Sorry fellas and ladies, I was there in the begining and I piss on the past. Maybe I was born ahead of my time, dunno,  but even at my age I won't let the problems of the past, anchor me down for the future. You guys and gals keep trying to re-live those memories and one day you'll be too damn old to see the keyboard and will be too damn senile to remember what w,a,s,d is......nope I will continue the journey for you if you fall behind and I won't regret a thing if I don't find what I'm looking for because I don't feel like I need to devote large chunks of my time to do so......funny...at least the devs are being considerate to me by lifting the time restraints......

Originally posted by declaredemer

Paradise is less obvious when you are there; it is more obvious when you're gone, or long for it.

-- Me

What happened to the three Cs:

• Challenge
• Community
• Content

 

 

Millions of us are Ready, Willing, and Able to experience an MMORPG that returns the 3 Cs to the fold.  An opportunity to recapture the spirit of each of them, without one overwhelming the other.  An appropriate balance, achieved through items, mobs, dungeons, class diversity, class spells, and so forth.

 

We are ready for innovation; and we are ready for tradition (the three Cs). 

My vote is with the others in that you're feeling the grass is greener/nostalgia stage.  However, just to try and prove this in another method, lets take your three C's and break them down between then and now:

Challenge: What Challenge did Everquest offer that MMOs after it did not?  All the common themes, forced grouping, no instances, and so on are all present in other games.  You'd be hard pressed to find something unique about EQ anymore.

Community: Community is what you make of it.  I played Everquest back in its early stages, and I can say it had its good and bad, just like every other freaking game in existance.  Its called human nature, and isn't specific to a game.  About your only real claim to fame is Everquest was founded in a time when tight-knit communities didn't exist, so people were more willing to work and cooperate with new people than they are today, where you've likely got a family of friends already built up.  If people were more honest with themselves you'd find more people hate the community because they've abandoned it in favor of their circle of friends/guild-mates.  Well, what would you do if you didn't have that circle of friends/guild-mates?  Either be a loner, or put the effort to build a circle of friend/guild-mates, aka, create a small community you can be happy with.  Noticing a pattern?

Content:  I don't know what crack you're on, but Everquest didn't have a lot of content at launch.  Again, like every other game.  Content comes over time and, to date, that paradigm hasn't shifted.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by viralz

western developers have the same attitude that american auto manufacturers have.

"we dont care what the public wants." "this is what we making.....buy it and get out."

Can't really fault the developers for that attitude when the public pony up the dough regardless.

Best way to discourage developers from churning out bad product; stop buying it. You'd think that the MMORPG community would have that lesson well and truly learned by now, but what happens every time someone pops up and hypes the hell out of a new crappy product?

We bloody buy it.

Good luck with that when most of us suffer from MMO or general gaming addiction.  Seems most of us will put up with just about anything to get our fix.

It's this very addiction that fuels the secondary MMO market and why companies are scrambling over themselves to get a piece of it with RMT and MT business models.  Instead of quitting MMOs that obviously make gold and item acquisition a tedious chore, they buy from outside companies.  Instead of developers combating this by making content more accessible and less of a chore, they are going to keep designing content  the way they have been all along and cash in on it by implementing item and convenience shops.

Originally posted by Eronakis

Originally posted by Josher

Originally posted by declaredemer

Paradise is less obvious when you are there; it is more obvious when you're gone, or long for it.

-- Me

What happened to the three Cs:

• Challenge
• Community
• Content

 

 

Millions of us are Ready, Willing, and Able to experience an MMORPG that returns the 3 Cs to the fold.  An opportunity to recapture the spirit of each of them, without one overwhelming the other.  An appropriate balance, achieved through items, mobs, dungeons, class diversity, class spells, and so forth.

 

We are ready for innovation; and we are ready for tradition (the three Cs). 

There weren't millions playing EQ back in the day and there aren't millions looking to recreate that pathetic excuse for a MMO, by TODAYS standards.  Want proof?  Look at how well received Vangaurd was when it released.  It basically recreated much of what EQ was like.  But people weren't interested because horrible bugs &  lousy content isn't what people look for in a MMO today.  

Well I believe it may have had 1 million for a bit, but I think it did  had a steady 700k or something sub base. You give proof about vanguard and how its much similar to eq. Well it does have some of that "humph" of eq. But when the game came out, it did pretty decent for a month. Yes, the bugs and everything went wrong. But that has NOTHING to do with what this thread is about in regarding EQ. You really missed the point here.

People don't understand the EQ concept because 75% of the people who post here or play mmos now are NOT EQ players. This thread would only really include EQ, EQ2, DoAc, Vanguard and possibly WoW gamers who never experienced it and would try it. That is the majority base of this community of what the OP will recieve with this type of mmo.  

Answers are in blue.

Just wanted to get the numbers right.  Over 2 million people tried EQ over a several year period.  They never retained more than 450K at the height of the game's popularity.  Huge turnover rate for any game.  That is why they came out with EQ2, to try and appeal to those who couldn't stand EQ Live.  They failed of course.  Making EQ2 slightly more casual friendly than it's predecessor wasn't nearly enough to draw in those millions.

---

Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe
I can't really relate to the OP's nostalgia. I played UO around it's second expansion, I played EQ shortly after it's release and Asheron's Call the week it came out. They were all grinds that demanded way more of my time than any other game I had played to that point. Yeah, there were long games, and games with long stretches between save points, but I still never had to spend as much time, per session, playing as these new fangled MMORPG thingies required.
With UO, they were trying to simulate a world and I understood that. Unfortunately, simulating a world means all the tedious grinding of the real world so it didn't appeal to me. Which is odd when you consider that I was rivited to Harvest Moon 64 for a time.
EQ and AC were just like single player RPGs with all the plot yanked out. Given, this can work with something like Angband or Diablo, but both the action and progression were so slow in EQ and AC that you would really have to have an addictive personality to keep playing past level 25. On top of that, I'd spend a lot of time in the early 90's MUD hopping so I realized that EQ wasn't giving me anything that I couldn't get from any random, free Diku MUD.
And yes, I've found most MMOs boring as hell from the very beginning. EQ was not good enough to stand up against Diablo 2, Phantasy Star Online, Baldur's Gate or any other MORPG when it came to my entertainment. It wasn't until I played Anarchy Online that I noticed MMOs getting better. With AO, I could log in, form a party and just do a quick instanced dungeon. Yeah, there was hella grind, but I could drop in and immediately start kicking ass. So it's little wonder that I also liked City of Heroes and Guild Wars. In my opion, that's what people really want in these games. They don't want some "living breathing world" or alternate life. They want to hop on with there friends and crawl a dungeon for an hour or two.
Progress, it's a good thing.

---

I don't always agree with you, but what you said here is 100% true. Totally summed up my thoughts on a lot of older MMORPGs.

I have to disagree with the OP.

EQ was a timesink and a neverending grind, and little else.  The community was fun, but that was the saving grace for a game that took the potential of virtual worlds and turned them into repetitive treadmills on rails.

And content?  Riiiiiight.

Kill this, deliver that.  There's every piece of content in the history of EQ.

If you want to pine for the good old days, at least pine for Ultima.

I think the only way I will get the old EQ feeling again is when we can put on the 3D Helmet that allows us to see only the MMO world your in and graphics so real with solid animations it gives you the awe and thrill yo uhad when you entered Castle Mistmoore reading " Train to zone in, train to zone in" and you run back outside the zone or you run in to late and it's just you and 10 angry mobs hacking on you. Its a long ways away, maybe 10 to 20 years but will be worth it . Im just saying we need a big re-invention of the MMO's that would put us deeper into the MMO worlds to get the first MMO feeling back if that is even possible : (

Originally posted by declaredemer

Paradise is less obvious when you are there; it is more obvious when you're gone, or long for it.

-- Me

What happened to the three Cs:

• Challenge
• Community
• Content

Millions of us are Ready, Willing, and Able to experience an MMORPG that returns the 3 Cs to the fold.  An opportunity to recapture the spirit of each of them, without one overwhelming the other.  An appropriate balance, achieved through items, mobs, dungeons, class diversity, class spells, and so forth.

We are ready for innovation; and we are ready for tradition (the three Cs). 

No, I don't believe so. Not millions, the only MMOs that had that numbers are Wow and Guildwars, EQ never had that many players.

Many of the people on this site like you and me wants a challenging game with a nice community but the regular MMO subscriber wants an easy game that is holding your hand all the time.

A nice EQ type of game could get 500K players, maybe even some more but never millions.

Also to get the initial EQ/Meridian feeling the game will have to be very different from the games today.

Another MMO will most likely be that great experience that changes the genre, like what Half-life did to FPS, Total annhilation did to the RTS games, Diablo to the action games, Baldurs gate to the RPGs... Those games do show up and changes everything from time to time.

But the next great MMO that give that feeling will be nothing like EQ was because that train is gone since long. And it will be nothing like Wow either. I don't know how it will be but I know when I see it. If you played

"Doom" and then tried Half-life you get what I mean, or if you played "Eye of the beholder" and then tried "Baldurs gate".

---

Originally posted by afoaa
You can never recreate the past. If you try it will always end up with a sick construction.
Also there never were "millions" of players that played these kinds of games and most of those who were back then don't even play anymore.
You are simply falling into the usual trap that happens to many people as they grow up. They remeber their past experiences in a glorified light and think that their current life is not as fun and exiting. They fail to realize its because THEY have aged and changed and blame outside sources for the state of things.
Then they begin to resent the young, thinking they are stupid and simple compared to how THEY were back when they were young and in the end they become the old silly farts they looked down on while they were young.
You see these kind of people everywhere on these boards never ever comming to terms with what they have become and accepting their age and new personality that comes with it.

---

What I gathered from the OP was they were looking for a game that has three crucial elements. I'm on Old School EQ player who did enjoy the game and remember it fondly. I've not lost the since of wonder that games can provide. I'm not hinging my sense of wonder and framing it around the nostalgia of EQ, nor do I get that from the OP.

EQ was a great game that had a great formula, Risk vs Reward, substantive story line, interdependency, social structure and a vibrate community of players. None of these elements are unachievable in an MMO. The issue lies in the demographic of players and what market Devs are targeting.

---

Originally posted by Josher

---

Originally posted by declaredemer

Paradise is less obvious when you are there; it is more obvious when you're gone, or long for it.
-- Me
What happened to the three Cs:

• Challenge
• Community Content

 
 
Millions of us are Ready, Willing, and Able to experience an MMORPG that returns the 3 Cs to the fold.  An opportunity to recapture the spirit of each of them, without one overwhelming the other.  An appropriate balance, achieved through items, mobs, dungeons, class diversity, class spells, and so forth.
 
We are ready for innovation; and we are ready for tradition (the three Cs). 

---

There weren't millions playing EQ back in the day and there aren't millions looking to recreate that pathetic excuse for a MMO, by TODAYS standards.  Want proof?  Look at how well received Vangaurd was when it released.  It basically recreated much of what EQ was like.  But people weren't interested because horrible bugs &  lousy content isn't what people look for in a MMO today.  
Nostalgia is such a ^%&$*#, right=)  You know what?  People playing their first MMOs now are experiencing what you did back in in 1998.  Amazing right?  
Innovation isn't forced grouping, loads of bugs, exploits, tedious grinds, simplistic heavily limited classes, kill stealing, trains, and lousy art design. Tradition sucks by todays standards.  Ever drive a Model T every day to work?  No AC, no seatbelts, no powersteering, no radio, no airbags, no cup holders, ect.  Great to look at and recall the days when everyone had them.  But now, really lousy to drive...much like EQ.    
You can't create community.  It just happens.  Stick to niche MMOs.  WOW had a fantastic community back when it first started.  But slowly as more and more people started playing, you had to contend with the asshats.  Thats life.  Nothign last forever.  EQ is better left in the past as a memory.  That "FEELING" isn't happening again for those who first experienced it with their first MMO.  Its over.

---

I find it amusing that Knee Jerk reactions aren't held up to the same level of scrutiny. Vanguard had issues because Brad McQuaid had issues. Yes, as fans of EQ we were hoping McQuaid was going to deliver a substantive world with substantive content that made EQ immersive.

Some of today's 'new gen' players most likely can't relate to a Risk vs Reward world, earn as you go game like EQ was. In EQ your actions had consequences, you had 'challenges' to overcome. This isn't about psychological analysis or traditionalist thinking, its about a formula that breaths life into what is now hollow games void of community and interdependency.

I found UO to be more challenging, had a better ( and more interesting imo) community, and quite challenging as well.. No MMO, im my somewhat limited experience, was more like an online world than UO.

I also considered EQ to be the mold that has brought us to a lot of these "cookie cutter" MMOs we see today.

/shrug

Originally posted by declaredemer

Paradise is less obvious when you are there; it is more obvious when you're gone, or long for it.

-- Me

What happened to the three Cs:

• Challenge
• Community
• Content

 

 

Millions of us are Ready, Willing, and Able to experience an MMORPG that returns the 3 Cs to the fold.  An opportunity to recapture the spirit of each of them, without one overwhelming the other.  An appropriate balance, achieved through items, mobs, dungeons, class diversity, class spells, and so forth.

 

We are ready for innovation; and we are ready for tradition (the three Cs). 

I've played EQ back in the day. It's only advantage back then was there where only 2 other MMO's to compete with and the 3 of them were all vastly different from one another. (AC, EQ & UO)

Define "challenge" in an MMO. Time sinks, idiotically low drop rates, grinding, brutal death penalties that encourage players to take the safe route rather then take a risk...is this challenge?

Define what you mean by "community". All MMO's have them. Maybe you don't like them but that is irrelavent.

Define "content" what you mean by that? All MMO's have "content". EQ's content was nothing special. It is static and non-dynamic. You are actually very limited in what you can actually do in EQ.

"An appropriate balance, achieved through items, mobs, dungeons, class diversity, class spells and so forth" - honestly read that, you are grasping at air...that is ALL subjective and based on opinion. Talk about vague. Good luck with that.

"the good old days of gaming always look better when you look at them through rose colored glasses" ~ me

Originally posted by declaredemer

Paradise is less obvious when you are there; it is more obvious when you're gone, or long for it.

-- Me

What happened to the three Cs:

• Challenge
• Community
• Content

 

 

Millions of us are Ready, Willing, and Able to experience an MMORPG that returns the 3 Cs to the fold.  An opportunity to recapture the spirit of each of them, without one overwhelming the other.  An appropriate balance, achieved through items, mobs, dungeons, class diversity, class spells, and so forth.

 

We are ready for innovation; and we are ready for tradition (the three Cs). 

I am part of the new generation of gamers, so I never played EQ. However, I will say this. No matter if you like the game or not, the fact is we all must thank EQ for breathing life into the idea of MMOs (due thanks is also given to UO).

Problem is, many developers are afraid of the three C's because many recent attempts at a new innovation fail most of the time (EVE Online probably being the only exception). It's difficult to innnovate, then lose money because no one tried the new innovation and instead play the latest WOW clone. Somehow, we need a way to get gamers from walks of life to say no to the next WOW clone and instead play a new innovation (or at least an awesome new spin on an existing idea). Zombie mmo or Armored Core mmo anyone?

After 4 years of WoW, two tries at Lotr,  two tries at AoC, War, and a few free games I am going back to EQ, they have changed and dumbed down the game, but there is still a ton to do and see.

Nothing ever beats your first MMO.

Originally posted by declaredemer

Paradise is less obvious when you are there; it is more obvious when you're gone, or long for it.

-- Me

What happened to the three Cs:

• Challenge
• Community
• Content

 

 

Millions of us are Ready, Willing, and Able to experience an MMORPG that returns the 3 Cs to the fold.  An opportunity to recapture the spirit of each of them, without one overwhelming the other.  An appropriate balance, achieved through items, mobs, dungeons, class diversity, class spells, and so forth.

 

We are ready for innovation; and we are ready for tradition (the three Cs). 

LOL .. i played EQ since beta and all it makes me believe is that camping hours straight chatting 90% of the time (and 10% fighting) is horribly BORING. And you last sentence is contradictory. Do you want to go back to the old days or do you want completely new paradigm. Choose one.

May be you want to, but I am glad to see the EQ days long gone. Harsh death penalty, long camping time, long down time ... all those should not and would not return.

Originally posted by Bigdavo

Nothing ever beats your first MMO.

Not true.

My first MMO is UO or EQ, depending on how you define first.  SWG and DAoC beat both.  I almost forgot the details of EQ, and totally leave UO in dark memory.  But SWG and DAoC, i still remember fondly.

My longest duration was EQ among all games, till WoW.  CoX is fun too but mostly as a filler.  EQ2 is nice, notably for the crafting, but the community is kinda cold and lacking coherent.  Its just a raiding game at the end.  LOTRo is smooth and  very beautiful.  The first month is the best, but somehow, when I hit max for a few alts, the game lacks something to keep me in.

So not true again.  The first game is not everything.  It is not even the standard for comparing other games, for me at least.

Originally posted by afoaa

You can never recreate the past. If you try it will always end up with a sick construction.

Also there never were "millions" of players that played these kinds of games and most of those who were back then don't even play anymore.

You are simply falling into the usual trap that happens to many people as they grow up. They remeber their past experiences in a glorified light and think that their current life is not as fun and exiting. They fail to realize its because THEY have aged and changed and blame outside sources for the state of things.

Then they begin to resent the young, thinking they are stupid and simple compared to how THEY were back when they were young and in the end they become the old silly farts they looked down on while they were young.

You see these kind of people everywhere on these boards never ever comming to terms with what they have become and accepting their age and new personality that comes with it.

pretty good write up.also eq back then made you highly dependent on others.tbh i still play mmorpg but not near as much and i don't think the way eq  was then i would ever have the time and patience to do it if it was now.so yeah i am older and have a wife now so things change ,but i like to remember it as it was though.fun memories.

 Unfortunately they are being turned into three "$"s that item malls bring to the table:

- Cosmetic items for $;
- Powerups for $;
- Wealth and equipment by $.
 

Sadly this is the norm for 100% of the F2P games out there, and seems to be hitting P2Ps with Champions Online and Star Trek Online. Is Mythic a herald of the three "C"s destruction? It's up for the players to decide. Nonetheless the third $ exists in every game in the form of third-party farming companies.

At the moment my bet coins for what seems to be the "less worst" current-gen MMO have been placed into Aion. Will SWTOR or any game in the next year bring the three "C"s again with a new gen? I don't know, I need to live with what exists, not with what will exist, craving for the past is ok but ignoring the present because of it is not good.

EQ ruined mmos.  Taking single player group based design and forcing it into a multiple player environment.  What a stupid idea.  Gone are the days of online world replaced with cookie cutter rpgs.