Originally posted by ZivaDomini

Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

Originally posted by ZivaDomini

You guys are trying to put the definitions of Dynamic and Static into the word Persistant, and I don't know why.

Persistant:

Def 1.Never Ceasing. When you log off, is the game still there? Yes. It does not cease to exist.

Def 2. Retained. Again, when you log off, is it still there? yes.

Def 3. Continuity. Does things continue to happen? Yes. People still play, missions are still accomplished.

Nowhere, in any of those 3 definitions do any of the other things you guys are talking about occur. They are not even hinted at.

There is nothing to stop the game from being Static, or Dynamic. However there is no dynamic persistance, or static persistance. The game IS persistant. They are both adjectives describing the game itself. The game would be a massively multiplayer online role playing game, where the world is dynamic AND persistant. Not Dynamic persistant.

 

The problem with your definition is that even a Counter-Strike server that runs the same map 24/7 could be considered a "persistent world."

 

That's not "my" definition. That is THE definition of Persistant. Look it up. It's plainly defined in dictionary.com.

FPSs are NOT persistant worlds. Because the worlds reset each time.Whenever you end the game, that world ends. It no longer exists in any form at all. The maps reset entirely.  Just because your character saves it's rewards or unlocks or whatever you call them, doesn't make the world persistant. It simply means your character was saved.

A persistant world and a saved character are not the same thing.

 

Editted for better definition.

Persistent World. Yes, I know it's wikipedia but I found the first sentence to be adequate.

You can also try:

nwn.bioware.com/players/profile_persistent_worlds_introduction.html

That's what we're talking about. Obviously the English language definition is slightly different.

Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

Originally posted by ZivaDomini

You guys are trying to put the definitions of Dynamic and Static into the word Persistant, and I don't know why.

Persistant:

Def 1.Never Ceasing. When you log off, is the game still there? Yes. It does not cease to exist.

Def 2. Retained. Again, when you log off, is it still there? yes.

Def 3. Continuity. Does things continue to happen? Yes. People still play, missions are still accomplished.

Nowhere, in any of those 3 definitions do any of the other things you guys are talking about occur. They are not even hinted at.

There is nothing to stop the game from being Static, or Dynamic. However there is no dynamic persistance, or static persistance. The game IS persistant. They are both adjectives describing the game itself. The game would be a massively multiplayer online role playing game, where the world is dynamic AND persistant. Not Dynamic persistant.

 

The problem with your definition is that even a Counter-Strike server that runs the same map 24/7 could be considered a "persistent world."

Not true. The game resets and the characters do not keep what they gather during the previous map. You're confusing "persistent" with "static" now. :) 

Originally posted by heartless

nwn.bioware.com/players/profile_persistent_worlds_introduction.html

That's what we're talking about. Obviously the English language definition is slightly different.

That also supports the dictionary definition of it. Brynsaar doesn't reset or get shut off when you log off. The game world is persistent. The dynamic or static nature of that world is independent of its persistence.

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by heartless

nwn.bioware.com/players/profile_persistent_worlds_introduction.html

That's what we're talking about. Obviously the English language definition is slightly different.

 

That also supports the dictionary definition of it. Brynsaar doesn't reset or get shut off when you log off. The game world is persistent. The dynamic or static nature of that world is independent of its persistence.

2. What is a Persistent World (PW)?

Lycius: A world you can log into 24/7 with plots and events evolving as time passes. There's no pause key nor save option; what you do has consequences you can't undo with a click of a button.

4. Can I affect the world I am playing in?

Image 1 - Introduction to Persistent Worlds Lycius: Definitely! Without the actions of players, PWs would be dull and boring. Just think, you could be the hero that saves day or the mastermind behind a major conflict. Most worlds run on events engineered by staff members of that world. Most likely you could change the outcome of these events through roleplay, actions, or great ideas. It all depends on what kind of persistent world you're playing on; RP or action. I would think most of the staff members have an open mind to new suggestions and twists that their 'pre-scripted' events might take.

I think those passages support it nicely.

Dynamic and static are part of the "Persistent World" concept of MMOs.

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by heartless

nwn.bioware.com/players/profile_persistent_worlds_introduction.html

That's what we're talking about. Obviously the English language definition is slightly different.

 

That also supports the dictionary definition of it. Brynsaar doesn't reset or get shut off when you log off. The game world is persistent. The dynamic or static nature of that world is independent of its persistence.

 

2. What is a Persistent World (PW)?

Lycius: A world you can log into 24/7 with plots and events evolving as time passes. There's no pause key nor save option; what you do has consequences you can't undo with a click of a button.

4. Can I affect the world I am playing in?

Image 1 - Introduction to Persistent Worlds Lycius: Definitely! Without the actions of players, PWs would be dull and boring. Just think, you could be the hero that saves day or the mastermind behind a major conflict. Most worlds run on events engineered by staff members of that world. Most likely you could change the outcome of these events through roleplay, actions, or great ideas. It all depends on what kind of persistent world you're playing on; RP or action. I would think most of the staff members have an open mind to new suggestions and twists that their 'pre-scripted' events might take.

I think those passages support it nicely.

Dynamic and static are part of the "Persistent World" concept of MMOs.

I think you're looking at a PR piece for a game and using it as a definition there.  I think, too, that you might be taking it out of context. He is defining a persistent world in such a way as to explain to NWN fans how this is different from a regular NWN game. That's actually the purpose of that interview. He selling the cool features of his game.

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by heartless

nwn.bioware.com/players/profile_persistent_worlds_introduction.html

That's what we're talking about. Obviously the English language definition is slightly different.

 

That also supports the dictionary definition of it. Brynsaar doesn't reset or get shut off when you log off. The game world is persistent. The dynamic or static nature of that world is independent of its persistence.

 

2. What is a Persistent World (PW)?

Lycius: A world you can log into 24/7 with plots and events evolving as time passes. There's no pause key nor save option; what you do has consequences you can't undo with a click of a button.

4. Can I affect the world I am playing in?

Image 1 - Introduction to Persistent Worlds Lycius: Definitely! Without the actions of players, PWs would be dull and boring. Just think, you could be the hero that saves day or the mastermind behind a major conflict. Most worlds run on events engineered by staff members of that world. Most likely you could change the outcome of these events through roleplay, actions, or great ideas. It all depends on what kind of persistent world you're playing on; RP or action. I would think most of the staff members have an open mind to new suggestions and twists that their 'pre-scripted' events might take.

I think those passages support it nicely.

Dynamic and static are part of the "Persistent World" concept of MMOs.

 

I think you're looking at a PR piece for a game and using it as a definition there.  I think, too, that you might be taking it out of context. He is defining a persistent world in such a way as to explain to NWN fans how this is different from a regular NWN game. That's actually the purpose of that interview. He selling the cool features of his game.

How about en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistent_world then? Or is that not valid because it's wikipedia?

The first sentence reads "A persistent world (PW) is a virtual world that continues to exist even after a user exits the world and that user-made changes to its state are, to some extent, permanent."

Or "That aspect is similar to the real world where events do occur regardless if they are directly or indirectly related to a person, as they continue to happen while a person is asleep, etc. Conversely, a player's character can also influence and change a persistent world."

Edit: look, I am well aware of the English meaning of the word. In my opinion the definition of "persistent" in context of games, implies change to the game's world while you're not there. The more drastic the change, the more persistent the game world feels.

Think of it as life in a game versus no life in a game.

When I load up, for example, Halo, the game world starts running.  When I turn it off, the Halo "environment" stops running and nothing can happen in that "environment".

In a Persistent game, when you turn it off, the "environment" continues to be active and things can continue to happen in the "environment".  Its a simple as that.  Static versus Dynamic have nothing to do it.  Whether something actually happens in the "environment" doesn't matter.  The problem I think some of you are having is you're applying the broad definition of "persistent" in a static sense rather than a relative sense.  Nothing, from a static perspective, is persistent in a virtual environment.  Simply remove power from the source providing the virtual environment, and you've no longer got a persistent environment.

On the other hand, relative to an individual, something like an MMORPG is persistent as the MMORPG (as long as its running) continues to be an active environment in which things CAN (not necessarily will) happen regardless of the individual.  If it is impossible for something to happen even when the individual is not interacting with the game (most single-player games) then it is not persistent in any sense of the word.

"Edit: look, I am well aware of the English meaning of the word. In my opinion the definition of "persistent" in context of games, implies change to the game's world while you're not there. The more drastic the change, the more persistent the game world feels."

I think you're honestly thinking of dynamic. Because what you've just said is basically what dynamic is. The more drastic the change, the more dynamic the world feels.

The game IS persistant. No matter what it feels like. It just is. It's like saying is their air or not? You can't see it, taste it, smell it ect ect, but it IS there. It's a fact. The same with Persistance. The world IS persistant no matter what it feels like.

However, people keep trying to add the word dynamic to the word persistant, and make them 1 definition. They're just not. They are two seperate words, with two different meanings. One can be related to the other, but they are not inherantly related.

Originally posted by ZivaDomini

"Edit: look, I am well aware of the English meaning of the word. In my opinion the definition of "persistent" in context of games, implies change to the game's world while you're not there. The more drastic the change, the more persistent the game world feels."

I think you're honestly thinking of dynamic. Because what you've just said is basically what dynamic is. The more drastic the change, the more dynamic the world feels.

The game IS persistant. No matter what it feels like. It just is. It's like saying is their air or not? You can't see it, taste it, smell it ect ect, but it IS there. It's a fact. The same with Persistance. The world IS persistant no matter what it feels like.

 

However, people keep trying to add the word dynamic to the word persistant, and make them 1 definition. They're just not. They are two seperate words, with two different meanings. One can be related to the other, but they are not inherantly related.

The words "persistent" and "dynamic" are two separate words. However, when used in context of video games, the term is "persistent world" and words "dynamic" and "static" are words describing that term.

I didn't make this term up.

Read this:

www.journalism.wisc.edu/~mjchen/spring2007/david/doom.htm

Pay especially close attention to this "A persistent world is influenced by the actions of the players that are in the game at any particular point in time, even capable of being altered by those players, such that when our example player reconnects to the game world, he may find that things are different than when he left."

Persistent worlds feel more persistent when they are dynamic because the fact that the game always changes (EVE), emulate our world much closer then games with static worlds (WoW).

Again, I'm not talking about the English language definition of the words "static," "dynamic" and "persistent." I'm talking about the term "persistent world" and how static and dynamic relate to it.

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by ZivaDomini

"Edit: look, I am well aware of the English meaning of the word. In my opinion the definition of "persistent" in context of games, implies change to the game's world while you're not there. The more drastic the change, the more persistent the game world feels."

I think you're honestly thinking of dynamic. Because what you've just said is basically what dynamic is. The more drastic the change, the more dynamic the world feels.

The game IS persistant. No matter what it feels like. It just is. It's like saying is their air or not? You can't see it, taste it, smell it ect ect, but it IS there. It's a fact. The same with Persistance. The world IS persistant no matter what it feels like.

 

However, people keep trying to add the word dynamic to the word persistant, and make them 1 definition. They're just not. They are two seperate words, with two different meanings. One can be related to the other, but they are not inherantly related.

The words "persistent" and "dynamic" are two separate words. However, when used in context of video games, the term is "persistent world" and words "dynamic" and "static" are words describing that term.

I didn't make this term up.

Read this:

www.journalism.wisc.edu/~mjchen/spring2007/david/doom.htm

Pay especially close attention to this "A persistent world is influenced by the actions of the players that are in the game at any particular point in time, even capable of being altered by those players, such that when our example player reconnects to the game world, he may find that things are different than when he left."

Persistent worlds feel more persistent when they are dynamic because the fact that the game always changes (EVE), emulate our world much closer then games with static worlds (WoW).

Again, I'm not talking about the English language definition of the words "static," "dynamic" and "persistent." I'm talking about the term "persistent world" and how static and dynamic relate to it.

The quote you offer is a description of a persistent world, not a definition of one.  Let me re-word that quote in a way that says the exact same thing, but without any "dynamic" implications.

"A persistent world is influenced by the actions of an individual that are in the game at any particular point in time, even capable of being altered by those individuals, such that when our example player reconnects to the game world, he may find that nothing is different than when he left."

Still true because a persistent world, even by the description you quoted, doesn't have to change.  Merely has the capability of changing.  At no point does a "persistent world" have to change an inch for it to gain its "persistent" qualification.  It merely has to have the capability.

Out of pure curiosity, how can something feel more "persistent"?  A world can feel more dynamic via your definition, but there is no scale of "persistent" there is only "persistent" and "not persistent".

You can use the word in several different contexts like you did to have it mean various different things, but ultimately is means something that is continuous.  You could use the webster.com meaning of "to continue to exist especially past a usual, expected or normal time."

I think the meaning the way you were explaining will come from what you are currently in reference to...such as the stats for a team or the world in an online game...perhaps even the consumption of coke.  It's all relative and can be used in many different contexts.

-Thafireball

Look, this is really a pointless discussion.

You: "A Persistent world continues even when your character is not present."

Me: "Yes"

Me: "A persistent world feels more 'real' (for the lack of better word), when it's dynamic."

You: "Dynamic and persistent are different words."

Me: "Dynamic and static are used to describe the term 'persistent world' therefore in this context they are related."

You: "The game world doesn't have to be dynamic to be persistent."

I'm trying to understand where the miscommunication is occurring. Maybe I've had a few too many?

Originally posted by heartless

The words "persistent" and "dynamic" are two separate words. However, when used in context of video games, the term is "persistent world" and words "dynamic" and "static" are words describing that term.

I didn't make this term up.

Read this:

www.journalism.wisc.edu/~mjchen/spring2007/david/doom.htm

Pay especially close attention to this "A persistent world is influenced by the actions of the players that are in the game at any particular point in time, even capable of being altered by those players, such that when our example player reconnects to the game world, he may find that things are different than when he left."

Persistent worlds feel more persistent when they are dynamic because the fact that the game always changes (EVE), emulate our world much closer then games with static worlds (WoW).

Again, I'm not talking about the English language definition of the words "static," "dynamic" and "persistent." I'm talking about the term "persistent world" and how static and dynamic relate to it.

Ah. Now I understand. Thanks for taking time to explain that, Heartless!

Originally posted by LynxJSA 

Ah. Now I understand. Thanks for taking time to explain that, Heartless!

 

No problem, man. Sometimes I have a hard time explaining myself maybe that's why this whole confusion lasted so long.

Well that's just freakin magical...  Heartless won the thread.  Now what the hell are we supposed to do?