Originally posted by pussaykat

I'm currently playing Final fantasy 4, 7th saga, chrono trigger, breath of fire 1 and some other old rpg. I enjoy those very much when my current mmog isn't delivering at the moment. Point is they don't make single player rpg anymore, it's all mmog. Either that or my store doesn't carry titles like that.

I've done something similar. Fired up Wizardry 8 and I have been playing that a lot lately. Thinking about picking up a second copy of Dungeon Lords and playing that multiplayer with my Wife.

Originally posted by pussaykat

I'm currently playing Final fantasy 4, 7th saga, chrono trigger, breath of fire 1 and some other old rpg. I enjoy those very much when my current mmog isn't delivering at the moment. Point is they don't make single player rpg anymore, it's all mmog. Either that or my store doesn't carry titles like that.

Fallout 3? Oblivion?

Yuck who talks to people in MMOs anyway? SOLO FTW.

Lol..if u were gonna write this much u shoulda wrote a blog.

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by pussaykat

I'm currently playing Final fantasy 4, 7th saga, chrono trigger, breath of fire 1 and some other old rpg. I enjoy those very much when my current mmog isn't delivering at the moment. Point is they don't make single player rpg anymore, it's all mmog. Either that or my store doesn't carry titles like that.

 

Fallout 3? Oblivion?

I've actually looked into it and there seems to be fable that's worth my attention.

MMORPGs today = single player RPG without challenge while in a chat room talking about chuck norris with other dumbasses.  This fucking genre is dead.

Totally agree. MMOs, imo, are about community. The more solo friendly a game is the worse the community.

Originally posted by brostyn

Totally agree. MMOs, imo, are about community. The more solo friendly a game is the worse the community.

Community =/= grouping.

Community = / = Racing to max level without social interaction

Originally posted by ToteLeeLost

Community = / = Racing to max level

There's a lot of things community isn't, but his point still stands. The forced grouping crowd believes that grouping = social interaction and that grouping = community. One really has nothing to do with the other except that people who are normally not social will eventually, given enough downtime, talk to the guy next to them.

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by brostyn

Totally agree. MMOs, imo, are about community. The more solo friendly a game is the worse the community.

 

Community =/= grouping.

I couldn't agree more. Forced grouping = forced community/socializing

The best games are the ones that make you have a community and socialize without you going out of your way to do it.

Seriously, is everyone forgetting an average grouping experience which happens 9 times out of 10?

One person goes AFK all the time, another one gets angry, they yell at each other, everyone else goes /sigh..... one or more quits, group stands around looking for a replacement, gets a replacement, waits on the replacement, by then someone else has to go, find another replacement, rinse and repeat....by the end of the night, you have 30 minutes of actual playing time.

People can complain about solo MMO's and community's where people solo and all of that but I think its just a fact we have short memory. I can remember in DAOC being kicked from groups or being asked a million and one questions after getting invited (or before) about being a "fit" for the group or having the right skill, talent, gear, etc.....

The point is....the problems and issues haven't changed since EQ, just the type of problems and issues has.

Yeah, there is no more downtime in MMORPGs anymore.  To me, a community is a group of people who rely on each other.  Help each other.  Work together for a common goal.

In today's soloable, casual MMORPGs you don't need to rely on anyone else.  You can grind your ass to max level without speaking a word to anyone.  That is not a community where I come from.

A community is suppose to be full of different personalities.  The good, the bad, and the ones who walk the line of the grey area. 

There will be the lone wolf and there will be the charismatic leader, there are also loyal and noble players and there will also be back stabbing traitors.  That is what a community is, a population full of different personalities existing in the same world (in this case, a MMORPG server).  Whether they group or solo is a moot point, community exist whether people solo or group.

Originally posted by Ozarumon

So I heard from a couple people that post here on their ideas of soloing I heard that people who raid should not be allowed gear that gives them huge benefits over those who solo I also hear a lot that there should be solo dungeons where people go through dungeons solo and get loot on par to those who go in group dungeons.

 

Why? Soloing is easy, if it was hard you would need more than one person. and if everything can be soloed and not grouped what does that say for classes that have it harder to solo than those who dont IE pet classes vs healing classes. Should people who play pet classes be allowed to plow through content and get gear easier and faster than those who have harder jobs/classes?

 

Why do people like soloing in a mmorpg? You plow through content no matter how slow you take it, its still fast when soloing, you solo and beat all the content then what? You want for a new patch to come a long when can take months for more content. Soloing is what is killing mmorpgs now a days.

Even single player RPGS do not have soloing, you are always grouped with other characters or NPCs. Any so called solo rpg IE legend of zelda is classified as an adeventure game or hack and slash or dungeon crawler not a RPG. Companys today are trying their hardest to balance soloing and group play that it will always hurt group play. The easier you make solo the less people want to group, the less content there will be to group. Lets take WoW for example after you solo all the way to 80 there are what 7 small man dungeons and 4 raids, before content patch there were three PVE raids.

 

Now take those numbers and what % of the content is that? Especially for raiders they have to see the same four raids over and over and over again just to get loot. Solo players have many different sites and quest to go by alone. The instances now a days even for any new mmorpg are just that fast instansted content, group  play does not even have options we are told to go here if we want to group.

 

Yes we can group in solo content but why? we are hit hard for exp if we invite some one, the quest are longer, not kill quest but definately loot quest are much longer. It is much more of a pain in the ass to group than to solo in the solo aspect of the game. and even if we did group it just makes the game 100x more easier than it already is, grouping is supposed to be a challenge, overcoming challenges with others not plow through content asap.

Should there be some soloing in games, yes there should be, should soloing be the main aspect of mmorpgs like it is today? No

The old, "if you wanna solo, go play a single player game." Eh?
 

So, for you, the MMO experience is all about the community?  The comraderie and chatting with your friends, right?

If you wanna talk, why not spend your time in a chat room?  You don't want a game, you want to socialize.  I recommend Second Life, or an online RP site.

See, it goes both ways.

Btw:  Oblivion is a Single Player RPG, that does not require a party, and is still labeled as an RPG.

More on topic:

I do agree that if the game is to be group based, then grouping should be the primary means of play.  The issue is, that group based play is not as popular as some folks (like the OP) thinks.  Sub numbers proves this.

Sadly for you OP, the future is what I call a SPOG: Single Player Online Game.  This would be most like a SP RPG, but with persistant, online worlds that allow grouping and socializing, but playing the game solo is the main focus.  The MMO trend is this way anyways.

The fact is, the current MMO model is not about challenge.  The critter is too tough to solo?   Throw more people at it.   This is a recipe for boredom born out of laziness on the Dev's part.  You mentioned Legend of Zelda.  While not your intention, the Zelda series is an excellent example of how a game can be fun, challenging, deep and engaging without the tired old MMO model that is simply this: Throw more damage at the mob.

Think about it, MMO's are so base and simple that macroing and botting are issues.  Ever hear of Zelda being macroed?  For instance, healing in a MMO can be summed up this way:  Ally health drops to X%, hit button.  Tanking: Hit taunt feature till threat > 80%.   DPS:  Set rotation (2  to 4 skills) until energy = 0, then spam skill X until mob is dead.  To equip your character, don't explore; don't even think, but rather, run the same instance over and over until the desired loot drops, then repeat for the next better gear.  Yeah, total challenge and immersion there. 

Given this level of boredom, no wonder you want to group.  After all, drama, whining, bragging, and general carrying on IS more fun than playing the game.  At least that is a form of action.  The fact is, MMO's need to ramp up the player engagement whether game features Groups, Raids, Solo, PVP or RVR.

If a game is so boring that you would rather chat, or, if the gameplay is so repetitive and slow that you have tons of time to do nothing but yack, it might be time for players and devs alike to take a new look at the genre.  It's survival depends on it.

Originally posted by ToteLeeLost

Community = / = Racing to max level without social interaction

Social interaction =/= grouping.

I think any MMO that wants to be successful today has to allow for both.  

I think it's possible for both styles to be accomodated, without one giving preference over the other.   For instance, I think a game like Wow gives preference to soloing while levelling and then grouping at the end.

Devs just won't or more likely choose not to equally satisfy both due to costs.    

Imagine a dungeon with two paths to the loot;  one has mobs difficult enough that they are virtually unsoloable, but the other path can be soloed.   However, to take the solo path, the player has to do a series of quests that ultimately give him a key, or attunement, or something that lets him and only him into the 2nd path.   These quests might be very time consuming, taking the player all over the world.

Now, the groupers can go in path A, and within an hour or two get to the treasure room.   The soloers can take the long way.  Both give the same rewards.

According to many pro-groupers; if it can be soloed, it will be.   I do not believe that's true if it's done right.    However, many of those same pro-groupers do not truly want challenges that cannot be done solo, they want rewards that cannot be obtained solo (apologies to those groupers that do not feel this way).

This is elitism:  'I worked harder so I get the better prize'.    It's only harder if the devs make it that way, it doesn't have to be.

Soloing or Grouping is a decision that should be left up to the player .. not the developers.

Preach it brother...

Can I get an amen?

Im not sure what games your playing that are being "ruined" by soloing.  As many have mentioned, its up to individual preference for a player to play a game the way they enjoy.  I prefer to solo, I find it more challening often times than not and that is fun for me. Grouping is less fun, generally because I prefer to do things my way.  

In every MMORPG I have played and thats from Meridian 59 and onward, I solo primarily. However each game has made a point of steering the player towards group activites by including group quests or instanced dungeons that require more than one player.

Its all in how the game is created. If people are given an option to play in a fashion that suits them, they will.

I like the leveling pace Vanguard sets.  Solo quests with a ton of group quests and chellenges.  That way you can do either.  Just wish Vanguard was a better game.

i solo cause i can and group when i have to i could care less what a game sets out as group only or solo content i play the game how every i want, does that mean i can do raids solo nope but i don't care to raid that is a boss fight i could care less about, for me games are a pass time and fun, if i am not having fun i quit plan and simple.

don't like the rules of the game don't blame the game or the players it's you all you.

Originally posted by Vocadi

Im not sure what games your playing that are being "ruined" by soloing.  As many have mentioned, its up to individual preference for a player to play a game the way they enjoy.  I prefer to solo, I find it more challening often times than not and that is fun for me. Grouping is less fun, generally because I prefer to do things my way.  

In every MMORPG I have played and thats from Meridian 59 and onward, I solo primarily. However each game has made a point of steering the player towards group activites by including group quests or instanced dungeons that require more than one player.

Its all in how the game is created. If people are given an option to play in a fashion that suits them, they will.

Well said, If people didnt want to solo they wouldnt. Something else ive allways found intresting is some say the scenarios in Warhammer ruined RVR the theory being people choose scenarios over RVR so nobody does its. So i guess some want not  only forced grouping but forced RVR as well.

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by pussaykat

I'm currently playing Final fantasy 4, 7th saga, chrono trigger, breath of fire 1 and some other old rpg. I enjoy those very much when my current mmog isn't delivering at the moment. Point is they don't make single player rpg anymore, it's all mmog. Either that or my store doesn't carry titles like that.

 

I've done something similar. Fired up Wizardry 8 and I have been playing that a lot lately. Thinking about picking up a second copy of Dungeon Lords and playing that multiplayer with my Wife.

Yeah me too, playing Titan Quest now.

 The problem is that MMOs don't encourage grouping. They make soloing more efficient these days than grouping and then later on force grouping. Both are bad things and both can be solved in the same way.

Encourage grouping by making it more fun, efficient and rewarding than solo'ing and people will group. It's that simple; people will do what they find most entertaining and rewarding to do.

In DaoC they put in an XP boost for grouping. The more people there were in a group the more XP everyone gained from every activity they did. In CoX they made missions much more rewarding the more people there were in a group that entered it. And once people get used to grouping because it's rewarding the more they will also group later on with people they have gotten to know.

Never force grouping, just make it a good idea to do it. Then everyone should be happy. Also remember to give rewards to people who help each other to level and do stuff, like if you power level friends. This is a good social activity that again reward and encourage grouping.

WaR was the worst case of all the MMOs I have played. First they made it impossible for people with different play times to groupo with each other because if there were any lvl difference then people would get no XP what so ever in a group both for high and low lvls. Secondly there were such a great reduction in XP from grouping that people that grouped were quickly passed by soloers in lvls. This were incredible stupid of mythic and drove off many daoc players who were used to having the social activity of the groups being rewarded by the game system instead of it being a penalty.

FFXI 'nuff said.

I am not sure about the everyone should be happy part.  Just as in life there are good and bad, in games there are good and bad.  The difference is you can't change to another life when you find something you don't like, but you can always change game if you find something you don't like.  IMO however, this is a fruitless effort and is just running away from .. well in this case. virtual reality.

If someone runs away from real life into the MMORPG world, then choose to run away from the virtual world too when something doesn't fit their ideal image, this is a never ending cycle.  Basically the problem here is largely about the player's personal problem than the game itself.

BTW, if a world exist that purely fits my image but have nothing to contradict me.  It is a boring world that is not worth living in.