I am in very much in support for smaller companies producing MMOs and other games. However, it will be increasingly more difficult for them to match production values of the bigger titles. The lower production values show usually in polish, art, animation, voice, music, content and many other things.

The problem with smaller projects is also that they tend to reach for the stars when they should do smaller and more tailored products for specific audiences, aka specializing. They should try to avoid competition with the titles like World of Warcraft because they are just going to dissapoint players.

After SW: TOR comes out, with fully voiced, it will be even harder for smaller studios match the player expectations.

Originally posted by thexrated

I am in very much in support for smaller companies producing MMOs and other games. However, it will be increasingly more difficult for them to match production values of the bigger titles. The lower production values show usually in polish, art, animation, voice, music, content and many other things

Agree

The problem with smaller projects is also that they tend to reach for the stars when they should do smaller and more tailored products for specific audiences, aka specializing. They should try to avoid competition with the titles like World of Warcraft because they are just going to dissapoint players.

WOW wasn't THAT different from some other releases, it did manage to appeal to a very large crowd. What we have seen in the past is not the smaller indy devs, but the big, established companies who tried to aim for WoW-like sub numbers but fail badly.

After SW: TOR comes out, with fully voiced, it will be even harder for smaller studios match the player expectations.

I think that SW:TOR will have a huge initial appeal and attract gamers from a much wider pool than the current mmorpg fans, but we will still have to see whether that game has any lasting value! It could suffer from AOC's 'Post Tortage trauma' after the main story line ends; a sudden drop in richness to the gameplay which leaves people disappointed and look for something else.

What we haven't seen for some time though, is a great fantasy sandbox game, high on alternative gameplay options and freedom like what MO is intended to be. Like EVE, it could get better and better over the months after release while players shape their world and future, while storyline based games suggest the opposite; a sudden drop in interest after players digested the bulk of the ready-made content. We shall see.

Originally posted by DarkPony

Originally posted by thexrated

The problem with smaller projects is also that they tend to reach for the stars when they should do smaller and more tailored products for specific audiences, aka specializing. They should try to avoid competition with the titles like World of Warcraft because they are just going to dissapoint players.

WOW wasn't THAT different from some other releases, it did manage to appeal to a very large crowd. What we have seen in the past is not the smaller indy devs, but the big, established companies who tried to aim for WoW-like sub numbers but fail badly.

Well, what I ment was that it will be very hard for a small company to match that success with a similar product because they cannot match the production values. Developing MMOs and games in general is becoming a lot more expensive. I think the production values that the mass market expects today will be very hard for smaller studios to match. It was possible back when WoW and EVE was released, but not sure it is true anymore. There might be exception to this "rule", but I think it will hold true for MMOs.

After SW: TOR comes out, with fully voiced, it will be even harder for smaller studios match the player expectations.

I think that SW:TOR will have a huge initial appeal and attract gamers from a much wider pool than the current mmorpg fans, but we will still have to see whether that game has any lasting value! It could suffer from AOC's 'Post Tortage trauma' after the main story line ends; a sudden drop in richness to the gameplay which leaves people disappointed and look for something else.

What we haven't seen for some time though, is a great fantasy sandbox game, high on alternative gameplay options and freedom like what MO is intended to be. Like EVE, it could get better and better over the months after release while players shape their world and future, while storyline based games suggest the opposite; a sudden drop in interest after players digested the bulk of the ready-made content. We shall see.

I am not sure MMOs will continue to hold players for as many years as they currently do. I am happy if I get few months worth of entertainment out from SW:TOR. And if there is no hook to keep me there longer, it might still be a very good game and successful at that. I think we are moving away from the assumption that a successful MMO must have a very good customer retention rate for years.

We are very likely see a different subscription model for SW: TOR, as it has been hinted. 

I do not want to speculate on MO. I hope they pull it off and there is no doubt market for it. And yes, the hook in games like MO is not the same as with SW:TOR.

 

Originally posted by Genleo

Starvault does not have the manpower to produce a full fantasy world MMO within the time period slated.  They most likely will not have this game out by the end of the year, and if it is you can expect another darkfail or AOC.

 

Why would anyone trust a company with no reputation?? why give them 75 dollars or more...  They can't even get their page updated

 

this company has never made a game before...so chances are this will be their first mistake.  Maybe in the future they will produce better games, but for now you are just paying so they can get money and make a real game.

 

 

Such an odd post.    That's like suggesting Independent film companies should stop making movies or documentaries, Indepenent News sources should stop reporting news, etc.      Although start up companies often fail, they also succeed, and some of the most creative and innovative things come from them.      The "issue" is not the people who support companies creating products like MO, or DFO, but board warriors who find kicks in blasting those who do support them, with a chance that some fun and different games may appear.

Other

Originally posted by Sorrow

LOL you can hope...

I personally knew some guys who did this with another game in the past, they hyped it buzzed it sold it, cashed in, pulled the plug, waited 2 months changed the name rehyped it, buzzed it, cashed in again on the same game again, pulled the plug again, waited 6 months and did it again. It was kinda funny because if you hung around with these guys in the dev chat two or there of them would be totally honest about how it was all a scam and how much money they were making off stupid Americans.

Nobody ever learns, its like PT Barnum says, there is a sucker born every minute.

Unless P.T. Barnum is still alive I dont see him still saying that.  

BTW, I dont care about the game one way or another... just thought this was a comical response.  

"There is a sucker born every minute"-P.T. Barnum

"Dumb-ass"-Walter (Jeff Dunham)

Originally posted by Genleo

Starvault does not have the manpower to produce a full fantasy world MMO within the time period slated.  They most likely will not have this game out by the end of the year, and if it is you can expect another darkfail or AOC.

Why would anyone trust a company with no reputation?? why give them 75 dollars or more...  They can't even get their page updated

this company has never made a game before...so chances are this will be their first mistake.  Maybe in the future they will produce better games, but for now you are just paying so they can get money and make a real game.

Concern troll is concerned !!

As others have pointed out, indy projects have their advantages and disadvantages.  EVE shows us that indy projects can succeed if they have the right strengths and connect with the right audience.  Asheron's Call 2 and Tabula Rasa showed that established companies with experience in MMO creation could serve up a big cup of fail.  Your concern would be a lot more credible if it was more consistent.                                

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/200039/page/1 --RE: Darkfall:  "How can 5 people make this game!!"

Or is your concern due to getting burned by Tasos et al. ?

lol yeah lets let the big companies spoon feed our next 10 years of mmos instead. If we support the smaller companies we might actaully stand a chance of getting something new and innovative.

Originally posted by Rekindle

lol yeah lets let the big companies spoon feed our next 10 years of mmos instead. If we support the smaller companies we might actaully stand a chance of getting something new and innovative.

I agree 150% with this.

Originally posted by Genleo

Starvault does not have the manpower to produce a full fantasy world MMO within the time period slated.  They most likely will not have this game out by the end of the year, and if it is you can expect another darkfail or AOC.

 

Why would anyone trust a company with no reputation?? why give them 75 dollars or more...  They can't even get their page updated

 

this company has never made a game before...so chances are this will be their first mistake.  Maybe in the future they will produce better games, but for now you are just paying so they can get money and make a real game.

 

 

this is going to sound odd coming from a Darkfall fan like myself but I got to say for the record what you say is crazy talk.

Small companies CAN make MMO's and in fact in some cases make them even better. I am sorry but EQ2/WOW formula is pretty basic and not hard to make better as long as the bulk of your audience is over the age of 12

The MO community is still disgusting and I wouldnt play it if you paid me but on this I got to defend.

 

I actually agree with OP.

Starvault and Aventurine, really this guys give info on irc ... their amateur level was proven to many times. Please.. dont try to defend them, we are not 10 years ago..

Thats why probable i will play wow until NEXT GEN MMO from Blizzard will come out... you know guys.. Blizzard do the rules.

Originally posted by tokenizer

I actually agree with OP.

Starvault and Aventurine, really this guys give info on irc ... their amateur level was proven to many times. Please.. dont try to defend them, we are not 10 years ago..

Thats why probable i will play wow until NEXT GEN MMO from Blizzard will come out... you know guys.. Blizzard do the rules.

But WoW is a cartoon and I know first hand that not all gamers like cartoons so your forumla is failed.

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by tokenizer

I actually agree with OP.

Starvault and Aventurine, really this guys give info on irc ... their amateur level was proven to many times. Please.. dont try to defend them, we are not 10 years ago..

Thats why probable i will play wow until NEXT GEN MMO from Blizzard will come out... you know guys.. Blizzard do the rules.

 

But WoW is a cartoon and I know first hand that not all gamers like cartoons so your forumla is failed.

 

You missunderstand me, is not about WoW here, is about Starvault and Aventurine... both companies took the problem way to naive.. to much amatorism... seriously, look at rock solid companies who makes mmo today what they offer.. they got past experience also, so any future product, must be better that past ones, and also, give them some credits thats they can do it.

And that said, even BIG companies have problems some times... what shall i expect from little companies, with NO games tittle behind... do they really got enought experience to make it? Wisdom is not enought sometimes...

Originally posted by tokenizer

 

You missunderstand me, is not about WoW here, is about Starvault and Aventurine... both companies took the problem way to naive.. to much amatorism... seriously, look at rock solid companies who makes mmo today what they offer.. they got past experience also, so any future product, must be better that past ones, and also, give them some credits thats they can do it.

And that said, even BIG companies have problems some times... what shall i expect from little companies, with NO games tittle behind... do they really got enought experience to make it? Wisdom is not enought sometimes...

1. Billzard was at one time a small start up company. I recall them during that time.

2. what billzard makes in my view is mostly just trash so I do not see their games as evidence that large companies make better games.

dig?

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by tokenizer

 

You missunderstand me, is not about WoW here, is about Starvault and Aventurine... both companies took the problem way to naive.. to much amatorism... seriously, look at rock solid companies who makes mmo today what they offer.. they got past experience also, so any future product, must be better that past ones, and also, give them some credits thats they can do it.

And that said, even BIG companies have problems some times... what shall i expect from little companies, with NO games tittle behind... do they really got enought experience to make it? Wisdom is not enought sometimes...

 

1. Billzard was at one time a small start up company. I recall them during that time.

2. what billzard makes in my view is mostly just trash so I do not see their games as evidence that large companies make better games.

 dig?

1. That was more that 18 years ago... we talk about different stuff today and expectation..

2. Your view dont represent the majority of opinions, but the point is, ALL what Blizzard did in the past was TOP games. Got it now?

Originally posted by tokenizer

 

1. That was more that 18 years ago... we talk about different stuff today and expectation..

2. Your view dont represent the majority of opinions, but the point is, ALL what Blizzard did in the past was TOP games. Got it now?

so what you are saying is that nobody can be the next blizzard. Only the currently large companies are allowed to have been small at one time and create great games.

Sorry, no.

not to mention, Blizzard makes crap games anyway regardless of what the majority thinks..;)

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by tokenizer

 

1. That was more that 18 years ago... we talk about different stuff today and expectation..

2. Your view dont represent the majority of opinions, but the point is, ALL what Blizzard did in the past was TOP games. Got it now?

 

so what you are saying is that nobody can be the next blizzard. Only the currently large companies are allowed to have been small at one time and create great games.

Sorry, no.

not to mention, Blizzard makes crap games anyway regardless of what the majority thinks..;)

Well.. you really need to have BALLS to possible challange a company like Blizzard talking about games strictly.

You think an indie group have any chance to make a step so big from first game? Think again...

Originally posted by tokenizer

 

Well.. you really need to have BALLS to possible challange a company like Blizzard talking about games strictly.

You think an indie group have any chance to make a step so big from first game? Think again...

1. an indy game does not ever have to be as big as blizzard to be successful and even small firms can change the gaming landscape forever.

2. monopoly kills creativity, it would be nice if gamers would stop making it even harder for indy games than it already is.

this is ironical coming from a gamer (me) who loaths the MO community :)
 

  Have you even watched the beta or alpha pve videos on youtube? The interaction between player and monster was awesome. Also i would like to add look at the rate blizzard is making everything easier and more bland. (armor sets looking the same, classes having almost identical tier armor, pala and warlock being their favorite class, taking away alot of challenge and putting in patches for 12 year olds and below.) The bigger you are the higher the expectations the more expectation the more you will fail to appeal to those expectations and the more you will plumit. to. the. Ground. This is why they are making a new mmo. Wow is slowly going to hell, this is their escape plan. You dig?

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by Genleo

Starvault does not have the manpower to produce a full fantasy world MMO within the time period slated.  They most likely will not have this game out by the end of the year, and if it is you can expect another darkfail or AOC.

 

Why would anyone trust a company with no reputation?? why give them 75 dollars or more...  They can't even get their page updated

 

this company has never made a game before...so chances are this will be their first mistake.  Maybe in the future they will produce better games, but for now you are just paying so they can get money and make a real game.

 

 

 

this is going to sound odd coming from a Darkfall fan like myself but I got to say for the record what you say is crazy talk.

Small companies CAN make MMO's and in fact in some cases make them even better. I am sorry but EQ2/WOW formula is pretty basic and not hard to make better as long as the bulk of your audience is over the age of 12

The MO community is still disgusting and I wouldnt play it if you paid me but on this I got to defend.

 

That is quite a statement coming from a DF player and rabid fanboy who proved more than once to be a complete douche on the DF forums LOL. And nobody will pay you to play MO because nobody wants you there sorry pal.

Originally posted by Scoorge

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by Genleo

Starvault does not have the manpower to produce a full fantasy world MMO within the time period slated.  They most likely will not have this game out by the end of the year, and if it is you can expect another darkfail or AOC.

 

Why would anyone trust a company with no reputation?? why give them 75 dollars or more...  They can't even get their page updated

 

this company has never made a game before...so chances are this will be their first mistake.  Maybe in the future they will produce better games, but for now you are just paying so they can get money and make a real game.

 

 

 

this is going to sound odd coming from a Darkfall fan like myself but I got to say for the record what you say is crazy talk.

Small companies CAN make MMO's and in fact in some cases make them even better. I am sorry but EQ2/WOW formula is pretty basic and not hard to make better as long as the bulk of your audience is over the age of 12

The MO community is still disgusting and I wouldnt play it if you paid me but on this I got to defend.

 

 

That is quite a statement coming from a DF player and rabid fanboy who proved more than once to be a complete douche on the DF forums LOL. And nobody will pay you to play MO because nobody wants you there sorry pal.

You aren't exactly proving him the opposite either, Scoorge :-/

Personally I think every high on pvp mmorpg will attract a good amount of wankers, to put it mildly (not that I have anything against PK'ers, though. It is more the general attitude of some young guys).

Though MO has plenty to go for it in appealing to a more adult, role play minded crowd as well. More than DF I think. As soon as SV will put up an RP server I am heading that way for sure. And I'll team up with a likeminded crowd untill then.

I'll come with you dark pony :D

Originally posted by Genleo

Starvault does not have the manpower to produce a full fantasy world MMO within the time period slated.  They most likely will not have this game out by the end of the year, and if it is you can expect another darkfail or AOC.

 

Why would anyone trust a company with no reputation?? why give them 75 dollars or more...  They can't even get their page updated

 

this company has never made a game before...so chances are this will be their first mistake.  Maybe in the future they will produce better games, but for now you are just paying so they can get money and make a real game.

 

 

For the same reason I have payed for many underground albums even only few of them become famous. Do you expect everyone to listen Britney Spears?

All this ranting and raging about Blizzard and WoW.

Blizzard about 18 years ago was a no-body firm that had a dream of making games.... 

A few years later, they were contracted to make a game for Gamesworkshop,  A game based on the Warhammer Fantasy table top game.    Gamesworkshop didnt like the product so pulled their envolvment,   Blizzard had a working game they changed a few things, and the name, and created Warcraft.    And the rest is history.

The point is, every company has to start from somewhere.   Bioware, Besthesda, Blizzard, CAPCOM, Mythic,  Funcom.   All started as nobody firms.     Now look at them.

Originally posted by Lolpigs

I'll come with you dark pony :D

Cool. I'll let you know my ingame name once I have one :)

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by Genleo

Starvault does not have the manpower to produce a full fantasy world MMO within the time period slated.  They most likely will not have this game out by the end of the year, and if it is you can expect another darkfail or AOC.

 

Why would anyone trust a company with no reputation?? why give them 75 dollars or more...  They can't even get their page updated

 

this company has never made a game before...so chances are this will be their first mistake.  Maybe in the future they will produce better games, but for now you are just paying so they can get money and make a real game.

 

 

You have to realise that there has been years since an MMORPG was released that catered to free world FFA PvP players and those players are desperate to get a game like that instead of the spoon-feeding, themepark, WoW-clone nonsense.

I personally believe this to be the last hope we get for a FFA PvP MMORPG because of Darkfalls failure. So that is why I paid that money for a game that does not exist yet and which state I know very little about. But I have faith that the game will turn out to be, if not great, atleast a playable FFA PvP game.

That being said I don't agree with the way Starvault is handling this. Charging that much money for a game that is in pre-alpha is not a way to attract future customers so either they must be desperate for money or really greedy. However, seeing as they use the UT 3 engine, which cost upwards of $500.000, I doubt it is greed.

So, if you are into FFA PvP MMORPGs, have faith. :)

Sure it's nice to see a FFA PvP world. Yet I don't consider the fact of NO INFORMATION about the game, just take a look at the main website under races, everything has been "Description to come..." for eons. How does one know wtf this game is about if they don't update information?

The last time I paid $ for faith was when I was a kid and my mother used to force me to give to the church. Well I've grown up a bit since then and paying for faith is bullshit, over rated and opening you up for Bush culisms.

I do not mind prepurchasing a game when you know what you're putting your money into. So how can they afford to do this as it makes absolutely no sense to me. Either I wait for 2 years for all this testing to be over and see the end result or I leave and find something else even though the MMO market for my style looks bleak indeed. Yet I am not going to risk another failed MMO because of faith in something that I cannot find anything out about.

What next, $70 for a pre alpha F2P MMO, please.....