash from the guy who is doesn't have the money to play. But as a developer of one of those games you want him there. Hell, you NEED him there. One of the many myths about F2P is that the free player is 'second rate'. Definitely untrue. Visit the site/forums for most F2P games and you will see there are regular patches, festivals, and GM events for the F2P players (and paying ones as well). They keep the game world alive and bustling. They keep chat active and they are available to group with others. They help to retain the paying customers. As long as there are people to chat with, people to group with, and - for some - people to oggle at their new 90-day demon wings and angel halo bundle set the paying customers will stick around.

So the goal is to make the game worth the time for the free players in order to retain (and gain) paying players. While you do have MMOs like RoM and War Rock that constantly beat people over the head with their microtransaction system, those are the exception and not the rule. Most devs know that you have this tiny group that has gobs of cash and wants to spend it on stuff they find to be of value for one reason or another, and another group of people who will not now and may never spend a cent in their game.

Josher, would you put the majority of your efforts trying to squeeze blood from a stone or would you focus your marketing on the people who WILL spend money... enough money to make the game profitable and successful?

For most of you that think that F2P means "Free".

You are setting at a computer telling another computer everything it needs to know to ajust the Damage vs Payout.

Originally posted by Josher

DO people who keep making these "PLAY F2P..." threads get paid by these companies to do so?  Why else would people go out of their way to defend them unless they're profiting off of them, since thats what F2P is all about?  Think about it=)  Its all a part of the game.  The more people you can sucker into playing them, the most stuff you can sell to them.  BRILLIANT!!!

Yeah, because we all know that noone profits from P2P mmo's.......

Originally posted by LordDmaster

For most of you that think that F2P means "Free".

You are setting at a computer telling another computer everything it needs to know to ajust the Damage vs Payout.

You make my brain hurt. :) 

I used to despite the F2P model until I started playing Runes of Magic. I Figured out the following.

When I played WoW, i bought the box ($50) and 2-3 months of subscription so that's basically $95 that I spent.

I got to level 60 and I had a smattering of blue/green items . . . I quit because i can't stand raiding.

But also, I realized that if you want to reach end-game gear in WoW you have to grind and grind and grind to get the best tier items and that may take you 9 months (at $12 or whatever WoW is) that's $108 dollars. I could be completely off on the time it takes to get max gear in WoW. Add in the expansions and you are paying a lot.

In Runes of Magic, i figured you could get the best gear and reach end-game content, spend the same amount of money and do it in 1/3 or 1/4th the time.

I played EVE for 2 years (2 accounts) $700 and I was rich as hell and skilled up like crazy. If I spend $300 in RoM I can have teh best gear available and do it in 6-7 weeks. Then again, I'll burn out and go do something else right? Spending more money in the process.

Quality is another issue, I still prefer P2P but i'm actually liking RoM. So far I spent $22 for 500 diamonds . . . I kind of wish i didn't buy a perm mount because a 30 day would have been better cuz of future time restraints. My initial cost into WoW when i got in 2005 was $65 before I even started. Yes, the game copied WoW to the Nth degree, but I know I don't have to raid and raid and raid and raid and spend hundreds of hours of getting the best gear. This is actually more creative, now if they could only make crafting not be completely and utterly useless.

Now is it better to pay for it? Who knows, i'd rather use my brain like I did in EVE to reach my own end-game.

My two cents . . . I thinking that if i can be happy with my gear and spend less than $100 and feel like i accomplished all my goals in-game and do it in 6 weeks, then that's successful game for me. My ideal game is where people have to use their brains to succeed . .. and not have uber amounts of time or cash lying around. I guess that's the game of life :).

Cryomatrix