Originally posted by arcdevil

WAR's problem is in no way shape nor form the structure of the content.

 

His performance is abyssmal

there are plenty of games that look twice better than WAR and perform 20x better than WAR. WAR is founded over an 8 years old engine that simply can not support the epic battles marketed, and that was what the playerbase demanded

 

The RvR mechanics

in WAR represent several backsteps from DAOC. any of the things that made DAOC a great game made into WAR

 

Mythic made their own bed and now they have to sleep in it.

They have been marketing WAR like the second coming of Jesus to the MMO world, and it didnt deliver anything other than misery and frustration

While failure cannot ever be excused, they wouldnt get this HUGE community backlash had they been more humble in the very beginning,or when the shit started hitting the fan

Pretty much all the problems that are killing WAR now were pointed by the beta testers hundreds of times, and the reaction was a cascade of bans and threats. All they wanted to hear were the yay-sayers that told them how amazing the game was, and how hard it would crush WoW

 

The balance between classes is atrocious

You cannot have one realm completly ruling over the other thanks to 3 classes out of 24.

also, we all can understand that some skills can work in a different way than intended, that balance is the most tricky feature to pull,and that everybody should deal with a certain margin of nerfs/buffs.

But WAR career balance so far has been a total rollercoaster of classes going from GODS to GIMPS (never in between) patch after patch, and now in 1.3 balance is even more out of hand than it ever was at release.

 

WAR is a gear grind / Failed to meet its audience

Mythic as usual, tried to steal players from the top MMO (back then EQ, now WoW) by giving them more of what they are used to, and failing at it, while showing the middle finger to the same loyal playerbase that supported them before

WAR is 90% about bland, uninteresting and repetitive PvE, 10% about PvP. With this, all Mythic got was pissing off both types of players, PvE players that can see WoW is billions of times ahead of WAR, and RvR players that see the RvR in WAR is like a really really bad joke

 

 

 

in a nutshell, WAR is like a Marx Brothers movie. Everything that could go wrong went HORRIBLY wrong, and in 99% of the cases it was due to blatant negligence.

I believe, sir, you managed to summarize exactly why I left so quickly after release, even though I enjoyed some of the beta experience.  Well done.  I had such high hopes and then...^^^ this.  Now my shiny, collector's edition sits on the shelf behind me whilst I play other games.
 

Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by Hydroblunt 

He has no real point because he is wrong and makes little sense.  Scenarios were very well received and no they do not work against the goal of the game.  Not everyone wants to do RvR nonstop, hump BOs and hit doors to progress through the game.  Scenarios appealed to many players who wanted instanced PvP & a way to level through PvP.  Scenarios are one of the best features in Warhammer.  They are good to variety, as WAR is a PvP focused game, after all.

They contribute to Zone flips, they also provide Renown Points.  Take them out and you leave players with less options to do something.  Wnat if I want to log for an hour and accomplish something?  RvR is time consuming, better off logging into a couple scenarios.

Oh, and the final point, they are FUN.  Lots of fun.  That's why people play them nonstop.  

 

Actually he is correct, but loses points for the presentation by saying their removal will "fix" the game.

Just like I think you are correct and everything you said above is true.  Yet at the same time the design of the rvr/pvp concept of the game is at odds with itself.  Many many people did not receive scenarios very well. 

Removing scenarios would improve the RvR aspect of the game, but at the same time scenarios are one of the few good aspects of the game.  I don't think removing them solves the rvr problem, but their existance does hurt it.  Not that I really care anymore or think it is a problem that has a solution.

It sounds like the whole keep system of RvR was added as an 11th hour change to warhammer during late beta and it just doesn't work with the rest of the games design.  It isn't like people care about scenarios to flip zones or it even gives a feel of contributing to the war aspect of the game.  They are just fun instanced pvp. 

This is just a situation where you are both right, but there really isn't a good solution.

 

 

Look, my belief is that a battleground/scenario component is a plus to any hack n' slash MMO, be it PvE or PvP focused.  It's fun, it's quick, it can get competitive, it can relieve the grind.  It can have rewards built in, giving casual players yet another alternative.  The fact that you could level in WAR via pure PvP is due to scenarios, not RvR. 

There was nothing wrong with how WAR instituted scenarios.  Even the semi-broken RvR lakes would be very active while scenarios would be popping nonstop.  So his argument about scenarios working against RvR is plain wrong.  Often RvR would run into a stalemate, so some players would opt out to do a scenario or two before logging off.  And once again, scenarios do contribute to zone flips.

Look at WoW implementing those changes, just another successful feature of WAR that they have copied.  I would not be surprised if they did a content patch with PQs soon.  WoW is just grasping at whatever catchy features they can, isn't it interesting that some of the most well received features have been a straight copy of WAR's ideas?

Mmm while i don't play WAR having seen it looked too much like WoW for my tastes.

But WoW has peaked and is already sputtering down the mountain fighting to keep more than 100,000 players than Guild Wars, sort of an invalid topic, WAR is in decline sure, its a clone of a game thats also in decline... what do you expect?

Because wow is a better game in every way ,that's why .

People vote for  the best game with their hard earned $ .

Originally posted by Mwaji

Mmm while i don't play WAR having seen it looked too much like WoW for my tastes.

But WoW has peaked and is already sputtering down the mountain fighting to keep more than 100,000 players than Guild Wars, sort of an invalid topic, WAR is in decline sure, its a clone of a game thats also in decline... what do you expect?

WoW is in decline?  It earns more in a second from sub money than you will ever earn in a lifetime.  Such a decline is really very lucrative.

I wish I can decline to such state of awful finance as Blizz is now.  Just one second from their monthly sub money.

Originally posted by Mwaji

Mmm while i don't play WAR having seen it looked too much like WoW for my tastes.

But WoW has peaked and is already sputtering down the mountain fighting to keep more than 100,000 players than Guild Wars, sort of an invalid topic, WAR is in decline sure, its a clone of a game thats also in decline... what do you expect?

If you are trying to blame WOW for WAR's failures, then you obviously do not understand WAR (or WOW) and never played WAR. WAR's problems are its own and the fact that people expected more from Mythic than what they got and even worse, it has been clear with the past few patches that Mythic doesn't even know how to fix the game.

But WAR did not fail because it was a "WOW clone"....

Originally posted by templarga

Originally posted by Mwaji

Mmm while i don't play WAR having seen it looked too much like WoW for my tastes.

But WoW has peaked and is already sputtering down the mountain fighting to keep more than 100,000 players than Guild Wars, sort of an invalid topic, WAR is in decline sure, its a clone of a game thats also in decline... what do you expect?

If you are trying to blame WOW for WAR's failures, then you obviously do not understand WAR (or WOW) and never played WAR. WAR's problems are its own and the fact that people expected more from Mythic than what they got and even worse, it has been clear with the past few patches that Mythic doesn't even know how to fix the game.

 

But WAR did not fail because it was a "WOW clone"....

Well actually I did play War after much goading from friends who did. Didn't set well with me talent system the same, BGs really it was the PVP fixed version of  WoW. However it suffered from many of the same problems the first being group vs group balance rather than each class being balanced.  I played the game for a few weeks off and on it it just felt to much like wow to me, both mechanically and culturally.

But I think i make a valid point a close copy of the original will always be 2nd place and when its father dies it will be soon to follow. I think the further WoW goes down the futher it will take the small percentage Xfers it sends to WAR.

And also I was trying to say because maybe you didn't notice it's not exactly a great time for WoW to be gloating, it's BS is finally catching up with it. Now instead of 11 million subs end of story on the end of your sentences you can write, 5 million just like guild wars and 4 million less than Habo Hotel. .. just doesn't have the same ring to it.

Originally posted by Mwaji

Originally posted by templarga

Originally posted by Mwaji

Mmm while i don't play WAR having seen it looked too much like WoW for my tastes.

But WoW has peaked and is already sputtering down the mountain fighting to keep more than 100,000 players than Guild Wars, sort of an invalid topic, WAR is in decline sure, its a clone of a game thats also in decline... what do you expect?

If you are trying to blame WOW for WAR's failures, then you obviously do not understand WAR (or WOW) and never played WAR. WAR's problems are its own and the fact that people expected more from Mythic than what they got and even worse, it has been clear with the past few patches that Mythic doesn't even know how to fix the game.

 

But WAR did not fail because it was a "WOW clone"....

 

Well actually I did play War after much goading from friends who did. Didn't set well with me talent system the same, BGs really it was the PVP fixed version of  WoW. However it suffered from many of the same problems the first being group vs group balance rather than each class being balanced.  I played the game for a few weeks off and on it it just felt to much like wow to me, both mechanically and culturally.

 

But I think i make a valid point a close copy of the original will always be 2nd place and when its father dies it will be soon to follow. I think the further WoW goes down the futher it will take the small percentage Xfers it sends to WAR.

And also I was trying to say because maybe you didn't notice it's not exactly a great time for WoW to be gloating, it's BS is finally catching up with it. Now instead of 11 million subs end of story on the end of your sentences you can write, 5 million just like guild wars and 4 million less than Habo Hotel. .. just doesn't have the same ring to it.

Are you honestly that ignorant to say that is why WOW is down to 4-5 million subs? The reason that WOW is down to 5 million subs is because the servers in China are OFFLINE! Simply as that. The players have not left the game, the players did not make a choice never to play again....they cannot play because of related business and industry issues and problems...which I might add will be rectified on July 30th or so I read. Sure, Blizzard will have some people not come back and there will be people who decide never to play again, but it won't be 5-6 million people. The point is, until the servers in China come back up, nobody knows how many subs WOW has exactly.

Next time you quote a statistic, please make sure you know the details behind the number; just a suggestion.

Originally posted by templarga

Originally posted by Mwaji

Originally posted by templarga

Originally posted by Mwaji

Mmm while i don't play WAR having seen it looked too much like WoW for my tastes.

But WoW has peaked and is already sputtering down the mountain fighting to keep more than 100,000 players than Guild Wars, sort of an invalid topic, WAR is in decline sure, its a clone of a game thats also in decline... what do you expect?

If you are trying to blame WOW for WAR's failures, then you obviously do not understand WAR (or WOW) and never played WAR. WAR's problems are its own and the fact that people expected more from Mythic than what they got and even worse, it has been clear with the past few patches that Mythic doesn't even know how to fix the game.

 

But WAR did not fail because it was a "WOW clone"....

 

Well actually I did play War after much goading from friends who did. Didn't set well with me talent system the same, BGs really it was the PVP fixed version of  WoW. However it suffered from many of the same problems the first being group vs group balance rather than each class being balanced.  I played the game for a few weeks off and on it it just felt to much like wow to me, both mechanically and culturally.

 

But I think i make a valid point a close copy of the original will always be 2nd place and when its father dies it will be soon to follow. I think the further WoW goes down the futher it will take the small percentage Xfers it sends to WAR.

And also I was trying to say because maybe you didn't notice it's not exactly a great time for WoW to be gloating, it's BS is finally catching up with it. Now instead of 11 million subs end of story on the end of your sentences you can write, 5 million just like guild wars and 4 million less than Habo Hotel. .. just doesn't have the same ring to it.

Are you honestly that ignorant to say that is why WOW is down to 4-5 million subs? The reason that WOW is down to 5 million subs is because the servers in China are OFFLINE! Simply as that. The players have not left the game, the players did not make a choice never to play again....they cannot play because of related business and industry issues and problems...which I might add will be rectified on July 30th or so I read. Sure, Blizzard will have some people not come back and there will be people who decide never to play again, but it won't be 5-6 million people. The point is, until the servers in China come back up, nobody knows how many subs WOW has exactly.

Next time you quote a statistic, please make sure you know the details behind the number; just a suggestion.

I quoted a factual statistic. Are you seriously calling me ignorant for pointing out a fact that you yourself verified in the very same sentence you called me ignorant in? Seriously? Youve come at me with some inventive BS Temp but your really getting bold these days.

As for wow picking back up in China, well that remains to be seen, I've played Asian games before and when half of them flock to greener pastures if thats wow servers elsewhere, non legal servers or Taiwan or whatnot, it's hard to convince them to come back around, especially with no WOTLK expansion out there yet and AION doing quite well actually.

And everyone knows the details why, hell I posted it earlier I think. It's not up to me to explain crap to you. If you want to figure something out my advice is to Google it.

The simple fact is WoW is in a vulnerable state, with an expansion a year away and a less than stable Expansion. And sub numbers at low levels you yourself said would never happen in years and years.I'm not saying WoW wont have a modest rebounce. But the whole point of this thread was to Bash WAR when WoW is out there Screwing itself up, I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy in what was obviously a WAR hating thread. Normally I'm not concerned with personal dislikes towards games, but to gloat when your game is not doing so well itself is  laughable.

I mean really thats like runescape making fun of pacman graphics.

Mwaji - you quoted a factual statistic? Where?

WoW losing 5 million subscribers forever because of a setback with the Chinese government which is already officially resolved? (check the news section on this site, will you) WoW haters have really become desperate where they have to adopt some outer space logic to see the downfall of WoW.

The Wow China servers are now back online.. so did WoW just gain 4-5million subs.. in 1 day?

I still find the whole situation weird. Servers are back online ... but no new accounts can be created. What's the logic in that?

Originally posted by Xasapis

I still find the whole situation weird. Servers are back online ... but no new accounts can be created. What's the logic in that?

But the existing subscribers can play for free, at least until the whole thing get's resolved.

Yes, but would you? Or would you rather play in another, more stable region?

It is really the addition of multiple factors that made WoW successful with similar contents.  I'll list them and make it look more organized and easier to read.

1)  WoW was targeting a wide audience in design, it was designed to be played by various age groups from kids, teenager, young adult, and working adult.

2)  The computer hardware requirement for WoW is not harsh, so it does not turn away people without powerful computers.

3)  The game is based on the ever popular Warcraft series, and an immense global fan base of past Blizzard titles.

4)  Players getting their family and friends to join, since WoW is easy to accept as a pass time due to the way it is designed.

5)  WoW is easy to learn to play and the system design is not too complex, but complex enough in the skill trees to allow players to customize and plan their character.  This allowed WoW to become a casual hobby to some, and extreme obsession to others.

6)  Once the game's popularity reached the critical mass, it automatically attracts curious players and newer gamers.  WoW became sort of a pop culture icon of MMORPG industry.

These are the more obvious reasons why WoW became successful as a MMORPG game even though the system it adapt were more or less based on other MMORPG that came before it.  From a business point of view, it is a good MMO marketing model, however not many company have the resources to pull this off other than Blizzard.

It is not based on the view of me as a player, but from me as an observer of the MMORPG industry.  Truth be told, I don't even like WoW that much even though I did play it for a while. (Cause:  Roomates bugged me to play)

Originally posted by Neosai

It is really the addition of multiple factors that made WoW successful with similar contents.  I'll list them and make it look more organized and easier to read.

1)  WoW was targeting a wide audience in design, it was designed to be played by various age groups from kids, teenager, young adult, and working adult.

2)  The computer hardware requirement for WoW is not harsh, so it does not turn away people without powerful computers.

3)  The game is based on the ever popular Warcraft series, and an immense global fan base of past Blizzard titles.

4)  Players getting their family and friends to join, since WoW is easy to accept as a pass time due to the way it is designed.

5)  WoW is easy to learn to play and the system design is not too complex, but complex enough in the skill trees to allow players to customize and plan their character.  This allowed WoW to become a casual hobby to some, and extreme obsession to others.

6)  Once the game's popularity reached the critical mass, it automatically attracts curious players and newer gamers.  WoW became sort of a pop culture icon of MMORPG industry.

These are the more obvious reasons why WoW became successful as a MMORPG game even though the system it adapt were more or less based on other MMORPG that came before it.  From a business point of view, it is a good MMO marketing model, however not many company have the resources to pull this off other than Blizzard.

It is not based on the view of me as a player, but from me as an observer of the MMORPG industry.  Truth be told, I don't even like WoW that much even though I did play it for a while. (Cause:  Roomates bugged me to play)

Those are all reasons why one would join into the game but that isn't what makes them stay.

Warhammer was in my opinion very repetative and visually lacking. The only thing that drew me into playing Warhammer was that I didn't want to play WoW anymore.

Originally posted by Mwaji

Originally posted by templarga

Originally posted by Mwaji

Originally posted by templarga

Originally posted by Mwaji

Mmm while i don't play WAR having seen it looked too much like WoW for my tastes.

But WoW has peaked and is already sputtering down the mountain fighting to keep more than 100,000 players than Guild Wars, sort of an invalid topic, WAR is in decline sure, its a clone of a game thats also in decline... what do you expect?

If you are trying to blame WOW for WAR's failures, then you obviously do not understand WAR (or WOW) and never played WAR. WAR's problems are its own and the fact that people expected more from Mythic than what they got and even worse, it has been clear with the past few patches that Mythic doesn't even know how to fix the game.

 

But WAR did not fail because it was a "WOW clone"....

 

Well actually I did play War after much goading from friends who did. Didn't set well with me talent system the same, BGs really it was the PVP fixed version of  WoW. However it suffered from many of the same problems the first being group vs group balance rather than each class being balanced.  I played the game for a few weeks off and on it it just felt to much like wow to me, both mechanically and culturally.

 

But I think i make a valid point a close copy of the original will always be 2nd place and when its father dies it will be soon to follow. I think the further WoW goes down the futher it will take the small percentage Xfers it sends to WAR.

And also I was trying to say because maybe you didn't notice it's not exactly a great time for WoW to be gloating, it's BS is finally catching up with it. Now instead of 11 million subs end of story on the end of your sentences you can write, 5 million just like guild wars and 4 million less than Habo Hotel. .. just doesn't have the same ring to it.

Are you honestly that ignorant to say that is why WOW is down to 4-5 million subs? The reason that WOW is down to 5 million subs is because the servers in China are OFFLINE! Simply as that. The players have not left the game, the players did not make a choice never to play again....they cannot play because of related business and industry issues and problems...which I might add will be rectified on July 30th or so I read. Sure, Blizzard will have some people not come back and there will be people who decide never to play again, but it won't be 5-6 million people. The point is, until the servers in China come back up, nobody knows how many subs WOW has exactly.

Next time you quote a statistic, please make sure you know the details behind the number; just a suggestion.

 

I quoted a factual statistic. Are you seriously calling me ignorant for pointing out a fact that you yourself verified in the very same sentence you called me ignorant in? Seriously? Youve come at me with some inventive BS Temp but your really getting bold these days.

As for wow picking back up in China, well that remains to be seen, I've played Asian games before and when half of them flock to greener pastures if thats wow servers elsewhere, non legal servers or Taiwan or whatnot, it's hard to convince them to come back around, especially with no WOTLK expansion out there yet and AION doing quite well actually.

And everyone knows the details why, hell I posted it earlier I think. It's not up to me to explain crap to you. If you want to figure something out my advice is to Google it.

The simple fact is WoW is in a vulnerable state, with an expansion a year away and a less than stable Expansion. And sub numbers at low levels you yourself said would never happen in years and years.I'm not saying WoW wont have a modest rebounce. But the whole point of this thread was to Bash WAR when WoW is out there Screwing itself up, I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy in what was obviously a WAR hating thread. Normally I'm not concerned with personal dislikes towards games, but to gloat when your game is not doing so well itself is  laughable.

I mean really thats like runescape making fun of pacman graphics.

There is a difference when players are not in a game and playing because of technical or business issues like Blizzard has experienced in China and when they have left the game out of angry or boredom.

You make it sounds as if these players left and have not or will not ever come back to WOW.

My argument is it doesn't matter right now because we do not know how many will or will not return.

Blizzard got approval for WOTLK and when it launches in China, WOW will be fine and the servers being temporarily offline will be just another "do you remember when" story with no substance.

Sure, some players will move on and other's will come back, but to quote numbers right now and try and use those numbers to support someone's own personal agenda to prove that WOW is failing is a major, major statistical fallacy.

It really is no different than saying "OMG! WOW is down on Tuesday's when I tried to log-in. This game sucks and fails".

Originally posted by templarga

There is a difference when players are not in a game and playing because of technical or business issues like Blizzard has experienced in China and when they have left the game out of angry or boredom.

You make it sounds as if these players left and have not or will not ever come back to WOW.

My argument is it doesn't matter right now because we do not know how many will or will not return.

Blizzard got approval for WOTLK and when it launches in China, WOW will be fine and the servers being temporarily offline will be just another "do you remember when" story with no substance.

Sure, some players will move on and other's will come back, but to quote numbers right now and try and use those numbers to support someone's own personal agenda to prove that WOW is failing is a major, major statistical fallacy.

It really is no different than saying "OMG! WOW is down on Tuesday's when I tried to log-in. This game sucks and fails".

Yes possibly, but no telling how long the beta will take.

BUT thats not the point in the first place, thats just the derailment job. The point is that WoW is sufficiently doing the job of screwing itself on multiple levels at the moment, from pvp balance, somehow forgetting 6 million Chinese players and figuring out how to make tanking not possible in the next patch  and some guy wants to make a forum topic about how WoW is just oh so WOW and WAR is doing terrible? But temporary problems lead to bigger problems.. I think WAR proved that.

As for " the numbers" you don't like to use as you say it would not be fair, on the other hand if wow actually did have 11 million players again you would not Hesistate to throw it around.. which you have done in the past.. over and over again. So coming from you it's perhaps a bit disingenuous.

Originally posted by Hydroblunt

 

That being said, Warhammer is the best mass PvP game on the market.

Erm...no.

DAoC is still a far better open rvr game than Warhammer.

WAR fails in the most fundimental way at being a mass pvp game.... the servers cannot handle large scale pvp in a large scale pvp game....

Probably the most epic of recent mmo failures really.

Originally posted by Zinzan

Originally posted by Hydroblunt

 

That being said, Warhammer is the best mass PvP game on the market.

 

Erm...no.

DAoC is still a far better open rvr game than Warhammer.

WAR fails in the most fundimental way at being a mass pvp game.... the servers cannot handle large scale pvp in a large scale pvp game....

Probably the most epic of recent mmo failures really.

I think they tried Integrating WoW with DAoC too much, when all everyone wanted was DAoC with better graphics,and in general modernization.

And Spellborn fell on it's face a lot harder than WAR, which is sad considering the game had it's merits.. but come on nothing fails more than Dark and Light... NOTHING.

Spellborn never took off to really fall down.  It has to be one of the least known mmo releases ever. 

Not sure I would say everyone wanted a daoc clone, but I doubt many people were expecting pvp / pve worse than either of those games. 

I think it's also user habbit. the problem with WAR along with AOC etc, is that they are too similar.  You don't stop thinking about WOW when you first experience these games. Any subtle differences from your old habbits will make you nostalgic.

Originally posted by Mwaji

Originally posted by templarga

There is a difference when players are not in a game and playing because of technical or business issues like Blizzard has experienced in China and when they have left the game out of angry or boredom.

You make it sounds as if these players left and have not or will not ever come back to WOW.

My argument is it doesn't matter right now because we do not know how many will or will not return.

Blizzard got approval for WOTLK and when it launches in China, WOW will be fine and the servers being temporarily offline will be just another "do you remember when" story with no substance.

Sure, some players will move on and other's will come back, but to quote numbers right now and try and use those numbers to support someone's own personal agenda to prove that WOW is failing is a major, major statistical fallacy.

It really is no different than saying "OMG! WOW is down on Tuesday's when I tried to log-in. This game sucks and fails".

 

 

Yes possibly, but no telling how long the beta will take.

BUT thats not the point in the first place, thats just the derailment job. The point is that WoW is sufficiently doing the job of screwing itself on multiple levels at the moment, from pvp balance, somehow forgetting 6 million Chinese players and figuring out how to make tanking not possible in the next patch  and some guy wants to make a forum topic about how WoW is just oh so WOW and WAR is doing terrible? But temporary problems lead to bigger problems.. I think WAR proved that.

As for " the numbers" you don't like to use as you say it would not be fair, on the other hand if wow actually did have 11 million players again you would not Hesistate to throw it around.. which you have done in the past.. over and over again. So coming from you it's perhaps a bit disingenuous.

That is double standard, to the extreme.  You talk statistics?  What is statistics?  Not just random and biased use of a few handpicked numbers.  Statistics, properly used, is a fair way to present the numbers to represent the real world phenomena the statistics are meant to model.  You are not presenting statistics, you are manipulating numbers to distort the "reality".  You are not modelling, you are well near lying.

What is the actual series of statistics relevant?  It should be a time series, showing the steady rise of WoW sub number from 1m at start to 12m recently.  The long term trend is upward, that is the time series.  There are events plotted along side, that would explain or show extra information, events like big patches, expansions (BC, Wotlk), events like major launch from competitors, such as WAR, AoC, events like the chinese servers shut down, events like new localisation (Russian servers).  With all those presented, we should be seeing a steady rise despite all the competitors, we would be able to see that the chinese servers incidence represent an issue shutting down all chinese servers, but the other servers are still growing.  OK this is the proper use of statistics, not your way of showing total doom, just quoting 12m and 5m, just 2 numbers out of a long series, and just quoting 2 extreme numbers, skipping all details relevant.

As for WoW itself, I think it is very health.  It is undeniably the most lucrative game business currently.  All your "doomsday" worries are thank you very much but no needed goodwills.  If a game is going to die tomorrow, I will bet you 1 to a million that it will not be WoW.  If WoW is going to die 10 years later, it is very ok for blizz.  They have already earned so much from 1 game that rivals the GDP of some small countries.

Originally posted by Orthedos

Originally posted by Mwaji

Originally posted by templarga

There is a difference when players are not in a game and playing because of technical or business issues like Blizzard has experienced in China and when they have left the game out of angry or boredom.

You make it sounds as if these players left and have not or will not ever come back to WOW.

My argument is it doesn't matter right now because we do not know how many will or will not return.

Blizzard got approval for WOTLK and when it launches in China, WOW will be fine and the servers being temporarily offline will be just another "do you remember when" story with no substance.

Sure, some players will move on and other's will come back, but to quote numbers right now and try and use those numbers to support someone's own personal agenda to prove that WOW is failing is a major, major statistical fallacy.

It really is no different than saying "OMG! WOW is down on Tuesday's when I tried to log-in. This game sucks and fails".

 

 

Yes possibly, but no telling how long the beta will take.

BUT thats not the point in the first place, thats just the derailment job. The point is that WoW is sufficiently doing the job of screwing itself on multiple levels at the moment, from pvp balance, somehow forgetting 6 million Chinese players and figuring out how to make tanking not possible in the next patch  and some guy wants to make a forum topic about how WoW is just oh so WOW and WAR is doing terrible? But temporary problems lead to bigger problems.. I think WAR proved that.

As for " the numbers" you don't like to use as you say it would not be fair, on the other hand if wow actually did have 11 million players again you would not Hesistate to throw it around.. which you have done in the past.. over and over again. So coming from you it's perhaps a bit disingenuous.

 

That is double standard, to the extreme.  You talk statistics?  What is statistics?  Not just random and biased use of a few handpicked numbers.  Statistics, properly used, is a fair way to present the numbers to represent the real world phenomena the statistics are meant to model.  You are not presenting statistics, you are manipulating numbers to distort the "reality".  You are not modelling, you are well near lying.

What is the actual series of statistics relevant?  It should be a time series, showing the steady rise of WoW sub number from 1m at start to 12m recently.  The long term trend is upward, that is the time series.  There are events plotted along side, that would explain or show extra information, events like big patches, expansions (BC, Wotlk), events like major launch from competitors, such as WAR, AoC, events like the chinese servers shut down, events like new localisation (Russian servers).  With all those presented, we should be seeing a steady rise despite all the competitors, we would be able to see that the chinese servers incidence represent an issue shutting down all chinese servers, but the other servers are still growing.  OK this is the proper use of statistics, not your way of showing total doom, just quoting 12m and 5m, just 2 numbers out of a long series, and just quoting 2 extreme numbers, skipping all details relevant.

As for WoW itself, I think it is very health.  It is undeniably the most lucrative game business currently.  All your "doomsday" worries are thank you very much but no needed goodwills.  If a game is going to die tomorrow, I will bet you 1 to a million that it will not be WoW.  If WoW is going to die 10 years later, it is very ok for blizz.  They have already earned so much from 1 game that rivals the GDP of some small countries.

Ok now that was obviously a Fanboi rage post, I know them by sight since most of them point out so called details or numbers and like clockwork they fail to point out any actual falsity in what I said. To Illustrate this I purpled out anything not relevant, the yellow are the number of times you bring up statistics, grids, or overall facts you are trying to bring up I used the color RED to show the statistics your actually talking about, however you didn't show any so I saved myself some time on that one.

Amazingly although its a given Fact that China dropped 6 million subs, you managed to grow WoWs subs number by a clear one million. I'm not distorting anything, China did indeed drop 6 million subs, now an honest argument would be to say that the servers are down and those 6 million will be back, at least that I can respect as logical. But given the competition from AION which is looking out to actually not suck. I don't know for certain if it can regain the Total of it's former total tally of players, and you don't either.

And thats not even accounting for the fact that WoW in in Beta again and no telling how long that will take as they have to rebalance the game without DKs so wont be able to use the same patch rotation we use. So were talking about an undetermined amount of downtime. Which could lead to more AION players. So Chinese success on re release for WOW China largely depends on AION being total crap. Which at this point is a clear generation away from WoW as far as graphics are concerned. The only argument that holds any water at this point is ( we will see). But you can't depend on every new mmorpg that competes with WoW to be terrible, someone will be the big white yeti eventually. I am veering off topic a bit with that but i do feel it relevant to the so called argument your trying to fabricate with the use of the word "statistics".

But I am just pointing out the current state of the game in spite of this WAR bashing topic, a game that has seen better days to be sure. But so has WoW, the topic at hand has little to do with speculation of if WoW will rebound or not, the fact is that is has to rebound in the first place from dropping the ball big time in China, not to mention problems people have with WOTLK, means that it is just as guilty of WAR of screwing up. And it's hardly a good time to Brag.

I think what you were trying to do was feed off Templarga's post maybe cause aggro on me a little bit.. but you Skipped all details relevant.